Should the Avenger ShuriCat be 2d10 in the same fashion that a space marine bolt weapon is 2d10? We're given the stats for a normal shurikan catapult in a couple of sources, but Dire Avengers specifically use an "upgraded" version of the standard catapult (it's even referenced in the Creature's Anathema but no stats are given for it specifically).

BrotherHostower said:

The stats for an Avenger Shuriken Catapult are in Creatures Anathema, actually; they're given on page 85. It has, compared to the standard Shuriken Catapult in Disciples of the Dark Gods, an extra 20m of range and the Tearing quality.

What he said. These weapons are fairly lacking compared to bolt weapons, and theor only real advantage is lots of autofire and huge ammo capacity.

The Dark Eldar weapons are even worse... identical but with almost no damage, if decent penetration and tearing when autofiring.

Friend of the Dork said:

And a superior Pen value.

Bear in mind that their 40k stats abstract a high rate-of-fire into 2 higher-damage shots. An individual shuriken shouldn't be really dealing the same sort of damage as a bolter (though the Avenger ones are close - one damage behind the non-Astartes bolter, and one Pen ahead). Even the basic Shuriken Catapult is utterly superior to the Autogun in every way save for range (more damage, enough Pen to make anything less than the best armours in the game worthless, great rate of fire, reliable, large ammo capacity...), so they're not excellent weapons. Just because they're not quite on par with Bolters (and between decent damage, great Pen for an anti-personnel weapon, and a high rate of fire, they're hardly lightweights by comparison) does not make a weapon weak.

My only issue (and thanks for pointing out the difference, I must've been too tired to notice the upgraded range/pen when I looked at both *facepalm*), is that Dire Avengers (and any other aspect warrior out there) are the Eldar equivalent of a space marine... and their weapons are, with the exception of rolling righteous fury, unable to harm one.

The splinter rifle is... very weak, but then again, it has the stats of a hellgun in reg 40k which is a lasgun with some armor pen, so, sadly, their splinter weapons are right on, but the shurikan catapult and even the orc slugga/shoota, are woefully under powered in comparisson... not like the orcs are really going to hit with their sluggas/shootas, but that's beside the point. Just using the brother-sgt out of PtU, without talents just armor and toughness bonus, you would need to roll and confirm a righteous fury to do even a single point of damage to him with the catapult (you would need to roll a 7 or better on the righteous fury to do the same damage from the orc weapons). I understand the game's not meant to have space marine protagonists but... when they do the book that introduces them as playable, these weapons are not going to be anywhere near balanced.

Also, randomly, anyone else notice that warp beasts natural weapons have the warp quality, and bloodletter's natural weapons have the warp quality... but none of the other "standard" daemons natural weapons have it (daemonettes, horrors, plaguebearers).

One more thing... since they've made the distinction between a bolter, and a space marine bolter, would there be one between a heavy bolter, and a space marine heavy bolter y'think?

Space Marine Bolter: 2d10X, Pen 5, Tearing

So I would make the Heavy Varient:

3d10X, Pen 6, Tearing

BrotherHostower said:

Remember - always remember - that we don't have stats for a 'typical' Space Marine. The only stats we have so far are those for an extremely above-average Deathwatch Veteran who by all rights would be wearing Terminator Armour were he still operating with his Chapter. He's not just a standard Battle Brother by any stretch of the imagination, as demonstrated by his stats and the quality of his equipment. His armour should really be considered Artificier Armour rather than normal Power Armour, given how much more effective it is.

The idea that something deemed "equivalent to a Space Marine" should be gunning down Astartes left-right-and-centre is a fallacy, IMO. Space Marines themselves don't fare that well against other Space Marines, so why should anyone else. They're an example of warriors whose resilience and armour (especially their armour) have developed beyond the capacity of any standard-issue weaponry to easily overcome. Consider the 2d10X Pen 5 Tearing Bolter used by the Astartes - against even a low-end TB6, AP8 marine (a new Initiate, brand new in his power armour), the maximum damage for a single hit inflicted is 11 wounds, while the average is about 3 wounds - not exactly astounding, and reduced even further by a paragon specimen of Astartesness like Brother Sergeant Agamorr of the Deathwatch (maximum per hit against the body 5 wounds, average cannot harm him). An Avenger Shuriken Catapult (1d10+6R, Pen 6 Tearing - the Dire Avenger has Mighty Shot which adds +2 damage) will deal 8 at maximum and 5 on average... but it hits far more often (high BS troops + autofire weapons = lots of hits), meaning that a burst of fire from a Dire Avenger actually stands a reasonable chance of bringing down even a TB6, AP8 target in a single round of shooting (though again, an Agamorr-like Astartes hero fares far better - maximum 2 wounds per hit vs the body, average cannot harm him).

