Yes the falcon does has more than 10 hp but you would obviously have more than just 2 awings in your squad as well.

You could taking out a falcon in 1 turn with 2 awings

If you don't mean two A-wings, why did you say two A-wings?

Besides, the Falcon is a 1 agility ship. Unless it's a Fat one (and nerfing Fat Falcon-ness is no bad thing) there's not really that much difference to its single defence die turning up blanks. The Falcon is not a good example for a counterpoint at all. Phantoms and Interceptors are the counterpoint.

Fluff-wise, it works perfectly.

Except it doesn't, that's my main problem with it. Torpedoes tend to be for killing the bigger, less agile ships, it'd make torpedoes better against the nimble ones.

I can change my original post to "practically take out a falcon in 1 turn by themselves" if you'd like.

One nice part of simply lowering agility is that the Falcon would roll zero dice against a missle/torpedo attack and C-3PO would not trigger.

The question remains, would lowering defender agility by 1 be broken? Would it be enough to make ordnance an attractive option?

One nice part of simply lowering agility is that the Falcon would roll zero dice against a missle/torpedo attack and C-3PO would not trigger.

The question remains, would lowering defender agility by 1 be broken? Would it be enough to make ordnance an attractive option?

I think if you could fire them out of arc they'd be fine. People are happy with the hot-shot blaster, missiles and torps tend to have a bit more bite but require an action to launch and cost a little more. Seems like an easy, fluffy-ish nudge to secondaries that gives them a bit more versatility and makes them easier to use

Always liked that one but it makes ordnance better against agile ships...

It does, but only if you actually hit them first. Which is kind of fluffy in and of itself - a TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor which actually gets hit by a torpedo or missile will go boom. No ifs or buts or maybes.

Hitting said TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor is easier said than done, however; you still have to get them in arc, for a start. Then you have to hit with four dice, usually with very few ways to modify them if you're spending target lock to fire them (Homing Missiles might be a little OP, especially on PtL A-Wings, I'll grant that much).

But of course, if your expensive arc-dodger is REALLY worried about being one-shotted by a missile, then there's always Expert Handling...

....and of course, ordnance in numers will cause big damage to large or low agility ships too, just as intended. They'll undoubtedly get hit, and they won't be able to avoid the damage.

As far as I know, I am the originator of the idea (If I'm wrong, please correct me, I want to give credit where due). I was madly in love with the idea for a long while. I still want to love it.

Fluff-wise, it works perfectly. But from a gameplay perspective, it would be rather unfun to know that my awesome arcdodgers of doom would get evaporated by a squad of 6 Z-95s.

As far as I know,. you are. Not trying to claim credit, just like the idea.

And if you're flying your arc dodgers straight at a squad of six missile-equipped Z95's, then just as you would in X-Wing the PC game, you deserve everything you get. They're called arc-dodgers for a reason, you know!

I still think the "if it hits cancel all defense dice" is op. You could taking out a falcon in 1 turn with 2 awings with proton rockets. I think a better solution is to not have to spend the TL only require that you have a target lock that way you can reroll bad rolls.

Please bear in mind also that this suggestion is not saying "you take full damage from the attack", but "all defence dice results are cancelled". The attacker may cause two or three damage with the attack, the defender rolls all blanks... and suffers two or three damage. No more.

That may almost make ordnance OP. Can you imagine Blount with any missile? He'd be one of the best pilots in the game.

Why? Because his ordnance "always hits"? Great. He still would need to actually roll enough damage with his attack dice, it's not going to be that game-breaking. Blount's ability would still really be only useful as an Assault Missile/Ion Pulse Missile dellivery system.

There are only a couple of instances where this might become ridiculous - mainly with Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets, i.e. cards that were in of themselves attempts to fix the problems with ordnance.

Still concerned? Errata the wording to read:

"When you are required to spend a Target Lock to make an ordnance attack, if this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

Suddenly Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets are no longer a problem.

I think if you could fire them out of arc they'd be fine. People are happy with the hot-shot blaster, missiles and torps tend to have a bit more bite but require an action to launch and cost a little more. Seems like an easy, fluffy-ish nudge to secondaries that gives them a bit more versatility and makes them easier to use

I do not recall what ordnance requires a target lock but I could picture ordnance tracking even target behind you. That would most definitely shake up the game.

But is that enough for a one-shot weapon to be worth taking over and HLC?

Simple ordnance fix, suggested and discussed elsewhere:

"If this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

You're hit by a missile/torpedo, you take ALL damage rolled.

