Hmm. So it seems with Takedown, although it is worded really weirdly.

You can certainly Feint with Grapple, however. The Grapple Action listed under Attack Actions is the action you take once you are in a Grapple. Grapple itself is something you can choose to do instead of dealing damage with an unarmed attack. So, you're still in pretty rough waters: succeed on an opposed WS check, then make an unarmed attack againt an armed opponent (-20 WS), which cannot be dodged or parried if the Feint suceeded. Then, if they have a reaction left, they can make an Agility test to avoid it. You're not always much worse off if the Feint fails, because they may use their Reaction trying to dodge or parry the unarmed attack. On the other hand, the test to avoid Grapple is a pure Agility test, so they don't get their dodge bonus if they are forced to use it. Also, their extra reactions from Step Aside and Wall of Steel can't be used to escape a landed Grapple hit, so there's that.

Disarm is a fun option, and a pretty fair contest all around.

Or, if they disengaged and moved under charge range, they just so happened to be PBR for a full SA shotty blast, which their dodge should bring down into the survivable range. Another option is for the enemy to unload two FA autopistols PBR at them, which is pretty similar: lots of small bullets, damage mitigated by dodging. Or just an autogun. Pure melee NPCs such as Khornites can be given fun bonuses to make up for their lack of ranged inclinations, since normal melee characters have at least enough BS to make it a bad idea to let them have a full action at PBR.

Feel free to set up terrain which allows an NPC to Manouver the Assassin into a position in which his back is to the wall and the only way out is through the melee guy.

If Parry from Wall of Steel is part of the problem, enemies are more than welcome to Fast, or better yet, Flexible, weapons. There are lots of weapons which are both Flexible and Shocking, so once his Dodge reactions are up, those could be nasty. Snare and Toxic weapons are also an option, each of which has side effects once a hit lands which are harder to negate than simply making a dodge test. Smoke weapons, likewise, throw down a cloud which subjects anyone inside it to Suffocation, which is a Toughness test.

It's tricky to pull off, especially if the Hypothetical Assassin has high perception, but if an opponent who he is not aware of pulls off a successful Silent Move check on him, he may take any attack as if it were a Feint (from the Silent Move entry in the IH). The Blind Grenade throws down smoke which also blinds even sensors from photo visors. For a wider, longer-lasting variant, there is the Choke Gas grenade. The Stun grenade forces a Toughness test from anyone in its blast of 3 to avoid being outright stunned for 1d5 rounds.

I suppose if he blindly charges in, you can punish him by having the opponent throw down a Hallucinogen Grenade within 10 meters of him. Then he has to make a -10 Toughness test or have a 50% of tripping his way through the next 1d10 rounds.

And, if all else fails, Sorcery and Psyker Powers aren't dodgeable.

Hmm, despite all this, it would be nice if there was a weapon which imposes penalties on dodge the way some do on melee. Also, I still think that wearing heavy armor and carrying heavy weapons should come with a dodge penalty, the way heavy armor now imposes a concealment/silent move penalty.

* Slightly bemused by fact that a thread on bulging biceps has been derailed into a discussion on assassins super combat powers*

There was an earlier argument somehere on this thread about the fact that one random shot shouldnt be able to takedown a player. If i read the argument right this was referring to PBR shotguns.. I think that this doesnt pan out because whilst you have shotguns for close range lethality, sniper weapons are the longer range version (multiple hits VS one single powerful hit) of the same argument and nobody seems to have a problem with them.

And as for assassins, thier weakness (as far as our group has experienced) is that whilst they can dodge/parry/sneak like a b***ard, they are fairly puny when they do inevitably take a hit and go down very quickly compared to a guardsman or arbites.

And i think the cheesiest class is the techpriest. Total monopoly on technology, scary-ass weapons and some of the coolest talents around...

S.K.

FYI: Nothing in the rules for Disengaging nor the Maneuver action rules say that a Maneuver action disengages characters from melee. Therefore, a maneuver action does not end melee, despite separating the combatants.

I don't have the rulebook in front of me, but from memory there are 3 ways to voluntarily end melee:

1) Disengage full action.

2) Move away but suffer free attacks.

3) Successful acrobatics half action.

You could Maneuver away as a half action, and then move away as the other half action to break melee ... and thus avoid the free attacks because you are out of melee range. However, you can't maneuver and then shoot a non-pistol weapon and cannot get a PB bonus because technically you're still in melee.

dvang said:

Personally im going to go with my houserulin on this, until an errata comes out.

