So my first paragraphs is more of a rant/my history with slow playing. The fact is Slow playing is a problem and needs fixed. When tournament games are taking 10-12 minutes in game rounds, it makes for a very boring game when your watching a guy think for 11 of those 12 minutes. When your mentality is no longer about out flying your opponent, but knowing that if you choose to exploit your opponents position, the game would only last 2 more rounds with only 1 round of shooting to kill two ships, if you GAVE into your opponents blunder you risk loosing your ship, but gain the chance at killing two of your opponent's ships for the win. So the game no longer rewards good players making good moves, but rather bad players (whether skill wise bad, or cheating bad), making bad moves.

When I started playing this game there was no slow play at all. sure everyone was new at this game, but my Tournament record during the kessel run, and first regional was full games, none of my games came down to time (I ran swarms mostly during tournaments)

Everyone flew casual at this point in the game.

During the first store championships, I had my first game come down to time. It was against Kyhros. I was rusty from playing a stupid knockoff game... Kyros had 1 awing, with ptl and I had a tie fighter during endgame. He was smart deciding to focus and evade every turn (which made it near impossible for me to get damage through, so I ran my tiefighter and kept him alive. This was to win the tournament, I would need a full win, and he would have to lose for me to get first place (we both won our next game which put him 1st, and me 2nd).

So first game came down to time, but it wasn't due to slow play. It was infact because we both choose to be ultra defensive. So I really didnt have a problem until the second year regionals (last year). I went to a tournament against a bunch of Nova Squad, and ended up winning the regional. I attended several regionals that year, and ended up getting beat by a swarm player who played incredible slow. He triple checked every move, and took his time asking questions about anything he could. The game lasted about 5 rounds, I chalked up the game to an incredible new player. I should have won that game too, but I didn't think much about it.Then a guy pointed out that he did the same thing to him, only he would start playing very fast when losing, and slowed way down when winning. After having the guy next to me during a match, I noticed he was doing this intentionally. The guy who informed me of this behavior reported it to the TO, and I presented my findings. The tournament was too big for him to be watched, but the TO made sure to stop by the player to watch what he could, but couldn't get anything.

During Nationals I had a well known player to these forums (I wont say names, though his exploits for not flying casual are well known to other players). During this match, my opponent killed one ship and slowed very down. There was a point where he had a single ship left to fire to only one target, but took an entire minute to decide if he wanted to take the shot. It was obvious that this was a bad tomato, but this was for sure cheating. It was the final round, he knocked me out (I played and made the cut the following day).

mini tournaments and Store Championships have gotten worse, time is an issue. I played 60 minute rounds where games were being called to time constantly. I was called a slow player because I choose to play on the outside of the board, which ironically enough was what my opponent was doing... The only difference was I was in pursuit mode, and didn't let him flank me. I had my dials down before him, though I think it was my comment telling him that I was content with just chasing him down until he made a mistake and tried to either cut in or perform a suicide joust k turn on me that upset him...

So This game is starting to loose the dog fighting feel. I dont mind slow methodical playing during fun games because I know its not on purpose, and it doesn't force me to rush into a bad position to try to destroy a ship to get barely ahead in points when time is about to run out. I was talking to Theorist about this, and he suggested doing 2 minute planing phases (which is beyond plenty of time). Slow playing wouldn't be stopped by this, but it would become more obvious to TO's who was doing it.

Thoughts? better ways to fix it? 2 minutes enough? 12 minutes not enough time?

Fixed turn limit instead.

Partial points would go a long way towards addressing the problem. Clocks, in my opinion, would do even better - but they would be a little more complicated to implement.

It's also worth mentioning that those type of players will wash out of the game. They will get 'bored' after all of the exploits they cling to don't quite manage to compensate for their lack of talent and they consistently miss significant placement, they will gain a negative reputation and they'll ragequit the game to go play something else which is 'so much better anyway' after having their inevitable run in with a referee.

Fixed turn limit instead.

Fixed turns + partial points for damage

Call over the TO and let him or her deal with it. That's their job afterall.

Fixed turn limit instead.

I like this idea in theory, but it might not be feasible to implement. You would ideally want to pick a number of turns that don't favor particular lists (or, at least, favor them significantly) - but you could exhaust the tournament's planned schedule if the turn limit is too long.

There are two classes of slow-playing that I've seen.

1) The deliberate slow-play. This is the case where a guy takes a minute to roll dice despite having only one legal target. You usually know it when you see it.