As far as I know, I am the originator of the idea (If I'm wrong, please correct me, I want to give credit where due). I was madly in love with the idea for a long while. I still want to love it.

But someone pointed out to me that this idea gives concussion missiles a 75% chance of 1 shotting Fel. That's probably gone down a bit with Autothrusters, but it's still way imbalanced.

Fluff-wise, it works perfectly. But from a gameplay perspective, it would be rather unfun to know that my awesome arcdodgers of doom would get evaporated by a squad of 6 Z-95s.

When I read this I too thought it was great. But when I read your example about the 6 X-95s. Ouch. You don't think this will be off-set but a combination of Auto-Thrusters (which you did mention) and the fact these weapons are one-shot; one-chance?

I sort-of liked the other ideas too: reducing Green Dice by one; firing out of arc.

I guess here's what I'd do...

Key word: Dumbfire - Agility Dice may be used to avoid damage.

This keyword would be applied to things like "Proton Rockets," especially since it consumes a focus and not a target lock to fire it. In fact, I'd almost make it a function of Target Lock... When spending a target lock to fire ordinance, defender does not get defense dice, and takes all damage rolled. This means if you use Proton Rockets, defense dice are allowed because they are basically dumb fire missiles. This would also mean if you use that Elite Pilot Skill that says you may trade a Focus Token for a Target Lock to fire a missile... Again, attacker is dumb firing, so the defender gets to use their defense dice to evade.

Always liked that one but it makes ordnance better against agile ships...

It does, but only if you actually hit them first. Which is kind of fluffy in and of itself - a TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor which actually gets hit by a torpedo or missile will go boom. No ifs or buts or maybes.

Hitting said TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor is easier said than done, however; you still have to get them in arc, for a start. Then you have to hit with four dice, usually with very few ways to modify them if you're spending target lock to fire them (Homing Missiles might be a little OP, especially on PtL A-Wings, I'll grant that much).

But of course, if your expensive arc-dodger is REALLY worried about being one-shotted by a missile, then there's always Expert Handling...

....and of course, ordnance in numers will cause big damage to large or low agility ships too, just as intended. They'll undoubtedly get hit, and they won't be able to avoid the damage.

As far as I know, I am the originator of the idea (If I'm wrong, please correct me, I want to give credit where due). I was madly in love with the idea for a long while. I still want to love it.

Fluff-wise, it works perfectly. But from a gameplay perspective, it would be rather unfun to know that my awesome arcdodgers of doom would get evaporated by a squad of 6 Z-95s.

As far as I know,. you are. Not trying to claim credit, just like the idea.

And if you're flying your arc dodgers straight at a squad of six missile-equipped Z95's, then just as you would in X-Wing the PC game, you deserve everything you get. They're called arc-dodgers for a reason, you know!

I still think the "if it hits cancel all defense dice" is op. You could taking out a falcon in 1 turn with 2 awings with proton rockets. I think a better solution is to not have to spend the TL only require that you have a target lock that way you can reroll bad rolls.

Please bear in mind also that this suggestion is not saying "you take full damage from the attack", but "all defence dice results are cancelled". The attacker may cause two or three damage with the attack, the defender rolls all blanks... and suffers two or three damage. No more.

The same goes for Blount. His ordnance "always hits". OK, great, so one pilot gets one missile attack that always hits. Great. Unless he also manages to roll four+ hits with his attack dice, it's not going to be that game-breaking.

There are only a couple of instances where this might become ridiculous - mainly with Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets, i.e. cards that were in of themselves attempts to fix the problems with ordnance.

Still concerned? Errata the wording to read:

"When you are required to spend a Target Lock to make an ordnance attack, if this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

Suddenly Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets are no longer a problem.

Don't homing missiles still require you to spend a target lock?

Simple ordnance fix, suggested and discussed elsewhere:

"If this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

You're hit by a missile/torpedo, you take ALL damage rolled.

As far as I know, I am the originator of the idea (If I'm wrong, please correct me, I want to give credit where due). I was madly in love with the idea for a long while. I still want to love it.

But someone pointed out to me that this idea gives concussion missiles a 75% chance of 1 shotting Fel. That's probably gone down a bit with Autothrusters, but it's still way imbalanced.

Fluff-wise, it works perfectly. But from a gameplay perspective, it would be rather unfun to know that my awesome arcdodgers of doom would get evaporated by a squad of 6 Z-95s.

