Has anyone actually used the rules for Sabacc that appear in Suns of Fortune and Under a Black Sun?

Do they work well?

Are there any snags?

Any suggestions to make things easier to keep track of, and keep it interesting?

Do you roll everything in sight, or keep opponent rolls hidden?

I ran a session that included Sabaac on the Row yesterday!

We were discussing the game post-session and were generally pleased with it. The only issue we had was with cheating actually making the check more difficult. Both NPC and PC groups had an experienced cheater among their ranks, but most of the time the PC would elect to use the poorer dice pool because it wouldn't upgrade a purple to red.

I kept the opponent's rolls hidden. I got a piece of paper and listed the NPC players at the table, keeping track of their results each round and responding accordingly when they busted they'd back out of the game.

The pacing was great. The PCs were in possession of two stolen Imperial speeder bikes. They wanted to get rid of them as fast as they could. They negotiated the sale of these bikes with Catrinna over a sabaac table. After each hand of sabaac there would be some conversation, only a minute or two, where they'd slowly pick away at information about each other, about their goals, the business at hand, and eventually when the PCs were indebted to her, they discussed a job!

The inclusion of the force die was awesome. Roll your dice pool, resolve the pool aka cancel things out, then roll the force die and apply the changes. The reason you do it in this order is so if you had equal successes and failures, they'd cancel and when you roll the force die, it applies to what remains.

Oh, so you resolve the dice results BEFORE you alter the results with the Force die? I thought you resolved after the Force die adjustments.

What I seem to be getting stuck on, and it may not be possible to work round, is its all a game of chance, theres no strategy the PCs can draw on beside cheating.

IF Sabacc is meant to be the SW equivalent of Poker, wheres the bluff and upping the bet?

Only one person can win in each hand right? The one with the most Successes?

What happens if there is not enough money in the hand pot to pay out to the winning player?

How do you deal with Draws? (Split pot?)

EDIT:
What happens if you roll Triumph in the first hand? Game Over?

What happens if two players roll Triumph in the same hand?

Players who cannot roll a Yellow CANNOT win the game? They can never roll a Triumph

What if you roll 2 force die, and the pips cancel (Dark and Light) and you apply the results after... perhaps that could represent upping the ante?

Me (GM) and my group have played the modular encounter "Sabbac Game on the Row" in the Suns of Fortune book and I thought I would share my thoughts on the sabbac rules.

First of all, my group generally enjoyed the game, and we went on playing sabbac for a large part of that night's roleplaying session. As I said, the rules can make for a really fun game, but I did have a couple of fairly big issues with the rules as written. I do not know if I have misinterpreted the rules, or if the developer did not playtest them enough before print. Anyway, here are my issues. Please chime in if you agree or if someone can bring some clarity to these issues

1. The force die to modify the roll.

The problem that I had with the force die modifier (although I really like it in theory as to mix up the game) is that it works poorly if your players are not really skilled at Sabbac (i.e. a good Cool, Deception, Skulduggery skill etc.). The PC playing the Sabbac in my group had a Cunning of 3 and a Cool of 2. This might result in an avarage, say, 2 successes or failures and a couple of advantage or threats (just an example...no real statistics considered). A single roll of the force die in most cases flipped the whole result for the player. If the PC had successes, these turned to failures and vice versa. We found that the force die completely overturned the results.

So my main problems with the force die is: if your PC is not really skilled...it has too a dramatic impact on the results. Or am I doing it wrong?

The other thing with the force dice is the kind of logical weird...thing... The force die is supposed (according to page 119 in SoF) reflect the dynamic och unpredictable nature och a game of chance like sabbac. But since RPG are already guided by dice...isn't the force die just laying another layer of chance on a first layer of chance (as RPG games are already decided by chance/dice)? Kind of making it like a hat on a hat...

2. Fixed difficulty or opposed check (the potential dramatic effect of the RED DIE ).

I had some difficulties with deciphering when the dice pool should be rolled against a set value or another NPC:s skill.

When using a set value = no problems. Everyone rolls against lets say 2 purple dice. The PC or NPC with most successes wins.