2) The "accidental" slow-play. This is where the player takes forever to set up moves largely due to indecision. There's one player who developed a very bad reputation for slow-playing (taking forever to plan moves despite only flying a two-ship list). But, having watched his games, I don't think he was deliberately trying to slow the game down. He wasn't avoiding combat. Indeed, in a Dash vs Chewie battle, he repeatedly would barrel-roll his Dash to get a shot at Fat Chewie, even though he was winning on points and had nothing to gain beyond keeping the combat going.

#1 is a problem, but #2 is common enough when players start to try to out-think their opponents. They'll set their dials down, then realize a counter-move, then change their dials, then realize their change was stupid, then change it back, then realize they forgot to account for potential blocks and change it again. I don't know a player who hasn't done that.

If you feel it's a problem, call over the judge.

I like the 'idea' of a time limit, but it seems as if it would be difficult to keep track and enforce. I think for now the TO is the person that can 'fix' this issue. You just have to have a TO with the stones to call someone on slow playing and a big enough consequence to discourage the player base from taking that path.

I think the only way fixed turn 'limits' would work for this game would be to set a minimum number of rounds (i.e. the match will go 'X' number of rounds or to time). But it would not be a hard turn limit, so at the end of round X the match would continue if there was still time on the clock.

Personally, I'm not a fan of partial points. I don't see the value it adds to the game and feels like it would turn towards people dropping upgrades and going with heavy hulled ships to dance around it. I don't think taking viable options away from the meta is a good idea...

Call over the TO and let him or her deal with it. That's their job afterall.

But how is even the best TO supposed to enforce the very vague slow-play rules? There aren't even any rough guidelines for it. How often am I allowed to heat-up my dice before a roll before it's considered slow rolling, for example? How quickly do I have to turn in a dial before it's slow rolling? How quickly do I have to resolve movement / collisions before it's slow rolling?

If the answer to the above is, "Well, you know it when you see it," then it's likely to come down to a rule that's unenforceable (or, worse, a rule that TOs begin using to hassle / penalize players that they simply don't like).

But how is even the best TO supposed to enforce the very vague slow-play rules?

Simple, the TO's word is final. They get to decide what is or isn't slow play, that's why the rules are so vague, so the TO can use their judgement on the matter.

If a TO can't tell if someone is intentionally dragging the game out or not, they shouldn't be a TO.

If a TO starts to use the rule to hassle players, then no one is going to show up to their events. Worse they could in theory lose their job or customers depending on who the TO is.

I have friends that slow play during the tournament. They dont do it on purpose, but you couldnt tell... I'm not going to call a TO on my friend. In fact I'm afraid that during a tournament my friend will be called a cheater, and quit the game (which would be a real shame).

Partial points would go a long way towards addressing the problem. Clocks, in my opinion, would do even better - but they would be a little more complicated to implement.

It's also worth mentioning that those type of players will wash out of the game. They will get 'bored' after all of the exploits they cling to don't quite manage to compensate for their lack of talent and they consistently miss significant placement, they will gain a negative reputation and they'll ragequit the game to go play something else which is 'so much better anyway' after having their inevitable run in with a referee.

The problem with clocks is that they punish you for bringing more ships.

When you're flying a two ship list, of course our going to play faster than a five ship list.

you have 20 seconds per ship with (assuming 6 ships at 2 minutes) that's still plenty of time.

I have friends that slow play during the tournament. They dont do it on purpose, but you couldnt tell.

Sure you can. Someone who's trying to slowplay as a way to get a win, will play at 'normal' speeds at first, and only start to slow down once they've gained a lead on points.

This is one of the first things a TO would be looking at to tell.

But even if the person isn't doing it intentionally, there comes a point where someone shouldn't be playing in tournaments if they that slowly, because you're now causing harm to others by lowering their MoV and maybe even costing them a win.

Fixed turn limit instead.

I don't think that's a good idea.

In a fixed time setting, a player can try to "game the system" by letting the clock run down as he decides his maneuvers.

In a fixed round setting, a player can try to "game the system" by postponing the engagement for a few rounds as he flies around the board.

you have 20 seconds per ship with (assuming 6 ships at 2 minutes) that's still plenty of time.

Is it? Are we talking about planning phase or activation phase? What if you have 8 ships? Now you're looking at 15 seconds per ship.

This is why a simple time limit doesn't work in this game, and why it's left up to the TO to sort out.

I like the 'idea' of a time limit, but it seems as if it would be difficult to keep track and enforce. I think for now the TO is the person that can 'fix' this issue. You just have to have a TO with the stones to call someone on slow playing and a big enough consequence to discourage the player base from taking that path.

