See, turrets don't bother me too much, and it kind of makes sense for bigger bigger ships to have some sort of 360 degree protection. Three shots on the Falcon and the Decimator are about right.

Other ships having to spend points to get that type of protection also kind of makes sense.

What doesn't make sense, and makes me just a little tad angry, is how the buggery does the Falcon fire its turret and not shoot the main sensor antenna to bits?

Cheers

Baaa

Let them have their turrets. The Tie Punisher will punish them for that.

What if they behaved more like real turrets? Real turrets cannot cover 360 degrees simultaneously, they have to rotate which takes time. What if turreted ships had a normal size arc and players had to choose which direction (left, right, forward, back) it was facing each turn? I was thinking it could be decided at the start of the activation phase like decloak so that they havent seen where ships have moved to yet. This would require turreted ships to try and predict their enemies positioning.

Haven't really put a lot of thought into how balanced it would be, and its not a solution I expect to ever happen as it would require changes to the cardboard pieces (extending firing arcs to make a full X for all 4 directions) unless people just eyeball non forward arcs. But I think it could have been an interesting mechanic. Might try house ruling it to see how it works.

Really all it needs to not be garbage is player input

Player input from the controlling player would have to angle the turret (p preferably during activation like new decloak to avoid even MORE solo)

Input from the defending player would be some actual benefit to strategic/tactical manuevering. Non-title yt 2400s, title w/hlc yt 2400s, and autothrusters are good examples.

I suspect the k is taking the title less yt 2400 approach

The only thing I would change about turrets is to only give an extra attack die at range 1 if it is inside their primary arc. If they had done that, auto thrusters may not have needed to be put in the game at all.

Turret weapons have been a part of the Star Wars universe since the first movie very clearly and with iconic movie footage to prove it!

I am sorry if you feel otherwise but that will probably not change either since turrets earn their place in this game not just by being in the movies, but also the fact that they are just a necessary thing to realize X-Wing as a game. How would you make the Falcon if not with a turret. It had one, period!

Turrets dont need a change, nor do turret primary weapons gamewise. All turret weapons pay a steep price for having one, and if anyone can't make up for that with his flying or listbuilding skills, well then maybe they should get better at the game or accept the fact that turret ships should also be playable and stand a chance!

What do some people actually want? They want turret nerfs, in a meta where turrets are not even doninant. Why? I just don't get this!

I have a feeling people don't read my posts

I never said anything about turrets as a concept, just the way they are implemented in the game is piss poor and lazy game design

the way turrets are integrated into the game is not analogous to star wars turrets themselves

I don't understand how people can't distinguish the two.

I love Han Solo and the Millennium Falcon as irreplaceable parts of my childhood and as just really awesome things, but the "han solo" in X-wing miniatures a lazy, dumbed down version of the game that makes me feel like Ive been teleported out of my nuanced tactical game and back into $40k

if there was literally any kind of benefit to engaging turrets in different manners or at different angles, any kind of significance to your gameplay decisions, then there'd be at least a sign that there is some kind of strategic element to all the dice rolling, but unless you're playing with thrusters you're getting jack **** and more/less dice.

thank rngesus almighty FFG accounted for the sheer paint-drying boredom of 360 fire in Armada by making every arc distinct and important (or incredibly limited in the case of squadrons), or that'd be one hell of a snorefest that really wouldn't need players, just two RNGs going at it.

so, again, the problem with (primary weapon) turrets have nothing to do with balance

they are a poorly designed and lazy mechanic that do not do this great game justice.

and, again, the k-wing seems to be dodging this ill-conceived ability by having a mere 2 die primary and an implicit focus on ordinance and bombs

In Armada you also get to fire twice which makes the whole difference to this concept.

I really don't know how else you would implement turrets. They just fire all around and that's all there is about them. Anything else would be illogical too. Limited turret arcs are already present as Auxiliary arcs, so that's covered too!

I like the K-Wing. I like that there is a small ship with a primary turret weapon. I expect the K-Wing to be expensive. I would guess that it will be somewhere around 30 points, before you equip any ordnance. So likely to be highly expensive if loaded up.

Looks like the PS2 will be 23 or maybe 22 points.

Twin Laser Turret card.

Gives me all the excuse I need to shout "AHM FIRIN' ME LAZORS" with my Y-Wings.

In Armada you also get to fire twice which makes the whole difference to this concept.

I really don't know how else you would implement turrets. They just fire all around and that's all there is about them. Anything else would be illogical too. Limited turret arcs are already present as Auxiliary arcs, so that's covered too!