When rollings as a opposed chek = problems encountered! Since the PC is rolling against another NPC, provided that that NPC has some skill in Cool (or other applying skill) at least one red die is going to be in the dice pool. Because a single * despair * result causes the PC to lose the entire game (se table 4-2 on page 119), it comes off terribly unbalanced. Or am I thinking the wrong way about this? How have other groups interpreted this rule regarind the * despair * result in Sabbac?

Best regards!

The effect of the force die is too much for my taste whether the player is skilled or not. Playing Sabacc for high stakes, as written, is pretty much like flipping coins.

As discussed above, the other thing I would do is make the results of a despair more in line with the potential advantages of a triumph.

It can be exciting, with the intervention of the GM. The one high stakes game played in our campaign was very exciting, but it was still 50:50 at the end which of the two remaining players would win. Luckily I rolled a triumph at the end!

The rules in Suns of Fortune (p.119) are most advanced of the various rules published so far, with suggestions for play against a fixed difficulty, or (much more difficult) opposed check against a good NPC.

OK, so heres whats irking me with the rules as written.

If you are the first player, in the first hand, making the first roll of the game.... and you roll a triumph. You win the game. (How boring).

With the Force Die mechanic, your hand is going to chance. For the better or worse. it WILL Change. There are no blanks on a Force Die.

Theres no 'betting' except at the start of each hand, no upping the ante, no calling a bluff, no out maneuvering your opponent.

All difficulty is set for all players. You are playing the game, not your opponents.

The base pool is based on Cool. While Perception, Deception, Skulduggery would all be valid skill sets you can use without cheating. (They could be used in cheating, but they dont HAVE to be cheating).

If you are not good with Cool, you will suck at the game. IN fact, if you have NO Ranks in any of the skills RAW, you CANNOT win, without spending destiny points to get a 1 in 12 chance of winning.

If I understand the rules correctly, for every success you have left over at the end of the hand, you win the value of your hand bet back. Which means if every player has 2 successes left at the end of the hand, they all win double their hand bet value back… if it’s the first hand, that means DOUBLE THE VALUE OF THE HAND POT! (Er what?)

So… heres what I was thinking. Its based abit on Poker.

Step 1: You buy into the game. This is a set value and becomes the ‘Sabacc Pot’ and the overall winner wins this pot. You then sit down at the table with a Personal Pot (Which is the credits you start the game with)

Step 2: You decide your playing strategy, using Cool or Deception and generate your dice pool using those stats, difficulty based on the level of the game (Variable).

Step 3: Like Poker, the Person to the dealers left (or right, whichever) makes a bet, this goes into the Hand Pot. (If you wish, you could go full poker and have the next player make twice the bet… Big and Small blind)

Step 4: Everyone rolls their dice pool and resolves the results, leaving them on the table.

Step 5: The third player then decides if they want to play into this hand, equalling or exceeding the bet of player 2 (As with Poker). Continue until all players have folded that hand, or everyone has an equal bet.. limit to once round the table unless in a custom game or high stakes.

Step 6: Roll TWO Force dice. Light Pips Cancel Dark pips, resulting pips modify your dice pool results as per the RAW (So your hand may go up, or down, or remain the same).

Step 7: Determine Hand Winner (If any). Whoever has the most successes wins the Hand Pot. If NOONE wins, the Hand Pot goes into the Sabacc Pot.

Continue until a winner is found, that is the player who has NOT run out of credits. They win the game, and the Sabacc Pot.

Cheating: IF a player wishes to cheat, they may make their Dice Pool from Skulduggery or Computers, they Upgrade the difficulty of the roll (Despair results in being caught), but may also add a Boost dice to their roll (to simulate the better odds of winning)

Spending advantage and threat remains as RAW. Players who reach their Strain Threshold bomb out, but are not rendered unconscious.

Problems with this system:

Games could go on and on and on and on and on.

Not sure how to integrate Triumph into this particular system.

Others I cant pin down.

Suggestions welcome!

The Sabacc rules are written for a GM to use if you want to include a game of Sabacc in your adventure. If you intend to make the adventure about Sabacc, you'll want rules that are far more detailed and granular. But for something like "I sit down and play a hand of Sabacc while we wait for our contact to arrive". one roll and done is all you'll need.