I posited the same idea a few months back- I am not claiming that I came up with it before you did, but what I am saying is that great minds tend to think alike.

The odds of 1-shotting Fel are a bit less than that. With concussion missiles you have a roughly 75% chance of getting 3 hits (without modifiers). A turtled up Fel (and as Fel, if someone with Concussion missiles has a TL on you, you better be dang sure you're turtled up, assuming you were unable to dodge their arc in the first place) is more than capable of dodging 3 hits- easily so if he is at range 3 with AutoThrusters. (EDIT: I just ran the math, and assuming I didn't make any mistakes, Fel with focus and evade has about an 80% chance of getting at least 3 evades, WITHOUT taking AutoThrusters into account. So yeah, there will be times when Fel could get one shot by a concussion missile, but most of the time he will be fine)

Simple ordnance fix, suggested and discussed elsewhere:

"If this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

You're hit by a missile/torpedo, you take ALL damage rolled.

That may almost make ordnance OP. Can you imagine Blount with any missile?

You'd alter the phrasing to "if any damage is uncancelled" to get around that one.

My most recent version of the idea is basically this (tweaked slightly to include TIE Pilot's wording, which I like):

Advanced Weaponry (or whatever)

modification

1 point

"When you resolve a [missile] or [torpedo] weapon attack, if there is any uncancelled damage, cancel all of the defender's dice.

Makes it so that Blount isn't overpowered, and makes it so that you can't combine it with Munitions Failsafe, so now you're back to the risky "one chance to hit or your out of luck" business.

I said 2 awings because I assumed people on this forum understood that you have 100 points to put into ships and 2 awings with prockets doesn't come out to 100 points. The awings would severely damage the falcon and the other ships in the squad would easily finish it off. Also that people here would be familiar with the fact that with 2 awings firing prockets and the falcon only having 1 dice to defend with that means the prockets will almost certainly get thru thereby making it impossible to mitigate any damage using the cancel defense dice rule. Whereas higher agility ships have a better chance of evading it thereby causing that cancel dice rule not to be as effective vs high agility targets. They would still be potent against high agility but be even more dangerous against low agility expensive ships.

2 A-wings with Prockets come in at 40 points minimum. The Cheapest (non-generic) falcon- Chewbacca- comes in at 42 points. Add to that the fact that both A-wings have to be at range 1, with focus tokens, and that they both have to survive Chewbacca's shots on them before they can fire back, and it doesn't sound too OP. Certainly no more OP than Fat Falcons are in the current Meta.

So yeah, while it is technically possible to take down a falcon with 2 A-wings under this proposed rule, it's not very likely. It's also technically possible for a Bandit to 1-shot Soontir all by himself, but how often do you see it happening?

One nice part of simply lowering agility is that the Falcon would roll zero dice against a missle/torpedo attack and C-3PO would not trigger.

The question remains, would lowering defender agility by 1 be broken? Would it be enough to make ordnance an attractive option?

I think that would be a better option overall. It would still allow high agility ships a better chance to survive instead of being 1 shotted. The cancel defense dice option just is too op across the board. Everyone here I'm sure knows how unreliable green dice are and so chances are your torpedoes or missiles will land at least 1 hit. Lowering agility by 1 is a better balance.

Remember that you would still have all the other baggage and problems associated with ordinance- their high cost, the difficulty in acquiring a TL and then getting a shot off, requiring you to spend the TL (for most ordinance) without getting any benefit from it, and if anything it would make ordinance even more swingy than it currently is.

Yes, it would definitely shake up the game, and make ordinance much scarier than it currently is, but is that really a bad thing?

Don't homing missiles still require you to spend a target lock?

No, they just require you to have one.

Edit: As an aside, I'll admit to being inordinatedly amused by how quickly this thread went from "let's make ordnance good!" to "please don't make me have to actually arc-dodge with my arc-dodgers".

Seriously, TIE/IN pilots. You've got one of the best dials in the game. You've got boost. You;ve got barrel roll. You've got modification slots (twice as many as any other ship in the game, in fact). You've got Autothrusters, Shield Upgrades, Hull Upgrades, Stealth Devices, 3 agility dice, some pretty cool pilot abilities and usually an Elite Talent slot as well. If - with all those options at your disposal - you find yourself one shotted by a Z-95 with Concussion Missiles, well, to put it frankly, you deserve it.

