I love 'beer and pretzels' games. Heroquest was a breath of fresh air at the time.

wargaming was getting increasingly 'rulesy' so games you could enjoy withouth having to refer to the manual every five minutes were great.

The reason why i love games like 'zombies' and to an lesser extent xwing.

I cant remember the last time i had to check the rulebook to play a game of xwing

These are the best I have. All models are finished and based but I didn't photograph them before sending them home.

Matt Ward's codexes were not the problem, it's that he didn't do all of the codexes. His rules were more interesting and more fun than the other authors so the impression was that his books were overpowered. If he'd written all the armies to the same level I think all of the armies would be more fun.

Now they've neutered every codex, removed as many options as possible, and made every codex feel largely the same. If you cut out the names of everything they all look like the 3rd edition SM codex to me. Every army has lost any unit that a model is not specifically made for after the Chapterhouse lawsuit so there's nothing to convert anymore. Fluffy options are gone and customization along with it in favor of datasheets designed to get you to buy bundles of models you may not want to use.

I just want to play 5th or 6th edition with the older codexes to be honest.

Can I see a current source for that 95% world wide market share?

Ye-es, I was wondering about that particular line myself.

Currently debating on whether selling the majority of my existing GW range (40K Eldar/ Fantasy Warriors of Chaos) is a good idea, or waiting to see how things pan out.

I've dumped a lot of GW stuff on ebay over the last couple of years to fund my new-fangled X-Wing addiction, and I haven't played a game of Warhammer of any variety in 18 months or so, but there's some stuff you're just loathe to get rid of, even if all it's doing is gathering dust in the cupboard...

Yes, I just sold ALL of my 40K stuff for $100. I know I could have got more but was moving and just wanted it gone. There was a winged Tyrant, Carnifex, 15 Terminators, Bike Squad (8 and an attack bike) etc. All nicely painted.

I seem to recall their market share was part of one of their recent annual reports.

If its not 95 per cent still its still massively larger than its nearest competitor.

Nobody operates in the wargames industry on the scale GW do.

I dont particularly like it either, but it is actually the way it is.

Its why mainstream toyshops sell GW but don't sell 'malifeux'. A few stores sell FFG products but on the whole GW has an overwhelming highstreet presence.

Im unfortunately really struggling to find a market share comparison.

The main reason for this sort of backs up my point that the turnover of every other country is a drop in the ocean compared to GWS.

Basically most the other companies are so small they are not even on the stock market

Also being in the UK makes it tricky to work out turnovers and market shares and tangible assets in comparison with none UK companies. But as my wife works for the local business school she did trawl through the UK FAME database for reported data. Using this was able to compare GW with a fairly successful 28mm world war II miniatures game 'warlord games' who make Bolt Action and are largely ex GW employees. And also Mantic Entertainment Ltd

GW was the only one of the three to publish their 2014 turnover of £123,501,000. Neither Mantic Entertainment or Warlord Games published turnover for 2014 (or for any years in fact). They did report tangible assets, recorded shareholders and recorded subsideries as follows:

Games Workshop Group PLC Tangible Assets = £18909000, Shareholders = 55, Subsideries =37

Warlord Games Tangible Assets = £360933, Shareholders = 4, Subsideries = 1

Mantic Entertainment Limited = £557677, Shareholders = 3, Subsideries = 0

Essentially thats comparing GW to two UK companies that are comparably well known but clearly are not in the same league.

I'd imagine FFG sell more than Mantic, perhaps a few other companies do but there profits will (and sales/market share) will be absolutely tiny compared to GW.

It might not be 95 per cent anymore (and im pretty sure it was at some point) but its still bloody huge.

So what you are saying is that GW is Starbucks and the other companies are Tweek's Coffee?

Essentially i think using a uk analogy.. GW are starbucks and most other games companies in comparative turnover are those motorway 'cafes' made out of shipping containers or caravans

ouch What i see played at my local gamestore is this:

49% 40k

49% Warmahordes (70% warmachine/30% hordes)

2% Malifaux

0% warhammer (!)

I haven't included the x-wing/armada/star trek/ flying spaceship games in the above list.

Yeah but you're not seeing the core GW market which is people who only recognise the existance of gw, as 'the hobby'

You dont usually find the FLGS until you've got sick of 'games night' at your local GW.

Likewise, in the Uk especially a lot of FLGS have had bad experiences with GW where agressive trade sales and store placement strategy in the past has cost them money (for example GW have in the past opened up stores right next to prior trade accounts after building up a demand in their area and the customers clearly switch to the GW store with its opening offers and cripple the FLGS.. old school stuff but still a bad feeling exists with some stores).

