As there are so many of these topics going around at the moment i thought it would be a good time to start a topic on my new favourite charcter (at least until Taki comes out in the next set then Nina will be my second favourite) and her support. Also at the same time i will talk about the deck i have to hopefully prove that if played right shes better than some people think.

Nina Williams
6/27
Air Death Void
F: Look at the top 5 cards of your opponent's deck. Choose 1 card and add it to their discard pile. Add the rest of the cards back to the top of your opponent's deck in any order. Only playable once per turn.

Right i may be pointing out the obviouse for some of this but i think it will be easyer to cover everything instead of go for bits and peices.
I have at the moment got a Death build of Nina (with 1 card off symbol off of Air and Void)
I will post the deck list so you can see where im coming from.

Characters x1
1x Nina Williams 6/6 +0M Air Death Void 6HS 27V (Main)

Attacks x19
4x Ice Pick 6/3 +2H M4-7 Kick Nina Williams Combo (Kick) Air Death Void
4x Wipe the Floor 5/3 +1M L3-4 Kick Air Death Void
4x Head Ringer 4/3 +2M H3-4 Kick Death Void
3x Two Deadly Rings Technique 2/3 +3M M2-2 Breaker:2 Ranged Stun:2 Death
2x Shockwave Palm 5/3 +2L M4-4 Powerful:2 Punch Air Death Void
2x Spinning Demon 4/3 +1L L3-4 Kick Multiple:1 Death Void

Assets x3
3x Path of the Master 2/5 +2M Unique Infinity

Foundations x37
4x Keeper of the Watchers 2/5 Air Death
4x Unknown Son 2/5 +3H Air Death Void
4x Proffesional Bodyguard 2/5 Air Death Void
4x Mishima Zaibatsu Leader 2/5 +2H Air Void
3x Fury of the North 3/5 +3M Death
3x War between Sisters 3/5 +3M Air Death Void
3x Stoic Assassin 2/5 Air Death Void
3x Sworn to Protect 2/4 Air Death Void
3x The Twilight Witch 2/4 Death
3x Maniacal Laughter 2/5 +3H Death
3x Treacherous Offspring 1/5 Death

Ok some of the cards I have just listed may seem a bit odd to me, but believe me this decklist is the result of hours of playtesting and edditing and i dare say that there will be more to come.
Lets go through the cards 1 by one then, I wont list all of their abilities because it would take too much time and space, so instead i will ask you to search any cards you dont recognise on a certain Cool site.

Nina Williams herself, I have always loved Nina in Tekken (second on to Lei Wulong) First her ability. It lets you look at the top 5 cards of the opponents deck not only letting you discard one but also letting you rearange the rest in any order you want. The best part, the opponent doesnt know what is there at all! Not anly can you discard attacks you can rearange block checks, also dont forget if the opponent is drawing less than 4 cards next turn you can also hack their first check next turn. You dont have to discard attacks though, sometimes if you are planning a string of attacks you might want to discard the most annoying foundation there and leave the attacks on top for checks or RFG if you can. With Nina you have to foreplan alot but if it is done properly you can manipulate your opponents easily.
Nina is great against combo decks, not only does she discard the combo from the opponents deck she has her own support to discard the parts the opponent holds on to. All in all her ability has the be the focus point of the deck but that is no big deal as she has plenty of stuff to go along side it aswell as with it.

Ice Pick is a reason to play Nina, with a 3 check it cannot be ignored. All i hear from my playgroup is that her combo ability isnt great because of the limitation of the oppoent having to have more cards in the RFG pile than you do, doing so could not be easyer the only disadvantage is that you cannot muligan if you want to kill with this card, dont worry if you HAVE to mulligan seeing as i have found i havent needed its ability all the time due to the fact of making the opponet check a 3 or lower or discarding their hand first. Ice Pick is also a kick, so if needs be you can combo into an Ice Pick from an Ice Pick. Put with POTM Ice Pick can be painfull, also with Fury of the North late game it can be deadly. Being (i believe) the only possible unblockable attack in the current format. Its normal E is not to be ignored either, as a friend pointed out to me after Nina or Stoic Assassin the oppoent will usualy have checks once or twice, this allowes you to see the next few cards you didnt see previousely and if needs be rearange them. All in all apart from the fact of it being UR there is no excuse not to run Ice Pick in Nina.
Downsides? Have to set up quite a bit to pull it off efectively and have to work a tad to get the RFG element working.

