Hi to you all,

This is my first post on that forum, although I've been following DH for some months now. I haven't been able to play a game yet, as I've got my hands full of projects for the moment, but I'm utterly fascinated by the amount of background designers at BI and FFG are able to provide players and GMs with, as well as the sheer capability to translate table-top concepts into a RPG.

I've been thinking it over and designed some PCs/NPCs thanks to some fan sites and I came to the conclusion that there lacked a career path centered on negotiation, subtleness, manipulation and the likes. It would be a path that would encompass the concept of trader/merchant/diplomat/PR officer/politician. This would more or less be designed for gamers more inclined to use information, manipulate others, gather intelligence...

I've tried to put those concept into the flesh of existing paths - adept with social skills and talents, cleric - but I don't like the idea of a religious-only diplomat -, use of the void comercia background, the legate alternative path... - but I never achieved what I wanted to.

Do you have any idea ? How do you reconcile such concepts with existing mechanisms ?

Do you know if RT will address this issue in some way or another ?

Otherwise I might start to write down and begin sketching the outline of such a carreer path.

Thanks in advance for your insight.

Matteus Iorga said:

Noble Born Adpets or Noble Born Clerics (preferably with the "Chantries of Hive Tarsus" background package listed in Inquisitors Handbook) would be the way to go.

I play the latter in one campaign, and he's pretty much the group's diplomat and people person. He's also an intelligent political beast, more interested in information and ways to use that information to his own or the mission's advantage.

Remember that not all Clerics are the "fire and brimstone" zealots like most Clerics are portryed to be. Especially not the Noble Born ones, since the Ecclesiarchy is just another ladder of power for them to climb, which often makes them excellent diplomats.

Adepts with high fellowship make excellent diplomats.

The option "adept" packed with social skills and talents is quite good indeed, but is only really playable at high level - say 6+.

What I've got in mind is someone as skilled in intelligence/negotiation as an assassin is at killing right from the 2nd or 3rd levels.

There's a RPG out there that you may knot - and that's got nothing to do with W40k - that's called Legend of the 5 Rings, in which you're able fairly powerful diplomats/courtiers right from the outset of a campaign/adventure.

This is what I strive to get to.

Varnias, you gave me an idea : try to design a carreer path inspired by the noble born/cleric/chantry of tarsus combination, while giving it a much less pronounced religious and more generic aspect.

The Bonded Emisarry from the Inquisitor's Handbook is pretty good as well. If memory serves me you can get it at rank 3.

Matteus Iorga said:

Well, religion at those levels of society are more like a business rather than spiritual meditation. It's like the catholic church during the middle ages, where clerics sold free tickets out of hell to sinful nobles, and some monks where even involved in money loaning.

The real fire and brimstone zealots where mostly comprised of low born priests (who really "bought into" all the "spiritual bull" written in the bible), while the more noble born priests often had less spiritual and more secular goals for being involve with the church at all (meaning, making profit, status and power out of it).

It seems to me that the Hive Chantries of Tarsus BG-package is tailor made for Clerics just like that. It let's you start with the Charm skill and a Peer Talent. Combine that with the talents and skills you get from a noble born lineage and you'll have a pretty skilled negotiator/diplomat even for a first/second rank character, and they get even better on higher levels. (My PC has collected a ridiculous amount of Peer Talents so far. He knows exactly how to behave around pretty much EVERY organisation or group within the Imperium of Man ).

P.S about the "spiritual bull" remark. It's not intended as a slur against catholicism, it was only meant to reflect the mindset of some clerics and priests of the catholic church during the middle ages, and I hope everyone (including any catholics reading this) understands that. Your faith is your business, but I don't think any religion can claim that ALL of their so called "worshippers" are really genuine about their faith. If that was the case, then altar boys wouldn't have been molested by catholic priests in the past.

Your god might be holy and perfect, but hardly all of his subjects are. That is a fact that I think even the most zealous worshipper can see.

I am a sceptical agnosticist myself. I was atheist at first, but then I realized the rather un-scientific aspects of a standpoint of claiming that gods DO NOT exist at all. We're only human and can only percieve three dimensions with our limited senses, but science has given indications that A LOT more dimensions might exist, and the fourth one (time) is a dimension we're pretty sure about even if we can't really percieve it, only witness the after effects of it (we can't see/hear/smell/touch/taste time, but we can see things around us age). If dimensions that we cant' precieve can exist, then we don't really know what sort of beings might exist within the complete dimensional spectrum. Lifeforms or "awarenesses" that we can't even comperhend might exist, but our senses are simply too limited to percieve them, and such "beings" might come across as "godlike" to us.