You cant really look at whats being played in a FLGS and equate sales off that.

I personally feel that the FLGS is where those disenfranchised with GW for whatever reason go. If you're a mad keen GW fanboy you go to your local GW, GTS, , warhammer world etc etc. You tend to have three or four mates you play warhammer against at home all the time.

The thing GW have is that its really not hard to find someone else who plays 40k but if you're into something really 'niche' (lets say you like battletech) you're going to struggle to find people into that game, going to a local store is probably a good way of meeting people with 'diverse' gaming tastes.

Just my opinion and the way i see it from being both inside and outside of the 'evil empire'

Edit:

And as i said 'warhammer' has been in trouble for a long time.

Back in 2005 i seem to recall Lord of the Rings was about 10 to 15 per cent of GW sales.

To give you an idea.. paints and glue was 15 per cent of sales

40k was about 60 per cent

The problem was that warhammer requires a massive investment to get started in (compared to say a space marine army) in both time and money and painting. Most people dont have the patience to paint and assemble 300 orcs and goblins when you could have a game of 40k with 30 models a side.

We spent a long time in marketting trying to make warhammer 'cool' with 'gradual purchase' programmes like 'tale of four gamers' and the skirmish rules and stuff like 'warhammer ahoy' with boats etc.

(we did the same to a lesser degree with '40k in 40 minutes' and 'combat patrol' to make introductory low cost entry level games of 40k).

Put it this way buying into warhammer in the uK now would probably cost me about £200 for a reasonable army that wasnt 'elite' and wasnt 'hoard' but average.

Then i'd have to paint it and spend ages on that.

Or i can spend £30 on a core xwing set, £30 on three more rebel ships and be in the game for a 5th of the cost of playing warhammer an no painting required.

I actually put forwards a proposal in about 2003 for 'pre painted' warhammer and 40k 'core forces' after seeing how well 'dragon armour' prepainted wwii tanks were selling in 1/72 scale to gamers.

I was told it 'wasnt *the hobby*'.

Clearly it is.....

I think you are focusing only on your experience working there in England. Ive worked in hobby and game distribution as well, however not GW exclusive and in the US and online markets. While GW was a significant portion, it was not 95 percent of the market over here.

It's anecdotal, but what I have heard is that gamong in England means GW. However that isn't true over here. Wargaming has become very diverse over the last decade. And while gaming may not be as prevalent over here, by shear population size we account for a significant amount of the world wide wargaming market.

And as i said 'warhammer' has been in trouble for a long time.

Back in 2005 i seem to recall Lord of the Rings was about 10 to 15 per cent of GW sales.

To give you an idea.. paints and glue was 15 per cent of sales

40k was about 60 per cent

The problem was that warhammer requires a massive investment to get started in (compared to say a space marine army) in both time and money and painting. Most people dont have the patience to paint and assemble 300 orcs and goblins when you could have a game of 40k with 30 models a side.

We spent a long time in marketting trying to make warhammer 'cool' with 'gradual purchase' programmes like 'tale of four gamers' and the skirmish rules and stuff like 'warhammer ahoy' with boats etc.

(we did the same to a lesser degree with '40k in 40 minutes' and 'combat patrol' to make introductory low cost entry level games of 40k).

Put it this way buying into warhammer in the uK now would probably cost me about £200 for a reasonable army that wasnt 'elite' and wasnt 'hoard' but average.

Then i'd have to paint it and spend ages on that.

Or i can spend £30 on a core xwing set, £30 on three more rebel ships and be in the game for a 5th of the cost of playing warhammer an no painting required.

I actually put forwards a proposal in about 2003 for 'pre painted' warhammer and 40k 'core forces' after seeing how well 'dragon armour' prepainted wwii tanks were selling in 1/72 scale to gamers.

I was told it 'wasnt *the hobby*'.

Clearly it is.....

For what it's worth, that probably would have gotten me into 40k. The idea of building and painting an army has always been so off putting. I don't want it. I don't need it. I'd rather just play with my toys. But I always loved the idea of 40k.

And then FFG built a minis game I could just pick up and _play_. They get my money...

Ok.. how many other companies had a chain of dedicated stores in the US? And in spain, germany etc etc

Cant think of many can you?

When i worked in UK Studio we were next to the studios that had people paid full time to translate books into japanese etc

Its a *much* bigger company than any of its competitors. If you cant see that you've really got your head in the sand.

Gaming in the UK means 'GW' among a teen/pre-teen demographic and for a long long time that was who was buying their stuff.

