For blazing Fist's combo ability where it gets multiple 2 and the multiple copies get the punch keyword, after the multiple copies resolve do they still keep the punch keyword?

Just going to let you know that I asked this quesiton about 4 days ago, and got not one response. This might be an issue no one wants to touch. The mechanic is well intentioned, but mix it in with the way that attacks resolve, it does not actually work.

Example: Double Face Kick

Play DFK after a Kick (for combo)

Combo Enhance (This gives the attack Multiple 1, and all multiples get Throw)

*Issue 1*

Multiple the attack.

Block Step-Damage Step-Attack Resolves

*Issue 2*

Ok, Issue 1: When an ability gives a keyword or enhance to multiple copies of itself, do the multiples have to exist at that time, or is it inherited when the multiples are created. What if an attack is multipled, then the E is used to give the multiple copies the keyword, then the attack is given another Multiple 1(ie Tira)? Would the new multiple get the keyword? If this is not the case, how does DFK work? The effect of giving the multiples Throw would never happen, as the ability gives it multiple at the same time, not allowing any time to multiple.

Issue 2: When an attack resolves, all Enhance abilites end. By my reading, this includes all the abilites that grant keywords to multiples. If that is the case, why even have the ability. If the abilites persist, for how long? Till the end of turn? Till the attack resolves? Why? Would you be able to use the Keywords for Combos? Ex: Konvict Kick->DFK->Multiple->Cobra Twist. Does Twist get to Combo E?

Good Luck.

-Tinman

Well, when I wanted to put Autumn's Kiss in my Astrid deck to multiple out my weapons, I was told that the multiples created don't keep the weapon keyword by ShadowDragon, maybe that's what we could put here?

After an attack resolved they dont keep given keywords from what i understand becuase you cant use a combo enhance if you have given an attack a keyword since its already gone when you play your next attack

The basic rules for multiples is that they have a blank text box. They have the same Zone, Speed, and Damage as the printed copy, but no text, keywords, etc. What we have in this situation is the original copy trying to pass on a keyword or ability to the blank copies. The problem from this arises when you look at the baisc rule that says when an attack resolves, all enhance effects also resolve and reset, unless they say something like 'until the end of the turn.' When these two things interact, you get a big mess. The abilities and keyword given to the multiples are given by an E, for the most part. Each copy resolves separately, including the original, meaning that after the original resolves, the inherited abilities would, by certain logic, disappear. This is really problematic when you look at attacks like Double Face Kick, whos major draw is the ability to produce 2 Throws.

-Tinman

How about something like being added to the AGR:

If an enhance changes an attack other then the one that is currently resolving, the effect persists until the end of turn, unless it specifies otherwise.

This would work with Blazing fist, and Fury of the ancients, Menuette Dance, etc.

Finally found the relevant text:

2.9.2.6 Effects of Enhances continue until the attack has fully resolved unless
otherwise specified.

And, as there is not a length specified, the effect would end before the multiples began to resolve.

-Tinman

Tinman said:

But, does "the attack" refer to the attack that GAVE the enhance or the attack that GOT the enhance? I think the latter makes more sense, considering that the rule was written in the context of most Es either being granted by a foundation or by an attack onto itself.

If you read it as the card that GOT the enhance the effect of the Enhance wouldn't end until the last of the multiples fully resolves.

Edit: I would also assume that the enhance wouldn't even need to stay active as the actual effect is GIVING the text to the card, not maintaing the text on the card. Once it's given it's given. This interpretation might be completely wrong though.

In all other instances of the term, 'effect of the enhance' references 'an attack', meaning the current one. There really is no precedance for having an effect on an attack, which is not the current attack, be applied during a separate Enhance step, then finish when the effected attack resolves.

-Tinman

Technically multiple copies are part of the same form as their original attack, but theoretically yes the attack resolves, and then you move on to the next, which means reversals can be played after blocking any of them. Rather than hash this out we need to wait for an official rules arbiter to either let us know, or try and get in touch with Hata (which may be why he havnt got a reply), and wait and see.

I'm pretty sure the "the multiple copies get the Punch keyword" is more for it's 2nd E, then the multiples actually become punches for when they resolve.

Whether that is the intention or not, it is important to figure out the duration. I know Steve Fox is waiting with baited breath.

-Tinman

If an enhance on an attack grants an enhance / modification to multiple copies, that bonus/enhance/modification will last until the multiple copy resolves.

Additionally effects like Spinning Demon can be played before or after a multiple is generated, as it creates a continuous effect.

This will be clarified in the next AGR revision.