put simply, fat turret hate is more because they deny the opposing player the opportunity to do much of anything meaningful outside of aligning arcs and throwing dice. Even blocking is questionably useful because you need as much dice as you can to get through the always on offense an defense and the action denial gives you minimal benefit for voiding the shot unless it stop the turret cold in front of your squad or bang smack on an asteroid.

FFG has apparently been learning from their initial mistake, though. Wave 5 had an attempt to make turrets more interesting by emphasizing their positioning over their fatness (oicunn's ability and chiraneau's range limitation, the mara jade & ruthlessness upgrade and the bomb slot, plus the YT-2400 packing arc-locked cannons on an awful 2-dice primary and the "doughnut hole" created by the outrider HLC combo), it just wasn't enough.

Again, though, the K-wing promises to side-step every single issue related to fat turrets minus having the horrible turret rule (though even that is diluted by a mere 2 die base). Until more of wave 7 is spoiled, ordinance continues to be positioning dependent (Front-arc aside from Nera, and needs to have a target-lock or focus to fire placing importance on being able to preform actions) and bombs are incredibly positioning dependent, the seismics even going so far as to ignore dice entirely.

The implicit emphasis on positioning will make the k-wing a far more interesting ship to try to enable/avoid than an overweight sack of dice

My guess would be that this is an integrated turret weapon and therefore the turret option is only limited to max range 2

You know, I really hate to be the voice of reason for what is unquestionably the single sh*ttiest mechanic in the game and the sole ability that is keeping X-wing from reaching its full potential as an unbelievably fun experience...but

1.) small base (can't move further than your small bases, nor can it abuse boost)

2.) dial unknown (as long as it isn't a dial that has ******* everything, it won't be as easy to abuse)

3.) 2 die attack (essentially worthless, especially if the price is high)

4.) in a wave focused on 2ndary weapons (ordinance) and apparently bombers, the primary turret should (if the designers are even considering doing their jobs with even the least bit of consideration) be playing 2nd or 3rd fiddle to the ship's other capabilities

from what little I can make out, the k-wing is 2 1 5 4 which is basically B-wing level survivability with noticeably worse offense

even if it gets a crew slot for 3po, it's not going to be a powerful turret

(also just noticed Hound's Tooth has a 180 degree front arc, how weird is that ?)

i'm gonna go ahead and point out that ordnance currently is the "single sh*ttiest" mechanic in the game. turrets are fine. turrets were fine until the phantom showed up. phantom is fine. phantom can be beaten, in numerous embarrassing ways.

If turrets were fine we'd never of gotten Autothrusters would we.

They are way to prevalent on one side that's the big problem given the empires thing was superior movement at the cost of lower hit points, imps now have the decimator and shielded ships so it's not so bad but it's still really one sided.

It is 2 less shields than a YT-2400. However what makes YT-2400 the beast they are is the outrider title.

As I explained before you don't see many ORS or YT-2400 without outrider because 2 firepower right now sucks. It can barley kill a tie fighter but only if it gets really lucky and the tie fighter gets really unlucky.

It does seem like a torpedo/missile weapon heavy ship but with the TIE Bomber being well how it is I don't know how these wave 7 ships will help torpedo/missile.

Well, we didn't need thrusters, ceptors did.

That's because they're a maneuver dependent ship in a game defined by maneuvering facing off against ships that almost entirely ignore enemy manuevering/positioning

Just wantef to clarify that turrets are not really bad in the sense of overall game balance, they're just absolutely baffling consider how far counter they run to the design of the game. To think of them as a simple balance issue would be to SEVERLY devalue how negative an impact they can have on the game.

There's no proper analogy to how derpy the advantage is. Closest I can image is socerrer where some players are just arbitrarily allowed to pick the ball up and run it into the goal (ironically, american football )

I really want to stress this particular point since, thus far, it is the ONLY thing the kwing shares with some of the more infamously dull ships in the game. Its a stupid rule, yes, but it is far less emphasized on this (relatively) little guy

The effect it will have on the ship's gameplay will be objectively far less than on the yt-1300, may be even the hwk or ywing (given the emphasis of wave 7)

To summarize,

1. The turret advantage is specifically not okay because it makes no sense in the context of gameplay, not because its power necessitated specific upgrade cards to counter (which is just a symptom)

2. For all we know about the kwing's role in xwing miniatures (plus what we DO know about 2 dice primaries against high agility) the kwing might as well not have a turret at all

So continue to revile fat Hans etc (they deserve it) but hold out hope for the kwing

Well, we didn't need thrusters, ceptors did.