I think if you could fire them out of arc they'd be fine. People are happy with the hot-shot blaster, missiles and torps tend to have a bit more bite but require an action to launch and cost a little more. Seems like an easy, fluffy-ish nudge to secondaries that gives them a bit more versatility and makes them easier to use

I do not recall what ordnance requires a target lock but I could picture ordnance tracking even target behind you. That would most definitely shake up the game.

But is that enough for a one-shot weapon to be worth taking over and HLC?

For ships that have the option for a HLC, maybe not. But t makes them at least different to a HLC in another way so they have a bit more to offer. Plus, don't forget the added benefits of thinks like ion torps and flachette torps. It'd certainly give me a reason to take them, and missiles or torps on a ps 10+ pilot would be a HUGE phantom deterrent.

Always liked that one but it makes ordnance better against agile ships...

It does, but only if you actually hit them first. Which is kind of fluffy in and of itself - a TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor which actually gets hit by a torpedo or missile will go boom. No ifs or buts or maybes.

Hitting said TIE Fighter or TIE Interceptor is easier said than done, however; you still have to get them in arc, for a start. Then you have to hit with four dice, usually with very few ways to modify them if you're spending target lock to fire them (Homing Missiles might be a little OP, especially on PtL A-Wings, I'll grant that much).

But of course, if your expensive arc-dodger is REALLY worried about being one-shotted by a missile, then there's always Expert Handling...

....and of course, ordnance in numers will cause big damage to large or low agility ships too, just as intended. They'll undoubtedly get hit, and they won't be able to avoid the damage.

As far as I know, I am the originator of the idea (If I'm wrong, please correct me, I want to give credit where due). I was madly in love with the idea for a long while. I still want to love it.

Fluff-wise, it works perfectly. But from a gameplay perspective, it would be rather unfun to know that my awesome arcdodgers of doom would get evaporated by a squad of 6 Z-95s.

As far as I know,. you are. Not trying to claim credit, just like the idea.

And if you're flying your arc dodgers straight at a squad of six missile-equipped Z95's, then just as you would in X-Wing the PC game, you deserve everything you get. They're called arc-dodgers for a reason, you know!

I still think the "if it hits cancel all defense dice" is op. You could taking out a falcon in 1 turn with 2 awings with proton rockets. I think a better solution is to not have to spend the TL only require that you have a target lock that way you can reroll bad rolls.

Please bear in mind also that this suggestion is not saying "you take full damage from the attack", but "all defence dice results are cancelled". The attacker may cause two or three damage with the attack, the defender rolls all blanks... and suffers two or three damage. No more.

The same goes for Blount. His ordnance "always hits". OK, great, so one pilot gets one missile attack that always hits. Great. Unless he also manages to roll four+ hits with his attack dice, it's not going to be that game-breaking.

There are only a couple of instances where this might become ridiculous - mainly with Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets, i.e. cards that were in of themselves attempts to fix the problems with ordnance.

Still concerned? Errata the wording to read:

"When you are required to spend a Target Lock to make an ordnance attack, if this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

Suddenly Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets are no longer a problem.

Good points, and good suggestion. Combine it with mine and the one posited by TIE pilot and I think we've got a good thing going.

Advanced Weaponry (or whatever)

modification

1 point

"When you resolve a secondary weapon attack that requires you to spend a Target Lock token, if there is any uncancelled damage, cancel all of the defender's dice."

I think if you could fire them out of arc they'd be fine. People are happy with the hot-shot blaster, missiles and torps tend to have a bit more bite but require an action to launch and cost a little more. Seems like an easy, fluffy-ish nudge to secondaries that gives them a bit more versatility and makes them easier to use

I do not recall what ordnance requires a target lock but I could picture ordnance tracking even target behind you. That would most definitely shake up the game.

FFG already did it. See Nera Daniels. And I don't think anyone would say she shook up the game very much.

Don't homing missiles still require you to spend a target lock?

They require you to HAVE a TL, but don't require you to spend it. Ion Pulse Missiles are the same. EDIT: Ninja'd

I said 2 awings because I assumed people on this forum understood that you have 100 points to put into ships and 2 awings with prockets doesn't come out to 100 points.

That doesn't even make sense. That's words to the effect of "2 A-wings is actually 5 A-wings because dogfight point limit is 100 therefore you should assume when I say 2 I mean 5."

You said the exact words "You could taking out a falcon in 1 turn with 2 awings." No sane individual is going to assume from that that you mean more than three A-wings.

I can change my original post to "practically take out a falcon in 1 turn by themselves" if you'd like.

It would be left on 3 hit points, 25% of its total health, assuming both proton rockets hit for 5. The chance of ten focused dice all hitting is 5%.