Still, while I do find the "theory" of an invisible man living in the sky, who watches our every move and have special rules for how we should live our lives and if we break those rules he's going to put us in a firey place with demons sticking our rear-quarters with pitchforks for all eternity (but he loves us!), to be full of holes and inconsistencies, I can't (as a man of science) declare that the exsistence of "gods" or "godlike beings" to be impossible. We just don't know that at the present, our perception of reality is simply too limited.

That's my view, and I have my reasons for having it. Just like religious people have their reasons for their views and faith. Hopefully we can come to an understanding rather than bicker about it.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Heretic! Bow down before the God-Emperor!!!...... or the Ruinous Powers!!.........or the C'tan!....... or.. well I think you get it

Tetragon Tanebrae said:

Hehe, now we come back to the "reasons" I spoke of, for view and worship. I don't have sufficient reasons to bow down to the God-Emperor, nor the Ruinous Powers, nor the C'Tan for that matter... I don't fear any god enough to want to bow down to it. There's nothing they can do to make me feel fear or awe or even respect. I guess I must be an Untouchable in that regard.

Gonna bring down an exterminatus as a show of force will you? Gonna sacrifice nine billion people in your name are you? Gonna harvest the galaxy of all living things are you? Well... Those are all neat tricks, but they don't phase me at all. Mr "godlike being", please let me introduce you to miss middle finger, she so does like to show herself off to you.

Now you'll have to excuse me, im going to watch Blackadder on tv.

//Varnias Tybalt - unimpressed by all forms of divine intervention.

Talking "building a better diplomat"... I would stat out with a scum and haggle with my GM to apply for a job (say: Trade(Merchant) and get a steady income.

While "Rogue" is an "blank rank" for a social figure, the fixer-way should offer what you want.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Although I'm no catholic (rather belonging to the orthodox side of Christianity) - respect for your words. I'm sure that the god whoever he might be - would see your point (on the Doomsday )

I just happened to have my copy of IH on hand and noticed the Void Commercia package. Although you're pigdeon-holed into being a former mouthpeice for one of the big company houses it pretty much has what your looking for I think, just tweek it a bit so it isn't exclusive to void born characters.

Nobleborn Tarsus Cleric sounds about right.

Ignayus said:

Yes, for a bargaining/trader type of Character the Void Commercia Adept would be the better choice, since they are more like deal-brokers rather than political diplomats like the Hive Tarsus Chantry Clerics.

The distinction is also pretty appropriate since the proffesional behaviour of brokering deals is really to focus on making the most profit and making a show of it. Diplomacy on the other hand is more like making a show of your "good intent" and making any line of dispute seem as far from "profit making" as possible.

A diplomat, blatantly working with the interest of profit for either himself or his faction will not be a very successful one, since any opponent in any guiven dispute will always try to resist him or her.

So the distinction here is really about two different ways of bull your opponents into believing you and agreeing with you.

Gregorius21778 said:

Noble Born scum are great for this.

Also, you could always model a cleric after Cavil in BSG if you want to play a 40k skeptic cleric. Or just a noble-born cleric who is a cynic, riding his robes to riches and power. Which, given how heavily 40k draws on the darker aspects of Catholic history, is actually very appropriate to the setting.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Ah, but you're supposed to love the god enough to honor him - like a loving parent figure. I used to be Catholic and one of the reasons I got out of that was because I couldn't swallow the idea that this loving god wanted us to prostrate ourselves before him and grovel at his feet. Who would want to honor a being which demanded something like that? Obviously many people, but not me. I was brought up to believe in a loving and forgiving god who overlooked our shortcomings so long as we were trying ... and that wasn't the god my church was preaching. (then I had an unpleasant experience when I wanted to enter seminary ... learning some of the tenants of the church they don't bother telling you on Sunday)

All that said, and off topic as it is, I don't think there is a lack of proper classes in 40k for this. Clerics and Adepts are solid knowledge based professions with diplomatic skills later on. From the start, though, you'll never have a more charming, manipulative and convincing profession than the scum. Sure, a street boy may not be your first choice, but a little toying with his background to make him a scum who swindled his way up the social ladder in order to use his talents in the political arena, or get a job with a merchant as a means to hide from people looking for him, is entirely doable ... not to mention it adds some depth to his background.

Note folks last I checked the noble could take the scum path. Being a scum is NOT always the low born hive ganger.

And there you go.