But just actually think about it objectively for a second. No other company can run 8000 person conventions across the globe like GW does with Games Day. Golden Demon is still (rightly or wrongly) considered the thing to win for most decent fantasy miniature painters.

I think the US probably accounts for less of the market than you think it does. Its very big in the UK and Europe and europe has a historical tradition of wargaming since HG Wells published his little wars (in fact it goes further back than that in germany) and toy soldiers or 'lead figures' have been cultural in Europe for centuries.

The thing we got from the US was 'fantasy RPG' like D&D but actual miniature gaming is pretty big.

But again I think that Europe, Australasia, The UK etc etc, really have a very high demand for GW products.

I mean consider that you have chinese companies ripping off and reproducing GW sprues. They are not going out of their way to make copies of xwing ships are they?

95 per cent was a figure bandied about in GW marketing when i worked there 10 years ago. It may well be less now, it may well be more due to LOTR exposure but in some areas it might 100 per cent if thats the only wargames you can get. It ight be a lot less in your area of the US but lets not quibble about percentages

The point is GW own a *significantly* much larger share of the market than their next nearest competitor.

It might be 80 per cent now but the point still stands that they are producing minatures of a much larger scale than any other company and to them 'miniature sales' are where the money is. They cant and dont make much money on paper products and expansions.. they are simply tools to make the toy soldiers more saleable.

Clearly, for the above reasons your average store isnt going to sell 95 per cent GW products as, like ive outlined, those stores are run and patronised by people who have largely grown out of GW.

GW are reaching that market share via their own webstore, their own retail chain etc and to a degree those FLGS stores that do stock their product.

Don't get too hung up on 95 per cent, i've already said that may have changed in the last 10 years but the thing you probably do have to accept is that every other company is just not in the same league as GW when it comes to size and production.

They might make better stuff but they certainly dont sell a fraction of the amount of gaming materials GW do.

Most people into GW stuff never have to go to another store as GW make everything they need.

Rules, check

Models, check

Glue, check

Paints, check

dice, check

tape meaure, check

scenery, check

actual chuffing game board, check

If you're into GW you dont need to go into a gaming store that sells other stuff and you're probably not interested in that other stuff as you've been sold the 'gw hobby'

So of course you're going to see less of a dominant presence in independent gaming shops.

Edit: I think its also fair to say that for a long time the US market didn't really 'get' the very 'English' tropes in GW culture. There were a lot of references to UK pop culture and the whole idea of a dystopian future where there are *NO* good guys didn't really sit well with people raised on star trek etc. I mean the best 'good guys' you have are either the imperium (total fascists and genocidal racists who torture and worship a corpse god), the eldar (totally aloof, arrogant and cruel) or perhaps the Tau (eldar genetic experiment communists!)

i know from working in the publishing wing for a year on new submissions that the vast majority of US fiction entires we were sent totally misunderstood the tone of warhammer 40,000 and the idea that nobody actually understands how anything *really* works!

I actually put forwards a proposal in about 2003 for 'pre painted' warhammer and 40k 'core forces' after seeing how well 'dragon armour' prepainted wwii tanks were selling in 1/72 scale to gamers.

I was told it 'wasnt *the hobby*'.

Clearly it is.....

For what it's worth, that probably would have gotten me into 40k. The idea of building and painting an army has always been so off putting. I don't want it. I don't need it. I'd rather just play with my toys. But I always loved the idea of 40k.

And then FFG built a minis game I could just pick up and _play_. They get my money...

I knew that, you know that but people in 'group' (the umbrella company that run production, studio, publishing, IT etc) felt that assembling and painting miniatures was really important.

I couldnt get a couple of senior managers to see that to some people just playing is the point and the painting is a faff they could do withouth. But then i was just a department head and i've trying to argue the case to directors.

The problem is they were very far removed from the player base. They knew it wasnt what they wanted in 1983 but couldnt see that in 2003 the market was different.

I tried to put on events for *all* aspects of the GW hobby.

I ran Grand Tournaments for the highly competeitve

Campaign Weekends for those who wanted narrative play

Open days for those wanting to meet the studio staff and play a few 30 min games with crazy tables

and i also created a series of events called 'mastercrafted' where you got to spend two week learing painting and modelling skills from the studio experts.

The problem was, as i say that to some it was all about buying and painting toy soldiers.. the rules and gaming were secondary and merely a tool to make you need '200 skavenslaves'

As far as I can tell (yep, I'm an ex-player too), 40k doesn't have tiers any more. 6th ed killed the game for me, not even looked at 7th.

It's just a mess from what I see.