I'd say that it's appropriately comparable. Generally speaking, though, if you want a Space Marine gone, you use a light anti-tank weapon.

ok, I amend my previous statement of wondering if a dire avenger shurikan cat could hurt a space marine. My pcs are now terrified of their dire avenger "companion"'s shurikat at the moment for the sheer damage it unleashes. Long story short, ok he could probably rip BS Ag a new one the way I was rolling last night... especially since Ag doesn't have the dodge skill. I'd say a squad of these guys, always going first (dear lord unnatural agility + lightning reflexes) would do serious damage even to a "paragon of space mariness" like Ag. It just LOOKS bad on paper.

By the by, that armor is MOST likely not artificer, it's just marked in his equipment as astartes power armor, just like his bolt pistol and thunderhammer are simply astartes. Fantasy Flight & BlackIndustries before it has clearly stated, astartes gear is better than normal human use gear, bolt pistol (of all varieties) compaired to the "astartes bolt pistol".

BrotherHostower said:

The man who wrote the book that Agamorr is in (TS Luikart, an occasional poster on these forums) said that it was artificer armour. That's good enough for me. Given that, technically, Artificer armour is just really, really well made Astartes power armour (and that the armour values it grants are closer to those of Ork Mega Armour as described in Creatures Anathema than to Power Armour), the way it's named in Purge the Unclean is a non-issue, IMO.

BrotherHostower said:

The bolt pistol is entirely mundane, by Astartes standards, I won't dispute that. The Thunder Hammer is an Astartes-only weapon anyway (the force it unleashes on impact would send a lesser man flying - there's a reason they're most commonly carried by Terminators), but I did feel that those stats were a little weak (I tend towards using the stats of a Power Fist with the Shocking quality and a minimum strength bonus requirement of 8). Even so, the fact that he's carrying a Thunder Hammer suggests that he's not average in any way - those things aren't handed out like party favours, afterall.

Actually, the fluff behind Artificer Armor has changed in the new SM Codex. While originally it was simply very well made power armor, now it apparently incorporates "sophisticated damage control systems" and "superdense construction materials." Also, Techmarine armor is Artificer grade because of the generations of modifications they've made to it. So Artificer Armor is less of a skill thing and more of a tech thing.

Phoenix said:

Which was published after Purge the Unclean was written, so any decisions made during the creation of that NPC (the book was written in late 2007, remember) could not have known about additions or alterations to the background made later.

The point here is that (according to my recollections), TS Luikart noted in a post on either this forum, or the previous FFG forums, that Brother-Sergeant Agamorr's armour was meant to be Artificer armour, rather than simply power armour.

The man who wrote the book that Agamorr is in (TS Luikart, an occasional poster on these forums) said that it was artificer armour. That's good enough for me. Given that, technically, Artificer armour is just really, really well made Astartes power armour (and that the armour values it grants are closer to those of Ork Mega Armour as described in Creatures Anathema than to Power Armour), the way it's named in Purge the Unclean is a non-issue, IMO.

Also, that picture of BS Ag is clearly not standard MK7 armour. He's not wearing the helmet but that's clearly at least MK8 chest peice and way more intricate to boot.

The Thunder Hammer is an Astartes-only weapon anyway (the force it unleashes on impact would send a lesser man flying - there's a reason they're most commonly carried by Terminators), but I did feel that those stats were a little weak (I tend towards using the stats of a Power Fist with the Shocking quality and a minimum strength bonus requirement of 8).

That hammer is teh ****, and that would be the direct translation from the TT. But then when they do officially put up rules they are so rarely direct translations, but im sure there's additional damage to be done they used (read means nothing) to be monsterous in previous editions and I've got a feeling they have additional vehicle pen these days. I'm not saying my version is going to be any closer BTW.

Even so, the fact that he's carrying a Thunder Hammer suggests that he's not average in any way - those things aren't handed out like party favours, afterall.

Still only available for Characters and Terminators aren't they. Anywho that was a lengthy digression so i'll stop now.