That's because they're a maneuver dependent ship in a game defined by maneuvering facing off against ships that almost entirely ignore enemy manuevering/positioning

Just wantef to clarify that turrets are not really bad in the sense of overall game balance, they're just absolutely baffling consider how far counter they run to the design of the game. To think of them as a simple balance issue would be to SEVERLY devalue how negative an impact they can have on the game.

There's no proper analogy to how derpy the advantage is. Closest I can image is socerrer where some players are just arbitrarily allowed to pick the ball up and run it into the goal (ironically, american football )

I really want to stress this particular point since, thus far, it is the ONLY thing the kwing shares with some of the more infamously dull ships in the game. Its a stupid rule, yes, but it is far less emphasized on this (relatively) little guy

The effect it will have on the ship's gameplay will be objectively far less than on the yt-1300, may be even the hwk or ywing (given the emphasis of wave 7)

To summarize,

1. The turret advantage is specifically not okay because it makes no sense in the context of gameplay, not because its power necessitated specific upgrade cards to counter (which is just a symptom)

2. For all we know about the kwing's role in xwing miniatures (plus what we DO know about 2 dice primaries against high agility) the kwing might as well not have a turret at all

So continue to revile fat Hans etc (they deserve it) but hold out hope for the kwing

You certainly have some strong feelings regarding turrets. I dont want to debate your premise since i think it's obvious to anyone who played a bit that primary turrets do have some nice advantages, but you might aswell mention that they are much more expensive relative to their statline. Han/Chirpy are like 60pts for a 3 attack ship, they should have some advantages to make up for being more than half of your list.

What that being said, i think it would've been interesting if they had made all turrets range 1-2 a long time ago. I dont think there will be such a drastic change at this point of the game, but Han & co would definitely play a lot different.

I would say that you can equip a secondary weapon turret along with several other slots, and the symbol means you can fire both primary and secondary in the same turn if you take that action...

Besides that, there was never any problem with turrets. Yes not even with Fat Han and Decimator. They were just needed to counter the insanity that the Phantom was, nothing more, and we saw them that much because they were simply the best counter you could have to that.

The problem the meta had a time ago was that you could either counter Fat turret ships or you could counter Phantoms, not both! Well even that is not a real problem anymore since Autothrusters and the Phantom nerf!

For example, 4 B-Wing lists with FCS always ate Fat Han for breakfast, just that these lists were unplayable because of Phantoms!

Well, we didn't need thrusters, ceptors did.

That's because they're a maneuver dependent ship in a game defined by maneuvering facing off against ships that almost entirely ignore enemy manuevering/positioning

Just wantef to clarify that turrets are not really bad in the sense of overall game balance, they're just absolutely baffling consider how far counter they run to the design of the game. To think of them as a simple balance issue would be to SEVERLY devalue how negative an impact they can have on the game.

There's no proper analogy to how derpy the advantage is. Closest I can image is socerrer where some players are just arbitrarily allowed to pick the ball up and run it into the goal (ironically, american football )

I really want to stress this particular point since, thus far, it is the ONLY thing the kwing shares with some of the more infamously dull ships in the game. Its a stupid rule, yes, but it is far less emphasized on this (relatively) little guy

The effect it will have on the ship's gameplay will be objectively far less than on the yt-1300, may be even the hwk or ywing (given the emphasis of wave 7)

To summarize,

1. The turret advantage is specifically not okay because it makes no sense in the context of gameplay, not because its power necessitated specific upgrade cards to counter (which is just a symptom)

2. For all we know about the kwing's role in xwing miniatures (plus what we DO know about 2 dice primaries against high agility) the kwing might as well not have a turret at all

So continue to revile fat Hans etc (they deserve it) but hold out hope for the kwing

You certainly have some strong feelings regarding turrets. I dont want to debate your premise since i think it's obvious to anyone who played a bit that primary turrets do have some nice advantages, but you might aswell mention that they are much more expensive relative to their statline. Han/Chirpy are like 60pts for a 3 attack ship, they should have some advantages to make up for being more than half of your list.

What that being said, i think it would've been interesting if they had made all turrets range 1-2 a long time ago. I dont think there will be such a drastic change at this point of the game, but Han & co would definitely play a lot different.

the rule as is just does not belong in the game, because it takes something wonderfully tactical and engaging and turns it into a dice fest for the opponent

Well, we didn't need thrusters, ceptors did.