FFG REALLY need to make an official distinction between which range is considered to be melee range, and which range is considered to be PBR. The topic has brought up so many questions and confusions, it really needs an errata...

I went ahead and sent the matter in as a Rules Question, here's the reply (from Ross Watson actually!):

Hello there!

When two characters are adjacent to each other, they are considered to be "engaged in melee." The term "adjacent" is one that is adjudicated by the GM, based on the relative size and reach of the combatants. In most cases (assuming that both combatants are human-sized and are wielding normal-sized weapons), "adjacent" means that both characters would be within half a meter of each other, or in adjacent squares on a grid map. Other circumstances may apply, such as various status conditions (i.e., Stunned), or whether the attacker or defender are prone, that may change whether the character is engaged or not.

So according to this response (if we assume it is a normal combat with normal circumstances) you could very well break off from melee with a manouvre half-action since it moves you at least a metre away from your opponent (two metres if you forgo the "advance" option and choose to take a further step back instead).

So, it turns out I was wrong about how Grapple works. It's a WS to hit, and if you suceed at the test, then they get to spend a reaction to make an Agility test. This means a) they don't get their Dodge bonus, and b) they can't Parry or Step Aside. Also, creatures with Natural Weapons use them as their Unarmed Attack. This means that they take no penalty to hit an armed opponent with grapple. It also means that their do their full damage during the Grapple Action. And since the Grapple Action hits on an opposed Strength test, their only hope for escape is likely to be Contorionist, which at least means they've spent a turn helpless in a Grapple. Also, one can Grapple on a Charge action for a bonus to hit.

Since Street Fighting includes knives, I'd be evil and let them be used for Grapple and the Grapple Action as well. It would match the way knives are used in real life (very close quarters fighting).

Anyhow, Grapple seems to be the GM's best counter to an Assassin. Enjoy!

Darth Smeg said:

That's pretty much bs.

Feinting specifies that the action that immediately follows has to be a standard attack or you lose the advantage. I remember there may have been something in the errata about not being able to take 2 attacks actions, but I couldn't find it now. In any case it's not a far stretch to allow feint+attack as it is probably what was intended anyway. I don't really see a problem with knockdown+attack either, seeing as how risky that is.

BS? As in Ballistic Skill or Bull S#it?

I can see I made a typo that may change my meaning. The second sentence should read "Also, IF you must take ..."

My point was that my understanding is that according to the RAW you cannot make a Feint followed up by a Knock/Take Down attack in order to prevent your opponent from dodging or parrying.

Am I mistaken?

Darth Smeg said:

That is my understanding as well.

Feint is pretty explicit in stating that "anything other than a Standard Attack" will lose the benefits of the Feint action.

I'm surprised how a simple question about the -30 penalty for using heavy weapons unbraced becomes... this. Was there always a huge debate about heavy weapons and shotguns and disengaging that I just opened up a can of worms?

And what is RAW? Retreat Attack What? Im sure you mean something about the rules, but I cant think of what that could stand for right now.

Well anyways... 2 more pages to read. eh...

Rules As Written

Darth Smeg said:

Ah you seemed to indicate that you couldn't do another standard attack after using feint. I agree that feint only works with standard attack, not knockdown etc.

Since a successful Feint makes the following standard attack undodgeable and uparry-able it works well enough. my groups assassin looked pretty dumb when the Ork Grot-herder feinted and them whacked him with his choppa, dealing whole 13 (9+4) points of damage.

btt: Bulging Biceps only allows you to fire unbraced heavy weapons in Semi- and full automatic fire. Considering the usual modifiers you still suffer a 10 point penalty, but with a few upgrades or other bonuses (like half range) you can still lay down a hail of bullets to force the enemy down/back. It may not be satisfiying to still have that -30 for firing unbraced, but that can easily be compensated. So no need to cry over a little spilled milk.

Is unbraced supressing fire an option with bulging biceps ?

You aren't planning to hit anything, just make them keep their heads down. And if you have one of your allies in the killzone*, the penalties help you because you can't get as many hits, meaning less chance to hit your ally.

*Probably someone with resistance or immunity to pinning.

Well, I'd say the whole point of BB is to be able have the necessary flexibility to be able to aim or close to short/close range with the weapon, so the penalties and bonuses roughly cancel out.