Question: I build a space mine in a system with a trade station, like Tsion, and then leave it empty. The player next to me flies a Destroyer into the system, but is destroyed by the space mine. Did I lose the trade station?
Trade Stations and Mines
My gut would've said no, but after reading the rules more carefully, I'd say yes, you do lose the Trade Station.
Shattered Empire rules, p.7 (emphasis mine)
Trade Stations may never be invaded. Instead,
whenever
a player has ships in a system in which no other
player’s ships are present, he immediately places his
Control Marker on the station (and gains the corresponding
planet card in its exhausted state).
The
Control Marker stays on the station until another player
becomes the only player with ships in the system
(at which point the other player places his Control
Marker on the system and gains the corresponding
planet card in its exhausted state). Control Markers
may also be removed from Trade Stations by certain
abilities and cards.
Order of Tactical action:
1) Activate System
2)Movement into system
3) PDS fire
4) Space Mines
Since the Destroyer moves into the system first, and after that is blown up, I'd argue that the ship is IN THE SYSTEM for a very short period of time, but enough to establish control of the Trade Station. Had there been even 1 opposing ship in the system, control would not have changed.
I agree with Magic Octopus. The Mines are resolved after the movement is done. However, I should point out that it's been clarified in the past that Space Mines being a separate "step" is a bit misleading, as Mines trigger after ANY movement, not just during an activation sequence. That being said, the ships do still exist (even if "briefly") in the system before the mines trigger, and thus the Trade Station would switch hands.
Just playing devil's advocate here...but it seems to me that space mines are treated as ships that only participate in one round of combat, with the mine owner being the defending player.
As the destroyer "battles" the space mine and both are destroyed...no new player has sole occupancy of the territory and thus possesion would not change. This seems to be supported by the example given with the Muaat War Sun taking control AFTER combat.
Also, it later says in the trade station rules that, "aside from the above exceptions, trade stations are still considered planets..." and planets do not change possesion if the invading force is completely destroyed (see invasion combat rules).
If I'm wrong, would Saar space docks also be destroyed if a ship moved into the system and were destroyed by mines or PDS fire? That would make the Saar even more sucky than they appear to be.
Johnhagop said:
Just playing devil's advocate here...but it seems to me that space mines are treated as ships that only participate in one round of combat, with the mine owner being the defending player.
As the destroyer "battles" the space mine and both are destroyed...no new player has sole occupancy of the territory and thus possesion would not change. This seems to be supported by the example given with the Muaat War Sun taking control AFTER combat.
Also, it later says in the trade station rules that, "aside from the above exceptions, trade stations are still considered planets..." and planets do not change possesion if the invading force is completely destroyed (see invasion combat rules).
If I'm wrong, would Saar space docks also be destroyed if a ship moved into the system and were destroyed by mines or PDS fire? That would make the Saar even more sucky than they appear to be.
Well, with due respect, Space Mines are most definitely NOT considered ships, nor is their resolution considered part of Space Combat (or any kind of combat). Although the mines are "owned" by a player, they do not control space, and thus their presence does not cause things to be contested. It is possible, though unusual, for Space Mines to be in a system, and an enemy ship to also exist there (This would happen if a player has multiple Space Mines counters in the system, and another player moves ships in. The movement would only trigger one set of Mines to fire, leaving the other to trigger at a later time). There is nothing in the rules to suggest the Space Mines are something that would keep the player with ships from controlling the system - mines do not control anything. (Note that the FAQ does have an entry that specifically states that Space Mines are NOT "units", and cannot be scuttled; as such, they don't count for units for anything else, either).
Yes, this could mean the same thing for Saar Space Docks, too. If an enemy ship moves in, and all there is for Saar is a Space Dock, it will die, mines or no mines. (However, any Saar player who leaves their Space Dock unguarded like that deserves to lose their Dock, in my opinion).
sigmazero13 said:
Note that the FAQ does have an entry that specifically states that Space Mines are NOT "units", and cannot be scuttled; as such, they don't count for units for anything else, either.
Yep, you're right. Just saw this in the FAQ after I posted.
It's really a non-issue anyway? I mean, most trade stations will be exausted by the refresh ability in the status phase, so it would be no loss to the owning player until the end of the round. Certainly by then he/she'd have the chance to respond as there's no unit in the space to defend the trade station. It would just cost the original player an action.
Hypothetically, what if the units were moving through instead of stopping in the system? Obviously, the mines wouldn't fire, but PDS's would.
Johnhagop said:
It's really a non-issue anyway? I mean, most trade stations will be exausted by the refresh ability in the status phase, so it would be no loss to the owning player until the end of the round.
I don't know if I agree with this. I rarely exhaust them during the status phase unless I think there's a chance I MIGHT lose it, as spending it during a build is the same net effect (2 TGs = 2 Resources for building), but in the meantime you get the extra 2 influence for votes. Sometimes, 2 votes can make a difference between winning and losing.
If I feel that the station is in jeopardy, I'll exhaust it during the Refresh phase; or if I need actual Trade Goods for something (like a bribe or an objective). I try not to store too many TG's otherwise, though, as there are many effects that can take them away. But unless I have a good reason, I leave it refreshed to keep the influence intact.
Johnhagop said:
Hypothetically, what if the units were moving through instead of stopping in the system? Obviously, the mines wouldn't fire, but PDS's would.
PDS cannot fire at ships moving "through" a system. PDS can only fire into the ACTIVATED system during a Tactical or Transfer action, and since the pass-through system was not activated for the action, PDS cannot fire into it.
As for passing through to take Trade Stations, though, this was asked of Corey (the designer) and while I guess it didn't make it into the FAQ (though it should), the ruling was, if I recall, that the claiming of trade stations only happens if the ships STOP there. I'll see if I can track that ruling down, but alas, it was in the old forums and may be gone. Maybe I'll ask Corey again just to confirm.
I hope this helps
Great points!
Interesting about the moving through, though. The fact that there's a difference between moving through a system vs. stopping in a system and getting instantly destroyed certainly makes control of a trade station non-intuitive, doesn't it?
I won't argue that