That's because they're a maneuver dependent ship in a game defined by maneuvering facing off against ships that almost entirely ignore enemy manuevering/positioning

Just wantef to clarify that turrets are not really bad in the sense of overall game balance, they're just absolutely baffling consider how far counter they run to the design of the game. To think of them as a simple balance issue would be to SEVERLY devalue how negative an impact they can have on the game.

There's no proper analogy to how derpy the advantage is. Closest I can image is socerrer where some players are just arbitrarily allowed to pick the ball up and run it into the goal (ironically, american football )

I really want to stress this particular point since, thus far, it is the ONLY thing the kwing shares with some of the more infamously dull ships in the game. Its a stupid rule, yes, but it is far less emphasized on this (relatively) little guy

The effect it will have on the ship's gameplay will be objectively far less than on the yt-1300, may be even the hwk or ywing (given the emphasis of wave 7)

To summarize,

1. The turret advantage is specifically not okay because it makes no sense in the context of gameplay, not because its power necessitated specific upgrade cards to counter (which is just a symptom)

2. For all we know about the kwing's role in xwing miniatures (plus what we DO know about 2 dice primaries against high agility) the kwing might as well not have a turret at all

So continue to revile fat Hans etc (they deserve it) but hold out hope for the kwing

You certainly have some strong feelings regarding turrets. I dont want to debate your premise since i think it's obvious to anyone who played a bit that primary turrets do have some nice advantages, but you might aswell mention that they are much more expensive relative to their statline. Han/Chirpy are like 60pts for a 3 attack ship, they should have some advantages to make up for being more than half of your list.

What that being said, i think it would've been interesting if they had made all turrets range 1-2 a long time ago. I dont think there will be such a drastic change at this point of the game, but Han & co would definitely play a lot different.

please note that I did bring up that turrets are not a balance issue. that line of thinking is incorrect (except arguably in the case of m.o.v) and does not accurate capture how negatively they affect the game

the rule as is just does not belong in the game, because it takes something wonderfully tactical and engagement and turns it into a dice fest for the opponent

That insightful counter argument was incredibly well written and merited reposting the massive block quote

Turret weapons have been a part of the Star Wars universe since the first movie very clearly and with iconic movie footage to prove it!

I am sorry if you feel otherwise but that will probably not change either since turrets earn their place in this game not just by being in the movies, but also the fact that they are just a necessary thing to realize X-Wing as a game. How would you make the Falcon if not with a turret. It had one, period!

Turrets dont need a change, nor do turret primary weapons gamewise. All turret weapons pay a steep price for having one, and if anyone can't make up for that with his flying or listbuilding skills, well then maybe they should get better at the game or accept the fact that turret ships should also be playable and stand a chance!

What do some people actually want? They want turret nerfs, in a meta where turrets are not even doninant. Why? I just don't get this!

Except that the falcon being expensive is kinda a bonus when you can win just by keeping it alive.

Except that the falcon being expensive is kinda a bonus when you can win just by keeping it alive.

it can win most 1v1. That's about it and also depends on how healthy it was before. And if you let it cone to a 1v1 with it, well you probably failed to play correctly because you should always bring enough firepower to kill a falcon in 2-3 turns! There are plenty of lists that, flown correctly, can do this without problems. You csn get easily 2 well equipped ships for the price of a decent Fat Han. And that's not a bad thing except you lose them! The falcon has 13HP and 1-2 evades a turn. Stop acting as if it was so **** invincible, it's not. Been there, done that. No problem!

Except that the falcon being expensive is kinda a bonus when you can win just by keeping it alive.

it can win most 1v1. That's about it and also depends on how healthy it was before. And if you let it cone to a 1v1 with it, well you probably failed to play correctly because you should always bring enough firepower to kill a falcon in 2-3 turns!

All true I was just pointing out being expensive isn't always detrimental.

Yes it's not always, but mostly!

DIVE under your fiberboard desk in them miserable cubicles... it will save you! DIVE, DIVE , DIVE !!!

Here come them horrid FFG ships!

Turret weapons have been a part of the Star Wars universe since the first movie very clearly and with iconic movie footage to prove it!

I am sorry if you feel otherwise but that will probably not change either since turrets earn their place in this game not just by being in the movies, but also the fact that they are just a necessary thing to realize X-Wing as a game. How would you make the Falcon if not with a turret. It had one, period!

Turrets dont need a change, nor do turret primary weapons gamewise. All turret weapons pay a steep price for having one, and if anyone can't make up for that with his flying or listbuilding skills, well then maybe they should get better at the game or accept the fact that turret ships should also be playable and stand a chance!