Wipe the Floor is a fnatastic attack in its own right, by no means does it have to be played just in Nina. +1M Block Yum. Low zone Nice. 3 check awsome. Its abilities, commit 1 make the opponent discard 1 and Void E if it deals damage name a card opponent reveals hand and discards ALL COPIES of the named card. That bottom ablitiy doesn't look like much at first but when you think about it, no matter what you name you get to look. Also if the opponent only has two cards in hand and you have Keeper of the Watchers on the field thats ther hand gone- discard 1 cards please, show me the next, void enhance. Either you block with that one card or discard it please. you can do the same if the opponent has three cards in hand, you have Keeper of the Watchers and War between Sisters on the field.
Dowsides? 5 diff

Head Ringer is a great card but only realy in Nina, good block, its ability allowes set up for Ice Pick or just to RFG an annoyance from the top of the opponents deck. Either the opponent blocks and checks the annoyence or they RFG the card. Yes it can stop it helping Ice Pick if they block but with the Twilight Witch or Unknown Son you can RFG the block anyway during the Ice Pick.
Downsides? off symbol for POTM. Not so good in anyone but Nina

Two Deadly Rings Technique may seem like an odd selection but all in all it is a great card. I first noticed it while i was playing Evil Mist, iv always liked small attacks that are annoying on the end of a string. I got fed up of Evil Mist not ever going to the momentum. I look for alternatives and i found TDRT outranks it entirely. Its 1 less diff same damage but actualy damage, it RFG for Ice Pick, Nina gets to select the Card/s RFG (put an asset on top and then something else annoying), it has stun 2 (like Evil Mist) and it has breaker 2 (as such goes great with Sworn to Protect)
Downsides? its UR, not a kick

Shockwave Palm is great with Nina's discard and changing the opponents checks, any attack with powerfull is great, it has an off zone block and is just great as an alternate kill or damageing attack midway. its ability is just a bonus realy, you would play it because you could.
Downsides? UR, 5 Diff

Spinning Demon is in because Multiple is awsome in the current format, i also put it in because i needed another attack to go into Ice Pick with. Nice Low block and low zone.
Downsides? I cant use the ability, but others can and theres no reason why you cant run character blocks.

Path of the Master.... I dont realy need to say much here, on Ice Pick it is nasty and at any time you have gaurenteed a hit it should be played.

Keeper of the Watchers is great as explained for Wipe the Floor not only that it is good speed pump to push your opponents block out of reach seeing as you will have hopefully put a bad check on top of their deck.

Unknown Son is good to set up for Ice Pick.

Professional Bodyguard is fantastic in my opinion, its COST is to discard a block from your card pool. Also it wants you to commit A foundation not itself so you can use it multiple times, also you cant complain at -2 damage. It also combos great with Sworn to Protect- i block discard it block with it again, discard it. With blocking being so important in this format, this is a good choise.

Mishima Zaibatsu Leader is off symbol yes but with it sharing 2 symbols with all of ninas support its easy to play, discarding a momentum to gain one of your own is great.

Fury of the North is a great emergency kill. late game if you still havent killed your opponent yet playing an ice pick and commiting everything else for pump is deadly, not to mention if you have POTM on the field too.

War between Sisters is more discard, thats great and it has an awsome second ability if you need it.

Stoic Assassin will take a bit of expplaining. Most people in my meta (including myself at first) didnt understand why anyone would want to play this card in Nina when she effectively does it herself and better. While playing Nina i found that the best part of Nina was getting rid of the opponents attacks by making them block and then seeing what they are drawing, but what if they dont block, you have just left an attack on top of their deck when you could have disacarded it or what if they do block, they are now drawing into a load of cards you dont know about. Stoic Assassin gets round both these problems. Instead of playing Nina at the beggining of the turn you play Stoic assin instead. put anything unwanted on top of the deck and then force them to block, if they dont you have nina to fall back on and if theydo you can use nina at the end of the turn to look at the cards they WILL be drawing and get rid of the main annoyance or maybe put one of them out of their reach.

Sworn to Protect is great, it allowes you to recycle blocks as well as keep cards in hand that you want for next turn, as pointed out in Proffesional Bodyguard it works great with it.