Glad I'm out. Need to find oldhammer groups now (which shouldn't be too hard given that I live just outside Nottingham, but I'm too busy playing X Wing!)

Im in Beeston just outside Notts if you ever fancy joining our group for a game of xwing!

We also do 3rd edition warhammer and rogue trader oldhammer if you're interested.

Andy H and I do a blog 'tales from the maelstrom' google it and have a look see if you like what we do. I think we're considered one of the pioneering oldhammer movement blogs, got a few hundred followers now i think.

Yeah but you're not seeing the core GW market which is people who only recognise the existance of gw, as 'the hobby'...

...so what you're essentially saying is that GW have a 95% market share in a market which only contains people who think that GW is the be all and end all of hobby wargaming?

My gaming groups given up on GW entirely now two of my friends just dumped a couple of armies each, this is a dozen guys that have played 40k and wfb for two decades and all of us are done we've already moved on to other games systems.

I don't know anyone irl who's pro GW anymore even the die hard fan boys that used to defend the price hikes and poor rules have lost heart.

Mid 2000's yeah 95% I believe, these days no way their named mud on so many forums and when I go past a store it's a ghost town Kirby royally screwed the pooch with his last statement by proudly admitting they don't care what gamers want.

They are desperately rushing out books and new kits with no thought to balance just look at the new Eldar book to see that, they are seeing their player base leave on mass but won't look at why its happening, I expect their financial report this year will show them losing money for the first time.

I knew that, you know that but people in 'group' (the umbrella company that run production, studio, publishing, IT etc)

Umbrella Corporation!?! Now it all makes sense...

Yeah but you're not seeing the core GW market which is people who only recognise the existance of gw, as 'the hobby'...

...so what you're essentially saying is that GW have a 95% market share in a market which only contains people who think that GW is the be all and end all of hobby wargaming?

No, what he is saying is that the 'GW only players/painters' are included within these statistics, and you might possibly be discounting them on account of them not having a presence in your gaming circles.

I'm a little confronted by these counter-arguments thrown at Gadge here. Gadge has provided documented figures in support of his claims, and he has provided detailed information based on his personal experiences from within GW . Yet, he is met with posts basically equating to "Nah, you're wrong."

This discussion has moved from one of personal opinion. If you disagree with Gadge's claims ... prove him wrong. He seems like the kind of guy that would appreciate an update on the current market.

No, what he is saying is that the 'GW only players/painters' are included within these statistics, and you might possibly be discounting them on account of them not having a presence in your gaming circles.

Nah, I think Gadge had it right the first time.

the core GW market which is people who only recognise the existance of gw, as 'the hobby'

GW's core market is apparently GW-only customers. And they have a 95% market share of that demographic (lol)

You cant really look at whats being played in a FLGS and equate sales off that.

GW stance = "FLGS doesn't count, our products are THE hobby, anyone who plays anything else is irrelevant to our statistics."

...and that ostrich-like approach to the marketplace is pretty why GW's games have devolved into a clusterfunk of biblical proportions.

Yeah but you're not seeing the core GW market which is people who only recognise the existance of gw, as 'the hobby'...

...so what you're essentially saying is that GW have a 95% market share in a market which only contains people who think that GW is the be all and end all of hobby wargaming?

No, what he is saying is that the 'GW only players/painters' are included within these statistics, and you might possibly be discounting them on account of them not having a presence in your gaming circles.

I'm a little confronted by these counter-arguments thrown at Gadge here. Gadge has provided documented figures in support of his claims, and he has provided detailed information based on his personal experiences from within GW . Yet, he is met with posts basically equating to "Nah, you're wrong."

This discussion has moved from one of personal opinion. If you disagree with Gadge's claims ... prove him wrong. He seems like the kind of guy that would appreciate an update on the current market.

Thanks dude, i was beginning to feel like im talking to a wall here.

Like i say 95 per cent was a figure i certainly heard int he mid 2000s, its possibly less that that now but can we please stop obsessing with that percentage.

The point is that other games companies make a tiny fraction of what GW do... honestly its minute. Consider that 'kings of war' is a fantasy system that is fairly well marketed, by ex GW heads, make a lot of plastics but have a fraction of the share GW have.

I've shown you figures for that.

Likewise 'bolt action' is ex GW head honcho john stallard, ex white dwarf editor paul sawyer and ex studio writers like warwick kinrade (IIRC).

again they are possibly the 2nd most popular wwii rules i know of at the moment after 'flames of war' (im afraid i couldnt find tangible assets for those guys).

so you know i think i've proved the points i was trying to make.