What do some people actually want? They want turret nerfs, in a meta where turrets are not even doninant. Why? I just don't get this!

I have a feeling people don't read my posts

I never said anything about turrets as a concept, just the way they are implemented in the game is piss poor and lazy game design

the way turrets are integrated into the game is not analogous to star wars turrets themselves

I don't understand how people can't distinguish the two.

I love Han Solo and the Millennium Falcon as irreplaceable parts of my childhood and as just really awesome things, but the "han solo" in X-wing miniatures a lazy, dumbed down version of the game that makes me feel like Ive been teleported out of my nuanced tactical game and back into $40k

if there was literally any kind of benefit to engaging turrets in different manners or at different angles, any kind of significance to your gameplay decisions, then there'd be at least a sign that there is some kind of strategic element to all the dice rolling, but unless you're playing with thrusters you're getting jack **** and more/less dice.

thank rngesus almighty FFG accounted for the sheer paint-drying boredom of 360 fire in Armada by making every arc distinct and important (or incredibly limited in the case of squadrons), or that'd be one hell of a snorefest that really wouldn't need players, just two RNGs going at it.

so, again , the problem with (primary weapon) turrets have nothing to do with balance

they are a poorly designed and lazy mechanic that do not do this great game justice .

and, again , the k-wing seems to be dodging this ill-conceived ability by having a mere 2 die primary and an implicit focus on ordinance and bombs

I think it was done well. Better than any of the other ideas I've heard on these forums.

I think it was done well. Better than any of the other ideas I've heard on these forums.

I think it was done well. Better than any of the other ideas I've heard on these forums.

Nah.

*Slow clap*

Lazy game design? Poor game design? I'm sure you know better than the people who actually design games for a living. By all means start another thread with your wealth of better turret mechanics. They'll be the same "point it left or right" unplayable nonsense people have been pushing since 2013.

Lazy game design? Poor game design? I'm sure you know better than the people who actually design games for a living. By all means start another thread with your wealth of better turret mechanics. They'll be the same "point it left or right" unplayable nonsense people have been pushing since 2013.

people who design games for a living are still people, and people occasionally **** up royally

I respect FFG and the game designers who worked on X-wing, but I'm not about to build a shrine to their honor and revere them as gaming Buddhas.

and "unplayable nonsense" would be preferable to the mindless mechanics with have in place today

I like the K-Wing. I like that there is a small ship with a primary turret weapon. I expect the K-Wing to be expensive. I would guess that it will be somewhere around 30 points, before you equip any ordnance. So likely to be highly expensive if loaded up.

Lazy game design? Poor game design? I'm sure you know better than the people who actually design games for a living. By all means start another thread with your wealth of better turret mechanics. They'll be the same "point it left or right" unplayable nonsense people have been pushing since 2013.

people who design games for a living are still people, and people occasionally **** up royally

I respect FFG and the game designers who worked on X-wing, but I'm not about to build a shrine to their honor and revere them as gaming Buddhas.

and "unplayable nonsense" would be preferable to the mindless mechanics with have in place today

Respect them enough to call them lazy. Nice guy.

I was serious. A lot of smart people have put a lot of thought into more FUN mechanics for turrets in this game and they've come up with zilch.

Lazy game design? Poor game design? I'm sure you know better than the people who actually design games for a living. By all means start another thread with your wealth of better turret mechanics. They'll be the same "point it left or right" unplayable nonsense people have been pushing since 2013.

people who design games for a living are still people, and people occasionally **** up royally

I respect FFG and the game designers who worked on X-wing, but I'm not about to build a shrine to their honor and revere them as gaming Buddhas.

and "unplayable nonsense" would be preferable to the mindless mechanics with have in place today

Respect them enough to call them lazy. Nice guy.

I was serious. A lot of smart people have put a lot of thought into more FUN mechanics for turrets in this game and they've come up with zilch.

The MECHANIC is lazy, I said nothing about the designers other than that they dropped the ball on the inception of the rule and have learned from their mistakes (tried to limit it in wave 5, compleltly eliminated it from armada, deemphasized it like crazy with the k-wing)

Please try to understand what I wrote before making assertions.

I'm sort of positive the designers are reponsible for other ships/abilities in the game than just turrets

Plus I'm sure they thought of better, but its their policy not to fix anything in retro (large ship rolls, I guess). They are doing what they can going forward with the designs of newer ships and upgrades (thrusters).

Maybe someday they'll find a way to go back and fix their mistake. I have faith and I respect their abilities, or I'd sure as **** wouldn't be optimistic about the k wing