A single one of those shots against a phantom would obliterate it in one hit if it rolled four evades, and the chance of five focused dice all hitting is just under 24%. That's not factoring in the fact that you only need 4 hits to kill a phantom and it's not certain to roll four evades. Give the phantom the benefit of the doubt, give it a focus token on its defence. It's got a roughly 40% chance of being oneshot. The Falcon? Zero.

It's got 13 hit points. You'd need at least 3 prockets to kill it. I'm not going to do the maths for it, but 13 hits off 15 focused dice?

Assuming no Minor Explosion or Direct Hit,

Two prockets, no chance of killing it. 5% chance of knocking it down to 3 hit points. You'll probably knock out about half its health, but that's not "practically killing it."

Three prockets, 15 focused dice, 24% chance of 13 hits.

Four prockets, 20 focused dice, 90% chance of 13 hits.

But four prockets on A-wings will cost you eighty points. Three prockets costs you sixty, which is about the same as the Falcon you're trying to kill.

What do people think of having the cancel all defence results on a hit rule combined with a double your agility rule?

Could also allow Evade tokens to cancel even if it does hit.

Let's face it, enough A-Wings with Prockets can nail a Falcon (or Decimator, for that matter) with or without these suggestions, so that entire line of reasoning is pretty much irrelevant to the topic. Of course, those A-Wings need to get into range one of their target to fire them. Without bumping, and without being destroyed first.

What do people think of having the cancel all defence results on a hit rule combined with a double your agility rule?

I think that pretty much negates the point of the idea in the first place. Large ships can already use Counter Measures to that effect if they're that worried.

Could also allow Evade tokens to cancel even if it does hit.

That's perfectly fine, though. In fact, that just gives arc dodgers a back up option. Roll evade dice - use evade token if the results are enough to completely avoid the attack, if they're not, use it to remove one of the rolled hits. Simples.

Simple ordnance fix, suggested and discussed elsewhere:

"If this attack hits, cancel all defence dice results".

You're hit by a missile/torpedo, you take ALL damage rolled.

That may almost make ordnance OP. Can you imagine Blount with any missile? He'd be one of the best pilots in the game.

Same would carry to Ten Numb. It's not hard to manipulate things to get him a guaranteed critical hit that can't be cancelled, allowing him to deal full damage. But, as a pilot who starts at 31 points before you start tacking Ordinance onto him, I'm not sure how OP this would make him.

You can already give Ten his near guaranteed uncancellable crit by giving him a Mangler Cannon.

They require you to HAVE a TL, but don't require you to spend it. Ion Pulse Missiles are the same. EDIT: Ninja'd

You are required to spend a target lock to fire your ordinance, unless that was FAQ'ed

pg 9:

"Certain abilities may also allow a targeted ship to remove a target lock. Some secondary weapons, such as proton torpedoes, can only be used if the ship spends a target lock on the targeted ship (see “Secondary Weapons” on page 19)"

You have to spend it, it's written on the card. Only Homing Missiles and Proton Rockets don't require their requisite tokens to be spent.

I'm leaning towards liking the full damage on a hit version of ordnance again, although I think it'd work better if you got a bonus agility die against it so that 2 dicers aren't completely screwed and three dicers have a decent dodge chance.

That, and allow Evade tokens to cancel a hit but not Reinforce tokens.

This fix, what problem would, hmm? Hmmmmmm.

You can already give Ten his near guaranteed uncancellable crit by giving him a Mangler Cannon.

Which is only 3 dice and only has one guaranteed hit result. Torpedoes would be 4 dice (though requiring him to expend an action, and generally unmodified), and Rebels have ways to pump that to 5 or 6.

You can already give Ten his near guaranteed uncancellable crit by giving him a Mangler Cannon.

Which is only 3 dice and only has one guaranteed hit result. Torpedoes would be 4 dice (though requiring him to expend an action, and generally unmodified), and Rebels have ways to pump that to 5 or 6.

The fix could be worded thusly:

"When resolving a secondary weapon attack that requires you to spend a Target Lock token, if the number of hit+crit icons is greater than the number of evade icons, cancel all the defender's dice."

That would prevent shenanigans from both Ten Numb and Lt. Blount.

I got an idea. Lets make a Tie Bomber cost 50 points That will make torpedoes better better. Lets also make Chardan refit -5 points instead of -2 points to increase the value of missiles as well.

Oh you mean the defender not the Tie Defender.

Okay I can see your point.