If i understand you well, you want firing arcs on turrets that kinda limit where you can shoot... But that would not change anything since you only fire a turret once per turn normally (bar gunner that allows to switch targets).

it would change everything

there is no rule that is even close to the idiocy of turrets. Some love saying the auxillary arcs are somehow half a turret, but that line of thinking is bull. Turrets have literally infinitely more coverage than every other ship because there is no degree beyond the 360th. The "fire once per turn" really has nothing to do with the discussion. The problem with turrets is that they allow absolutely minimal player influence in their mechanics because they will always have the opportunity to fire on any target not in base-to-base with the turret which ideals to stale, dice-driven games in what is supposed to be a tactical miniature game.

The ideal solution would have been to introduce large base turrets with four 90 degree firing arcs and a turret token to denote facing. Every turn, at the same time int agent or de-cloaking triggers, the player could change the turret's facing by moving the token to an adjacent arc. Sadly, the problem has evolved past the point where that is a reasonable fix.

The practical solution would be to remove out of arc range 1 bonuses or to introduce the auto-thrusters out-of-arc benefit as a base rule so that facing actually mattered without a very select upgrade.

Unfortunately, FFG has been rigid about erratas, so all we have is the hope that they won't screw the pooch so hard going forward. Wave 5 was a good attempt, but because the decimator's only positioning related abilities were oicuun and chiri, bombs and torps (and FFg's history of ordinance made that ion torp they so proudly introduced with that expansion so woefully ineffectual) it just fell into the same fetid niche that the YT-1300 did.

They have been adapting very well, though. S&V has no primary turrets even with Wave 7, which really is the best solution to the current problem, and the K-wing heavily emphasizes its primary turret. Hell, its recently spoiled SLAM action is all about positioning between the extra maneuvers, bombs, and completely inability to use that idiotic 360 attack after the action.

The K wing's only guns are IN freaking turrets. What the heck did you expect?

Really all it needs to not be garbage is player input

Player input from the controlling player would have to angle the turret (p preferably during activation like new decloak to avoid even MORE solo)

Play this some time. It's awful. Not fun and cumbersome.

Eh, I don't see how angling the turret would improve the experience. Given that the complained about ships (The Falcon, Outrider, and Decimator) have 2 turrets, they'd have two rotating arcs, and if you seriously can't get a ship in arc with that you are doing something seriously wrong. So all it'd do is hurt the turret upgrade slot, which isn't exactly dominating the metagame.

(also just noticed Hound's Tooth has a 180 degree front arc, how weird is that ?)

It looks like it has a standard primary arc and an auxiliary arc that extends out to 180 degrees.

Eh, I don't see how angling the turret would improve the experience. Given that the complained about ships (The Falcon, Outrider, and Decimator) have 2 turrets, they'd have two rotating arcs, and if you seriously can't get a ship in arc with that you are doing something seriously wrong. So all it'd do is hurt the turret upgrade slot, which isn't exactly dominating the metagame.

Pretty much this. And as Fickled already said himself.

Turrets are not too strong, so why would you introduce such a cumbersone mechanic to a well-working game?

Also these ships are not **** battleships that need a minute to traverse a turret. In the time a fighter maneuvers, a turret would also have turned!

Eh, I don't see how angling the turret would improve the experience. Given that the complained about ships (The Falcon, Outrider, and Decimator) have 2 turrets, they'd have two rotating arcs, and if you seriously can't get a ship in arc with that you are doing something seriously wrong. So all it'd do is hurt the turret upgrade slot, which isn't exactly dominating the metagame.

Pretty much this. And as Fickled already said himself.

Turrets are not too strong, so why would you introduce such a cumbersone mechanic to a well-working game?

Also these ships are not **** battleships that need a minute to traverse a turret. In the time a fighter maneuvers, a turret would also have turned!

I fail to see how moving a single token around four arcs would be cumbersome. It's not exactly rocket science. The only real problem with it is that it is logistically improbable to issue corrected bases for all the ships that need it, plus FFG's policy to never fix things in retrospect. Sadly, we'll probably never see it come to pass on that basis.

Any objections based on lore are basically irrelevant, or we'll never hear the end of how the Tie Defender should turn better and should fire its ion simultaneously or how the X-wing is not properly represented and ordinance is all a crock of ****... Gameplay, above anything, is the #1 priority. Otherwise, your two turret Yt-2400 and VT-49 would be getting 2 attacks and we'd be in twice as much ****. There is very good reason why they don't

as to why, I already said so several times. Turrets diminish an otherwise well-working game. I hope the turret-less presence of scum and the 2-dice/SLAM K-wing are signs that FFG realized that their efforts to limit primary weapon turrets in wave 5 failed and are aiming not to repeat similar mistakes.

What doesn't make sense, and makes me just a little tad angry, is how the buggery does the Falcon fire its turret and not shoot the main sensor antenna to bits?

"IF var(PointingAtSensorDish) THEN proc(Don'tBloodyFireTheLasers)".

What doesn't make sense, and makes me just a little tad angry, is how the buggery does the Falcon fire its turret and not shoot the main sensor antenna to bits?