I think the only way fixed turn 'limits' would work for this game would be to set a minimum number of rounds (i.e. the match will go 'X' number of rounds or to time). But it would not be a hard turn limit, so at the end of round X the match would continue if there was still time on the clock.

Personally, I'm not a fan of partial points. I don't see the value it adds to the game and feels like it would turn towards people dropping upgrades and going with heavy hulled ships to dance around it. I don't think taking viable options away from the meta is a good idea...

Can you elaborate on this point? It seems to me that partial points offer far less incentive for fat ships than the present all-or-nothing system, given that you'll earn points just for inflicting damage. It also seems like it would reward upgrades at least a little but more, since any efficient upgrade card will either help you gain that point-scoring damage or evade it.

The only drawback I'm aware of is that, once the game ends, you won't be sure of who won in a close match until you break out the calculator and eat some point salad, which can be dull for some people.

But even if the person isn't doing it intentionally, there comes a point where someone shouldn't be playing in tournaments if they that slowly, because you're now causing harm to others by lowering their MoV and maybe even costing them a win.

Well, that's harsh. Who are you, or anyone, to say who should or should not be playing in tournaments?

The problem is not with the players, it is with the underlying point system that mathematically favors Fat Ships, and slow playing when to your advantage.

Partial points is the only solution to this problem. This sort of thing will become the new normal unless and until partial points are implemented. It is 100% inevitable.

Granted partial points has its own problem with implementation, but that is another discussion entirely.

I have personally never encountered slow play in more than a dozen tourneys, so I am not really affected by it. I have, however, played against turreted ships that run away the entire time which is colossally boring and counter to the spirit of the game, IMO. I don't fault the players; it's the system that allows them to thrive that is the issue. Fat ships are a problem when there's no system in place to award partial credit for a damaged ship. Fix that and you're a long way towards fixing this problem, as there will be little to no incentive for playing keep away or slow-playing to artificially shorten games.

Also, for the record, SUPER opposed to 60 minute rounds as they feed this mentality and big ship spamming excessively.

Unless you put exact limits on planning phase and an activation phase with set values this has to be a vague issue.

I am talking like x minutes per planning and x minutes for the whole of your fleet to activate. And what happens when you run out of time, your ships will just stand still? What about crashes, pre activation phase actions.

I am not even touching more intricate stuff of modifying dice to avoud gunner or sth. Either you put hard limits like "15 sec to roll defence dice and modify it " i dont think thats happening. And what if you mightbe behind an obstacle and cant agree and need to call a judge?

The more occasion the players interact the harder it is to put hard time limits. And in x wing players interact a lot.

@Majorjuggler

Ok this is a time issue, it doesn't need partial point agenda jerked into it. I respect your work but please stop with jabbing your partial point cause in every thread. People can slow play even with partial point system. They are slow playing with fat ships now, they will slow pkay with small ships later.

@Majorjuggler

Ok this is a time issue, it doesn't need partial point agenda jerked into it. I respect your work but please stop with jabbing your partial point cause in every thread. People can slow play even with partial point system. They are slow playing with fat ships now, they will slow pkay with small ships later.

It's a completely valid point of discussion with regards to slow play, because the current scoring system largely contributes towards slow rolling as an advantageous strategy (as well as passive play with smaller, hard-to-kill lists).

Players can still slow roll in a partial points system, but they do not gain nearly the same advantage as they do with the current system.

EDIT: Also, it isn't really a 'time issue'. As long as you have a time limit, and the limit isn't so long as to effectively give players unlimited time, you're always going to gain a statistically significant advantage by playing with 2 ships and slowing down your turns after gaining a points lead to deny your opponent rounds of shooting. The difference between 60 and 75 minute rounds only calibrates how large the advantage is.

Who are you, or anyone, to say who should or should not be playing in tournaments?

If I'm the one playing then I should have a say in how much time the other person spends. Why they're taking so long isn't really important.

If I'm playing a 4 ship list, and have to wait around for 10 minutes for the other guy to just set his dials every round, I don't care why it's taking so long. I'm going to call the TO over and ask them to do something about it.

If there's a time limit on the game, then everyone owes it to everyone else to respect that and play in a way that accounts for that. If someone is brand new to the game, trying to stall for time or just not that bright doesn't matter. If they can't complete their turn in an appropriate amount of time they shouldn't be playing in a timed tournament.

Not really sure what's controversial about that... Who I am, is the person being harmed by someone else taking too long to play the game.