My group has had two issues with this card, one real and one imagined:

(1) Multiple Calculations. In the unlikely event that more than one player draws enough of the blue deck that they each find a Calculations there is a limit of one Calculations card played per roll. (a) You can't expose a card in your hand unless you are playing it. (b) You are allowed to say you have a type of card in your hand, or even lie about it.

So, what if one player (an obvious unrevealed cylon or infiltrating leader with `cylons win') claims that they want to play a card after a die is rolled (Calculations is the only card that can change the value). Presumably this would cause the roll to change results so that something `bad' happens to the humans. If it is important then it forces any human player (actual human or infiltrating leader with `humans win') to also claim they want to play a calculations. Now, clearly, the current player must select a player to play first. If the human team is selected and plays a calculations then the cylon team gets to twiddle their thumbs because of the limit on the number of calculations that can be used.

Here's the problem. Under normal circumstances you are allowed to lie. Are you allowed to lie about wanting to play a skill card? Calculations are a limited resource, and every time the fleet jumps early at a population risk or a centurion is fired upon with the armory the cylons want the humans to use them up to convert 7s into 8s (to prevent them from becoming 6s). It's even possible (for example with Ellen/Leoben/Caprica/Adama) for a player to *know* that another player has a Calculations in their hand (also note that the three cards are uniquely tagged by numerical value if they show up in skill checks or are otherwise discarded).

(1') Similar to the above.

(non current player) ``I'd like to play a card before this skill check, it will make the skill check reckless''

(current player)``which one is it?''

(n.c.p.) ``Jury Rigged''

(c.p) ``Go ahead''

(n.c.p) plays Guts and Initiative or something else.

So the question is this: does the current players power to select the order of play extend to the card types? E.g. Players A, B, and C first have the option to play ``Jury Rigged'' then (in the same or different order) may play ``Guts and Initiative'' etc?

(2) Helo's reroll. Strategic planning presumably affects both rolls because ``it's really the same roll'' does this mean that Helo must choose to accept his roll before calculations are played?

We assume the answer to (1) is ``wow you play with a bunch of jerks that sit around thinking of pathological situations'' (we do), and (2) yes, Helo has to decide if he feels lucky with borderline rolls (he cannot choose to reroll because no one is *willing* to play a calculations even if they said they had one, nor can he reroll after letting someone play a Calculations).

From the way it is talked about in the Pegasus rulebook, it seems that if you have multiple people wanting to all play an effect at the same time it's ok that they show the card since in order to play it you have to show it. It would just bounce back to their hand if the current player chooses to allow a card to be played first which would not allow the other card to be played.

This isn't a massive violation of the Secrecy rules since you would only be able to show the card in a situation where you can actually play it.

Or more specifically the Current Player isn't determining the order of effects that might be played, he is determining the order of effects that are actually be played.

Plus I think you are abusing a set of Secrecy Rules which are already described as mere guidelines as a way to game the system, and largely missing the spirit or intent of the secrecy rules, which is only to create uncertainty and paranoia in the game, not to do annoying "gotcha" type abuses.

Just to expand on what I'm talking about, the Secrecy Rules are aimed at making it hard to prove your loyalty. I can say that someone is a Cylon, or that the Crisis card I put on the bottom was a bad one, but there is really no way for me to prove it.

The intent is not to allow players to game the system to screw other people out of actions.

Yah the rules back me up here:

Timing
If two or more players wish to play a card at the same
time, (such as two players wishing to use different Skill
Card abilities before resolving a Skill check), the current
player decides which player may play his card first. If a card
cannot be played as a result (for example if both cards were
Reckless – see page 9), it is returned to the hand of the
player who tried to play it.

This hardly ever comes up in our games... for the most part, we play that whoever's card hits the board first gets played... this way we avoid the whole "well, if you're going to do that cylon, then I'm going to do it too so I get picked" or vice versa reaction play, and the "well I'm going to play this to force it the humans to respond with one" play... you don't play a card for any other reason than you want it played. We just play with a very narrow meaning of what "at the same time" means, it keeps you on your toes and keeps arguments to a minimum, haha.

If we ever have a conflict on playing of cards like this, in the absence of a clear order, we either take precedence from other game sections and use the same order of play/play option as for skill checks OR if someone clearly does it first and others are obviously 'me too-ing' simply to block an action when they had no intent of playing we stick with the sole player. We prefer that second option and prefer to use the play order of playing only when multiple people genuinely conflict.

DCAnderson said:

The only secrecy rules I was refering to were the ones in the rule book. These are not guidelines but ``must be observed at all times.'' I agree that the above situations were described in a very game-y way (this was deliberate). The lattitude granted for players to discuss actions creates problems like this though. Ignoring the issue of ``reaction plays'' (perhaps it is appropriate to ask a player if they were going to play a card without the knowledge that someone else was going to do what they did, and make them stick with it) we still need the issue resolved.

Let's suppose that skill cards are placed face up for their effect and then subject to current player whim. Here's an example. An important skill check comes up and two players (A, and B) immediately place investigative committees on the board. Say that one is a 3 (by A) and the other *the* 5 (by B). Most of the time the current player will let the 3 take precedence and the 5 is returned to B's hand. This means that when the 5 eventually shows up the ``who played which cards'' game is dramatically simplified.

In the base game there wasn't much of a problem with this as there were only 2 uniquely identifiable cards (barring public knowledge of certain discard piles) that could return to a player's hand (ignoring Adama). The Pegasus expansion introduces an additional 15 (identifiable) cards which can bounce back to a player's hand.

DCAnderson said:

I´m quite sure my group would never allow a player to show his cards before playing them. You state that since they where going to anyway there´s no harm in doing so, but that means you cut a potential cylon strategy:

"sure I have a strategic planning. Set the FTL drive in motion we have a 50/50 chance of making it. Does odds are OK, right?"

Whenever possible we try to eliminate showing our cards to each other as a matter of course. We´ve even contemplated having players discard if accidentally showing off cards and have them draw the same amount to keep players even more in the dark.

At no time do I think should you be able to know what other people have in their hands as a matter of fact. Having someone say "I got a repair/excecutive order/#card headline#" is considered OK (also to lie about it) if it is relevant to the situation only.

Anyways this way is what makes the game fun for us because it keeps people guessing and gives the cylons a chance to stay hidden if they´re clever enough.

Nerdmeister said:

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying.

I'm saying that any time there is a chance to play an interrupt everyone who wants to play one shows the card, but only when it is actually time to play, not before.

So the FTL thing still works since you can't actually show the Strategic Planning till the the roll for FTL is being made, and by then it is already to late because it has been activated.