If fighters in WW1 managed to shoot machine-guns through their own spinning propeller a hundred years ago, I'm pretty sure that the software on the Falcon is capable of including a line of code like:

"IF var(PointingAtSensorDish) THEN proc(Don'tBloodyFireTheLasers)".

But surely that would mean that the Falcon's turret doesn't have a 360 arc?

Cheers

Baaa

If fighters in WW1 managed to shoot machine-guns through their own spinning propeller a hundred years ago, I'm pretty sure that the software on the Falcon is capable of including a line of code like:

"IF var(PointingAtSensorDish) THEN proc(Don'tBloodyFireTheLasers)".

But surely that would mean that the Falcon's turret doesn't have a 360 arc?

b) The tiny blind spot that the dish causes the dorsal turret can be alleviated by the Falcon doing something as simple as rolling, like, ten degrees toward the thing it wants to shoot at.

c) If we're drilling down to this level of nit-picky fidelity, how come the fixed-forward guns on the X-Wing and TIE fighter have a 90-degree firing arc?

d) Because, at the end of the day, firing arcs in this game are a bit of a hand-wavey abstraction, in the same way that manoeuvre templates and ship bases are.

Really all it needs to not be garbage is player input

Player input from the controlling player would have to angle the turret (p preferably during activation like new decloak to avoid even MORE solo)

Play this some time. It's awful. Not fun and cumbersome.

As opposed to playing against turret ships? which is often awful, not fun and cumbersome.

a) The ventral guns aren't obstructed by the sensor array.

b) The tiny blind spot that the dish causes the dorsal turret can be alleviated by the Falcon doing something as simple as rolling, like, ten degrees toward the thing it wants to shoot at.

c) If we're drilling down to this level of nit-picky fidelity, how come the fixed-forward guns on the X-Wing and TIE fighter have a 90-degree firing arc?

d) Because, at the end of the day, firing arcs in this game are a bit of a hand-wavey abstraction, in the same way that manoeuvre templates and ship bases are.

e) Chill.

e) Chill.

I will second this the moment it is... "Did we need another 3 attack turret." especially if in reference to a large ship.

I'm worried we'll see one in Scum - since the rebels have one and the Imps have one - so far I'm liking the 180 arc on the hounds tooth, with any luck, Scum will be king of the AuxArcs

As for the K-wing, it looks like it also comes with a turret upgrade card - So - as for turret upgrades, yes, yes we do need more turrets.

If fighters in WW1 managed to shoot machine-guns through their own spinning propeller a hundred years ago, I'm pretty sure that the software on the Falcon is capable of including a line of code like:"IF var(PointingAtSensorDish) THEN proc(Don'tBloodyFireTheLasers)".

But surely that would mean that the Falcon's turret doesn't have a 360 arc?

a) The ventral guns aren't obstructed by the sensor array.b) The tiny blind spot that the dish causes the dorsal turret can be alleviated by the Falcon doing something as simple as rolling, like, ten degrees toward the thing it wants to shoot at.c) If we're drilling down to this level of nit-picky fidelity, how come the fixed-forward guns on the X-Wing and TIE fighter have a 90-degree firing arc?d) Because, at the end of the day, firing arcs in this game are a bit of a hand-wavey abstraction, in the same way that manoeuvre templates and ship bases are.

Guns in star wars Arnt fixed forward there is some movement to increase field of fire, x-wings have less than ties but they can adjust a few degrees so I don't think the arc is too bad.

Scum is due a 360° primary turret and I bet will get one in the game next wave.

Fickle what is your favorite ship in the game and favorite pilot in the game? Like if you had to only pick one to play for the rest of your life what would it be?

Scum isn't due anything, and I don't think anyone has anything wrong enough to deserve another large base, primary weapon turret to cheapen their game experience

I think the large base auxiliary arc ships (and the single arc aggressors) are a far more elegant implementation of fat ship than the YT and its many, many ripoffs because they put the focus on the players' positioning more-so than dice, allowing games to be one and lost based on player decisions rather than simply being unable to beat the superior stats and action economy of a ship that doesn't care where you are.

As for my favorite ship, I don't have one. It changes based on what I'm excited for (dat Advance, currently) and what I feel like playing on a particular day. Only ship I can spam is the Tie Fighter, but the Tie Swarm isn't a list you can break out casually because managing seven+ ships is hard work

Wave 7 looks nice, too! I'm hoping the Hound's Tooth is Scum's turret, because it is far more fascinating than a Devastator and I really want to get my hands on it. The Punisher doesn't excite me (too much bomber) but I'm willing to give it a spin. The K-wing has really grown on me and I'm excited to see what else it can do. Thankfully, its primary turret has been significantly downplayed as predicted, so I can use it without feeling dead inside