The Twilight Witch is there for Asset hate and RFG for Ice Pick.

Maniacle Laughter is there for emergency momentum gain ( the amount of times iv been 1 or 2 momentum off of killing) and getting that ice stun 1 on an attack.

Treacherous Offspring is there for a 1/5 and once again Emergency momentum gain, it is usualy used to pass checks though.

Lets look at Ninas others cards that i havent mentioned.

Cold and indifferent.... i dont think there is room for this card in many decks, for an action it does what Wipe the Floor does but on their turn yes that can be good but i dont think theres room for it unless you want to side it against a christy or another combo deck. Dont get me wrong if you want to run it by all means do, it isnt a bad card, i just think it isnt worth the space but that is only my oppinion!

Proficient Sniper is also good but again no room for it. I mean i love the fact it does Literally Snipe something from the opponents deck. still its hard to get hold of, high difficulty low check as an action there isnt much room for it against some other things. Once again this is only my oppinion! If you want to run it by all means do!

Leathal Fighting Style is great at first glance but then you see its First form and as such you cant get a chnace to know what is in the opponents hand too well and it doesnt last into the opponents turn, id rather a foundation with lower difficulty was in the deck.

Purple Army Suit is another good card that i dont think there is much room for in decks also with the momentum cost and the limitation to if the opponent having 4 or more cards in hand just doesnt make it good enough to make the cut, once again good but not enough

Sadistic Cupid is a card i have been umming and errring about for ages, i love it, i think it can work in so many ways, but i found at some points in the game it got in the way in my hand and the momentum cost was sometimes hard to have when i needed it. i am still considering putting it back in, if you want to run it in Nina do so and try it out for yourself. let me know what you think on this one especialy!

Evil Mist is great but outranked by Two deadly Rings technique in everything but the block.

Sharing a Moment realy bugs me! why is the defence against Nina and all her Support in Ninas own support! WHY!? if you want to sidedeck against Nina this card and the Rashotep one that does something similar are needed.

Keep them down looked good to me at fist but the numbers werent good enough in the end 3 diff 4 check for something that i can do to a lesser degree anyway with other cards... maybe in a pure discard deck it will be usefull. but also i find it rare that my opponent has 4 or more cards in their hand during my turn.

Nina has quite a couple of weaknesses like most decks, just thought id mention them to be fair.
Seeing as you realy need to build Nina around her ability JJ is an obvious weakness.
Ice Pick is impossible to pull off properly without set up, so Kazuya and Knightmare are again more weaknesses.

Thats all i can name for now, no doubt il remember something i missed out as soon as the option to edit goes.... so look for updates.

So..... what do you think? let me know! have I canged a few minds about Nina? have I angered anybody? am I about to be proved wrong? I want to hear it all! just no low blows ok? im allowing comments i may not like but i want them to be put nicely!

Congrats to anyone who read this epic in one go and/or all the way through!

Theo

Nice post Paul. From what I saw friday Nina has some potential as awesome control character..

You bring up a fact that many have over looked. It is that you control your opponents deck. In the current meta character cards are strong but controlling when one can attack and when one can play foundations is stronger. The RFG ability Nina has puts her in an interesting position because she can punish those who run less then 18 attacks in their deck. She can get rid of key assets like your opponents POTM or Terrerain card. I wouldn't drop proficent sniper for one good reason. It lets you look at the whole of your opponents deck. You get to know what their deck is built around and what it does and does not have. This is a strong ability that most don't think about. The intel alone is worth it. My question is have you played Zhao yet? I've done well with her in my own play testing but when it came tourney time she lost badly. The reason I bring this up is that the tech is very similar. The control element she offers strong but her offense is weak.

Some side questions to ask you really fast. Are the checks for drawing her support seem to flow easily? Is damage negation a problem for her to overcome? How are you dealing with Ivy and Rashotep? Do you find yourself being moved to play more agressive or cautious with the character?

Update! My internal war about Sadistic Cupid has been resolved! The 2 Spinning Demons have been taken out and 3 Sadistic Cupids have been put in their place, taking the deck count to 61.
Also the 3 Treacherous Offspring are going to be taken out for 3 Cursed Bloods, I didn't realise my collection partner had them.