1. The BIGGEST rival companies are worth a pittance compared to GW

2. FLGS proportion of games sold doesnt reflect market share as it doesnt take into account the huge retail chain that *only* sell GW products. If you live in a town with a GW store its pointless trying to compete with them by selling their stuff.

3. GWs online sales these days are pretty huge, as is the amount of stuff sold on ebay and to a smaller degree 'resale' webstores that deal in vintage GW stuff... I use a lot of these, the GW stuff they get in flies out and goes for £10 a figure on average for old 80s lead. A 'grenadier' or FASA model from the same period stays on the store stock forever and fetches 10 per cent if that of the price.

So yeah if you think im wrong that GW have an overwhelmingly huge proportion of the market share (ill concede it may no longer be the previously touted 95 percent but its still clearly a larger share than all the other companies making fantasy games put together) then fair enough but show me some actual publically listed figures to back up your claims eh?

I actually cant do much more than show you the FAME figures for 2014.

...and that ostrich-like approach to the marketplace is pretty why GW's games have devolved into a clusterfunk of biblical proportions.

Yeah you know you're so right.. iif i was making FIFTEEN MILLION POUNDS A YEAR selling toy soldiers i'd totally consider myself an epic failure and throw in the towel too....

Seriously look at it objectively. We've all moved on from the GW gaming experience. Most of us yearn for the 'golden years of gw' (this btw is entirely subjective, its always the first two years you were into GW stuff... my 'golden ages is the mid to late 80s... to others it the 90s etc). we think they are failing because they are not making stuff we want to buy, we think its rubbish, we've found a better game in xwing, infinity, malifaux, battletech.... whatever.

But enough people clearly do like what they are doing to spend enough of their hard earned cash to give GW a 2014 revenue of over ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY MILLION POUNDS

I personally dont see making money on that scale, on a 'we're a business, we're trying to make money' level to be in any way a failure.

The problem for *us* lies in that when GW went shareheld in the early 90s they no longer had to make stuff that was cool and make enough money to pay every one. They now had to make stuff that made an increasing profit to keep shareholders (many of them who knew nothing about wargaming but were tolf to 'invest in this stock') happy and increase their dividends.

So GW cant afford to take risks like smaller companies do. They have to make and revise the things that sell.

Also because of the nature of their 'high street gaming centre shop/club' market they can only have a limited amount of 'box space' for each range. Thats why you're seeing so many kits that can make two types of vehicle from the contents. Each 'race' only has alloted shelf space for (and im making this up as ive not been in a gw store for months) 2 big tanks, 5 small box, 10 blister packs.

if something new gets made something old has to be deleted.

If you run a cottage industry webstore based game you can afford to have 980 different blister packs for 'elves'. Gw have room for 10 as every store has to be able to stock the entire range.

Look im not trying to defend GW. Ive a lot of mates who still work there and i'd like them to keep their jobs so i dont want to see GW fold but on the flipside i have not bought anything other than ink washes and the big space marine statue/scenery pack fom GW in about a decade. I buy old 80s stuff off ebay, stuff i liked when I was a kid.

Yep, i dont really like what they are doing these days much either and yep loads of us older gamers are turning our backs on workshop but they are still huge, they are still making more money than all the other games co's put together i'd imagine and lets be honest they are not going anywhere soon.

Even if GW's share price plummeted you'd just see hasbro or the like buy them up and then the games *really* turn into toys.

Yeah but you're not seeing the core GW market which is people who only recognise the existance of gw, as 'the hobby'...

...so what you're essentially saying is that GW have a 95% market share in a market which only contains people who think that GW is the be all and end all of hobby wargaming?

No, what he is saying is that the 'GW only players/painters' are included within these statistics, and you might possibly be discounting them on account of them not having a presence in your gaming circles.

I'm a little confronted by these counter-arguments thrown at Gadge here. Gadge has provided documented figures in support of his claims, and he has provided detailed information based on his personal experiences from within GW . Yet, he is met with posts basically equating to "Nah, you're wrong."

This discussion has moved from one of personal opinion. If you disagree with Gadge's claims ... prove him wrong. He seems like the kind of guy that would appreciate an update on the current market.

Yes GW is number one. They've had a long time to secure that spot. But there are clear contents over here to. PP has been at their heels for some time. And now X Wing has become a powerhouse of it's own. It has displaced PP for second place. And who knows how far they would have gotten without their notorious habit of selling out for long periods of time. To keep insisting that the hobby industry outside of GW only accounts for 5 to 10 percent of the entire market is not only wrong, it's self deluded.

http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/30953/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-holiday-2014

http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/30000/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-summer-2014

http://icv2.com/articles/games/view/30000/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-summer-2014