Perhaps your right there and I'm over complicating things

But my test rolls consistently had the first player win the game. Making the whole scene pointless

I'd like the system to support some kind of give and take. Back and forth before a winner can be declared. Otherwise it becomes a tiny single dice roll and my players might feel cheated that the games over the second it starts because the first player rolled a triumph and the players are unable to due to no yellow dice (potentially)

Hmmm I think I need to think on this some more

That holo cube game includes a period of upping the bet. Next time I play Sabaac I will include that, essentially making a hand of Sabaac 2 die rolls.

1. Ante.

2. Roll (first cards are dealt)

3. Banter.

4. Bet.

5. Roll (last cards are dealt)

6. Resolve and Banter.

Rinse and repeat.

Yes, you can roll a Triumph and SABAAC! at any time in those 2 rolls, but if you have more than one card player get a Sabaac in the same hand, they split the pot. That's pretty much how black jack is done and it is possible for two players to blackjack at the same time, I believe.

Whats still getting me, is the fact if you do no roll any yellow dice, you cannot win. As you cannot roll a Triumph.

In the modular Encounter in Suns of Fortune, two of the players have no ranks in Cool... they are unable to win. Granted, they are in on the scam, so narrativly, they may not be there to win, but still..

Short of allowing ALL players to upgrade a dice on all dice rolls for free, they need to spend Destiny points to win, and theres a limit on that... assuming they even have any to spend (My last session, they had none as they rolled all Dark Side points).

Even if they do get an upgrade, they could win on the first dice roll. Which could make a short intense scene pointless... they sit down... win the game on the first roll. Seems a waste.

The characters you are referring to use Deception instead of Cool.

The characters you are referring to use Deception instead of Cool.

Fair point, I missed that.

However, RAW is that if you are cheating, you use Deception, or Computers, or Skulduggery.

If you have no ranks in Cool, and do not want to cheat, you cannot win, as you cannot get a Triumph.

So unless you assume that using Deception (to Bluff), is not cheating, and hope you have a rank in Cool or Deception, you have no chance.

Skulduggery could possible be used to bluff as well, so it could be taken both ways.

Computers is clearly cheating, as it would be affecting the computing side of the game cards.

But my concern still remains.... that someone could sit down to a high stakes, high value, important game... and win with the very first dice roll.

Not to mention what happens if two people roll Triumphs.. can they both win the game?

When two people get a blackjack they split the pot - same in this case. Two players triumphing split the pot.

You can get a blackjack on the first hand in reality too.

I had the pot build over time, but it was a challenge, as each additional success wins back another wager's worth for all players. Increasing the ante also helps. The game became tense because increasingly high wagers were being suggested. A triumph when the ante was 100 a piece isn't as impactful as 5 hands later when the ante is 500 a piece.

I see where you are coming from... but I think you are talking about the Hand? Not 'The Game'

Theres the Hand Pot and the Sabacc Pot.

A Triumph wins the Sabacc pot... and the whole game. Not just the hand.

The whole "winning your stake x success" also annoys me... as it could mean multiple players winning multiple times their wager back... which may be more than the Hand Pot total... then what?

Unless... I am confusing myself, and there is only one pot. But even then, a Triumph ends the game.

Yes, "sabaac!" aka triumph wins everything in the pot. If 2 people cry "sabaac!" in the same round, they split the pot.

If no one gets a sabaac, whatever remains in the pot after people get their wagers back plus whatever successes, etc. remains and everyone ante's again.

At the time that Catrinna cheated to get her "sabaac!" there was 10k in the pot. All hers.

Think of the "bet" amount as simply that... the standard amount of a single bet or a raise. There will be multiple of these, usually, over the course of each hand.

'Winning the game' too early is pointless - there isn't any money in the pot yet!

A gambler wants to consistently win money over time (although, these rules are more for a short intense high stakes game, or to summarize a duration of play). So if you were playing 5 others all of the same skill, you might expect to win one hand in 6. So the potential prize for a hand should be at or more than 5 or 6 times what you would lose in a normal hand where you play for awhile then drop out most hands.

My GM usually just says, "make a roll, and you can't win more than X amount fleecing other tourists! If you want to play real gamblers, let me know!" (They don't usually let me play with ship money!)