@ Darklogos:- Thanks for the reply, the comments and the questions. Your point about Proficient Sniper has realy made me look at it again. I suppose i never realy paid attention to it because it was the only Nina R/SR i failed to aquire at our pre release. I am now considering putting it into the deck but i cant think of anything to take out for it, my first thought was to take out Twilight Witch to minimise 4 checks but then i realised i would be taking out one of the few foundation based RFG pieces, because Proficient Sniper removes itself from the game aswell i would not be abole to Ice Pick with just Proficient snipers RFG, il do some testing and see, also your oppinion on the matter would be welcome too. Thanks for pointing this out or i wouldnt have noticed it untill someone else was smacking it in my face!

Now to your questions:
"My question is have you played Zhao yet? I've done well with her in my own play testing but when it came tourney time she lost badly. The reason I bring this up is that the tech is very similar. The control element she offers strong but her offense is weak."
I dont believe Nina is like Zhao that much at all, i have played against a competative one before and it was rather deadly but Zhao doesnt control in the way Nina does, Nina selectively gets rid of things, Zhao RFG's things that have been used or unknown things. Zhao burns wheras Nina controls the opponent into walking into her boot!

"Are the checks for drawing her support seem to flow easily?"
The checks (at least i think thats what you mean) are fine with no 2 or less checks in the deck the first turn can usualy be a gurenteed minimum 2 cards plus what luck deems you worthy of from there, which may sound bad, but that allows a great turn 3 to set up more if needed and then from then on attack constantly and put on loads of pressure. Seeing as Nina can slow the opponent down aswell by getting rid of key cards and attacks she doesnt have too much problem with a slow set up. and for drawing her support (im treating those as two seperate questions because im a bit confused of how they were merged into one IF that is what you meant.... sorry if its not) Its not too bad, it would have to be one of the lower points of the deck though, with POTM as the only draw piece and only 1 card it can trigger off what you get in and you are stuck with, now with 20 attacks in the deck that should be enough to have what you need most turns but luck is never what we want it to be and can sometimes give you nothing but foundations.

"Is damage negation a problem for her to overcome?"
Now this might be hard for me to answer, i have not come across a deck yet that can completely negate my damage constantly, i have come across one or two that can do it every now and then but i can work round that by POTMing anything i NEED to hit after they have finished reducing. I suppose i would adopt the same tactic against a pure reduction deck but as of yet i dont think it will be too much of a threat.

"How are you dealing with Ivy and Rashotep?"
Ivy i have not played yet with Nina the main though was to get rid of their switching weapon styles as much as possible and then whatever else that may be annoying. Now we have one Rashotep in the meta and i have played him 3 times so far. At first i forgot about Rashoteps and attacked before i used Nina which resulted in and insta Nina blank but as soon as i realised that would happen i played around it, Rashotep is the only character where i cant use Stoic Assasin effectively but its livable without. I must admit though it did get annoying having nearly my entire staging area blanked every turn.

"Do you find yourself being moved to play more agressive or cautious with the character?"
I have found you have to be flexable in you playstyle. I suppose you could count my usual way of playing the deck as offensive purely as i dont care if i cant kill you im hitting you hard now so i can 1 hit kill you with an unblockable later, also you will find that you will want to attack more seeing as half of Nina's general control lays in her attacks (Sadistic Cupid, Wipe the Floor, Headringer and Two deadly Rings Technique) You play cautiosly when the opponent has got round your control in some way or is simply outplaying you.

Theo

Nina is definitely one of the more flexible characters of the block, if not the most, due to her ability to be offensive (put their lowest checks to top), defensive (discard an attack so they draw all foundations), controlling (know what they draw into, abuse name-then-discard theme), and threat-removing (ability + sniper, etc).

I still think she's best off Death, but hey, maybe Void?

Nina has an unblockable attack that combos off itself, and works very well off her support.

Thanks Theo for answering my questions. I think the issue the Nina tech has is that it does not translate into obvious damage and control. Until we get things that recover RFG cards Nina has a strong skill. The setup analysis is very useful. I think that by looking at the start of the game is an element of tech that is overlooked. I found that with the King stuff that it was hard to setup due to the high difficulity. What your saying with the Nina tech is that even if you start slow your opponent is going at your speed. I'm going to try to construct a ghetto Nina deck since I could only afford one box. I also like how you answered my questions about Zhao.

Consider the most important and forgotten detail about Purple Army Suit: it can be played on any attack, including your opponent's first attack.

If you know what they are drawing, and you will, you know what they have. If you don't want to get Midnight Launcher to the face, with 1 momentum you won't EVER have to. Play the E on their first attack, they will most likely have 4 or more cards in hand, get rid of annoyance you KNOW is happening, block and keep going.

i might try to add one or two devil gene to this deck. simply put this card shuts off your average kill turn. i don't know what to take out for this card, but i really would suggest adding a pair of this card.

Here is the deck I sort of cobbled together. Tell me what you think.

Actions

Proficent Sniper x1

Cold and Indifferent x1

Destruction in his wake x1

Unatural Grace x1

Attacks

Evil mist x2

Sadistic Cupid x 4

Demon Slayer x2

Lion Slayer x4

Head Ringer x4

Wipe the floor x3

Swing Kick x2

Lighting Uppercut x1

Ice Pick x1

Foundations

Shattered Persona x2

Fury of the North x1

Mesmerizing dance x3

Merciless Fighter x4

Manical Lughter x3

Sworn to PROTECT X4

Proffesional Bodyguard x4

Stoic Assassin x2

Sharing A moment x3

War between Sisters x4

Twilight witch x4

Unknown Son x4

The idea is to RFG whatever I can. I would use Nina's ability at the beginning of the turn. I have a Ice Pick and Lighting Uppercut as finishers. I have some damage pumps when I get Ice Pick to pump the crap out of it and then get the unblockable element off.

It has everything a Nina deck should have to make it good. It also has enough of a twist to be surprising, of course in my oppinion you would need more copies of some of the cards but i dont know whether thats just through lack of availability for you or not.
let me know how it goes in games!

Theo

I'm going to test it out with my friend tonight. I got to get used to the fact that I need to remember the order of the top 3 cards when I use other abilities. I have 3 or less of certain cards because I don't have more copies. Ice Pick is awesome and I have fury of the north in there to make sure its a kill condition card. The Uppercut attack is another finisher. Its there to give people a little shocker at the end.

darklogos said:

Well, I hope everything goes well. I find candle-lit dinners work best, but I can understand if you're going to go out to the movies.

Hehe, had to.

Fury of the North is OK, but what about Berserker Rage? Death has plenty of damage pumps indeed. I'm not too huge a fan of Ice Pick, but yeah, I can see where it's a great card. I just feel Wipe the Floor + War Between Sisters ought to be enough to rid them of their hand.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Yes but sometimes not quite good enough. Yes wipe the floor +war between sisters +Keeper of the watchers is a great combination but what if they have too many cards in hand, what if you dont have Wipe the floor in your hand etc, either way Ice pick will have to be the second attack so it doesnt matter which way round your doing it, if you discard their hand then ice pick you wont have to check that pesky 6 for its ability which means more cards for effects/pumps or CC pumping for another attack afterwards.

Edit: UPDATE!: Proficient Sniper is now in the side deck! the amount is still undetermined because i have 2 atm and am not sure whether i will be able to get hold of 1 or 2 more. also not sure what else to put in the side deck to take it up to 8 cards.... Suggestions?

Theo

I think Eiserne Drossel could be a nice add. Also for defensive pieces, flexible body, ka technique (for more control)

Tested the deck andI came with the following conclusions.

1. I can't beat Ivy. Tried to get rid of those pesky Switching weapon styles or tried to make them checks she just researches the past and kills me. Tried to get rid of attacks and make attacks checks. Again researching the past ruins it. If I had another Icepick or 2 I could probably kill her. I just need to remove one card from the game to get it to be unblockable (that is what fury of the north was for to make it a guranteed kill condition)

2. Yi Shan beat me bad at first. Then I decided to remove big attacks and make his attacks checks. Then Nina did a lot better. Once Iron body tech builds up the game is over and you've lost. Ice Pick is unblockable but still can have its damage reduced.

3. This is a character that still needs a set or 2 to be viable and some more ideas to flush hout with her.

4. She will not be a cheap character to build I think that good money will need to be dropped to make her be a consistent threat.

5. Modern UFS control hurts Nina a lot because if her RFG are blanked she is to many steps behind other characters.

I think the character is good and introduces a great control mechanic. I think the character needs more to catch up to other decks.

Well Darklogos, I have some things to say about your commentary...

1. I realize Ice Pick is the only Nina card with her name in an ability, but that doesn't mean you need to run it. Yes, it's good, but if your kill is specifically Ice Pick and using Fury of the North, then may I gladly suggest adding in a more reliable kill. I'd go with 4 Wipe the Floor - 3 Ice Pick - 3 Launcher - 4 Knight Breaker, maybe even add 3 Leg Slash.

2. You ARE using Proficient Sniper, aren't you? Proficient RFGs cards, yes? Proficient is the absolute nail in the coffin of an Ivy. Also, why would you ditch Switching Weapon Styles when you KNOW they have Researching the Past? Furthermore, if she's using RTP to try to draw SWS, Purple Army Suit can declare it if it's in her hand. If Castle Twilight is giving you issues, either use Scroll of the Abyss to destroy it, or Ancient Burial Ground to replace it (thus destroying it) AND being able to blank Path of the Master. Once Path is blanked, Ivy's going to have to try that much harder.

3. Nina has access to both Wipe the Floor abuse and War Between Sisters, and as such, Ice Pick isn't a necessity because discard is so easy to win with. If you're afraid of anti-discard, stick to Wipe the Floor's Void enhance, Sadistic Cupid, and Purple Army Suit.

Nina doesn't really need Ice Pick. Her F can be used to rig their checks, with discard slicing through their hand, which, combined with CCrigging, will lead to failed blocks and thus unblocked attacks.

I'm gonna have to disagree here; while Ice Pick might not be the essential piece to Nina 's success, having an unblockable kill button with Fury of the North makes Ice Pick one of the safer finishes in the business, and that's not something you discard out of hand. Your opponent can afford to fail blocks all day if all you're hitting him with is 4-5 damage attacks.

Again, I much prefer using Nina to rig their checks, skillfully discard their cards (making me safe), and if they don't have anti-discard, make them regret it by ditching their hand with Sisters' Floor.

Again, Ice Pick is cool bunnies n' all, but why bother with an unblockable attack when they have no hand/no blocks?

MarcoPulleaux said:

Check out my deck list again. I don't have a lot of cards. Most of the solutions you listed I don't have access to. Profficent sniper only helps so much. I bring up the researching the past issue is that anything of value that hits the ditch from any of your skills she will get it back. I think the first thing to go for is Researching the Past and hopefully you can stop your opponent from pulling it. Profficent Sniper is a catch 22 to some extent. YOu have to call out the card you are going to remove before you search the deck. The first game can be risky in general against some decks because there are some constructs that are in flux. Against Ivy Switching Weapon styles is the first to go for. No one in my area has POTM or Ancient Burial Ground. Thing is I look at Ice Pick as the easiest to abuse attack in the game. You are going to have less RFG cards then other players. If you have landed your other attacks and made your checks then you will be able to end the game pretty fast. But Fury of the North needs a bit more setup time then Ivy gives which causes problems.

darklogos said:

You're supposed to base your arguments as though you DO, that way you have an understanding of how the game is, not just your particular area (unless that is the matter at hand).

Also, Proficient Sniper is pretty much dependent on how well you know the Metagame. If you're smart, you shouldn't even be playing it first turn. Wait until you see cards in their discard pile (from their many control checks).

If you're against Astrid, you know she'll have Paying Respects to Your Ancestors. If you're against Ivy, you know she'll have Switching Weapon Styles and Genius Alchemist. The list goes on and on. It isn't risky at all when you understand the predictable metagame we live in now.

MarcoPulleaux said:

The practicality of that for me is nill. The reason I say that is the closest playgroup is 2 hours away. My crew is far from the point of tourney hoping let alone big tournies. So perfect hypothetical decks don't serve me. So how the "game is" for me is far different then many that surf these boards. They don't help me win in my local meta which matters to me more. With that said I should post the deck in another thread for practicality purposes.

One method of tech building is to build poor man decks and see how it goes and what were the problems. I am using that method.

I'm also one to question must haves and see how the game goes without those must have cards. The problem is at this stage of presenting new ideas and trying to quickly solidify a base we may lose potential tech ideas due to rushing.