So... my players are running this, and finally reached the mine entrance.

EV told them they had been attacked by pirates, and that the pirates had headed into the mine.

They elected to follow the pirates and rescue the miners.

They had two ideas.

Pirates.

Rogue Droids.

Fooled them hard! MUWAAHAHAH

However, it threw up an issue.... Ambushing people.

They arrived at the Way Station in the mine, Initiative was rolled, the miners had the last two slots, the players the first 4.

The miners were meant to be able to fire a shot as they entered, but as the Initiative system works, they would never be able to do anything until all the PCs were in the room.

How do you deal with situations like this?

(I had to break the rules as written to get the miners the warning shot... otherwise the players could have slaughtered the miners before they get a chance to do anything else - this break in the RAW didnt go down well with my players).

Suggestions?

Players on hold don't have initiative slots. They go when they want to if they're coming from surprise.

Yeah, ambushing is definitely a weak point in this system. It's been suggested to do anything from giving them a 'free' surprise round before the battle starts or giving them boosts for the ambush to having a separate cool vs. vigilance check to determine die pools prior to rolling initiative.

It's worth noting at this point that rounds are supposed to be 30 seconds to a minute long, so I'll often describe enemies firing a few brief and useless snap shots, even if they don't get an actual 'turn' in the round.

I really love this adventure. Ran it with my players and now they have a grudge against EV, and R9 (they escaped). one of the players is a Marxist gunslinger Twi'lek, so the Droid revolution really was great irony

But yea, the whole idea was the miners only shoot at droids, once they see humans they are willing to talk. for a first round I would have given the miners two defense for a very secure defense. Even might give the players a perception check against two purple to see them.

In the end, I had them fire a warning shot (as per the book), between the first players Maneouvre (Getting through the door) and taking his action.

It seemed the most cinematic at the time.

I don't think I'd have trouble allowing a free shot. It's not RAW, but if it suits the story situation, why not?

I don't think I'd have trouble allowing a free shot. It's not RAW, but if it suits the story situation, why not?

That was my thinking.

It seemed stupid, that a group inside a building, who KNOW the enemy is outside, and is READY to fire on those entering.... would be forced to wait for 4 enemies to enter, and shoot at them, before a shot was returned.

So I think in future i would allow a 'free' action when appropriate with the narrative. Applied to the PCs as well.

I haven't tried it yet, but when ever it is more important to be aware of your surroundings than keeping a clear head I call for a Vigilance check instead of a initiative check. Now this is basically part of the rules already, but where this makes a difference is the difficulty of the Vigilance check is determined by how hard it is to notice whatever it is they need to spot, anything from Simple to Impossible. Again, part of the rules, but in the case of an ambush you are comparing this potentially challenging Vigilance check against the attacker's Initiative check which is likely just a Simple Cool check. This has the advantage of making it a single roll instead of one to spot then one for initiative, and it makes it possible for the attacker to really get a leg up on their target.

For example, the attackers are setting up an ambush in a wooded ravine with a creek running down the middle. The forest is too dense to traverse so it is likely the target will be funneled along the shallow creek. The attackers hide along the raised and uneven sides of the ravine making it a Hard check, darkness and cover from the dense foliage helps to conceal them along with the noise of the creek (+1 Setback die), the attackers entrench their position for better placement and concealment (+1 Setback). On the flip side, the targets are moving through hostile territory and are on the alert (+1 boost die).

Making it easier for the attackers, they are positioned with higher ground and they also have both sides of the ravine covered in a crossfire with little chance of striking each other (+1 Boost die), not to mention the creek is well lit with little foliage to block the sun and it is difficult to flee along the creek and even harder through the woods (+1 Boost).

So for Initiative the target will be making a Hard Vigilance check with +2 Setback and +1 Boost versus the attacker's Simple Cool check with +2 Boost. Given the advantageous position of the attackers it is likely they will win Initiative and have Advantage left over to spend. It is likely in the Targets' best interest to spend what little Advantage they have to shield themselves from the coming attack and that is assuming they wont be suffering from Disadvantage. Any Advantage that is not spent for determining Initiative can go towards a free maneuver or improving the character's next action.

I would say in this example (and note, I think I was being stingy in rewarding boost/setback to the attacker) that the Ambush was rewarding, was resolved with a single roll on each side, and largely within the scope of the rules.

EDIT: I should note if there is any significant element that might make it more difficult to maintain a cool head, I would increase the difficulty of a Cool check too, or if something hinders a character's ability to act in a meaningful way I would increase, upgrade, or apply Setback as appropriate whether Cool or Vigilance was being used.

Except Initiative checks dont have a difficulty associated with them.

RAW, do not roll any negative dice as standard.Its a Simple (No Purple) Check.

Page 198 CRB

Since everyone was rolling a Simple Check, all on Cool as the situation required (not that Vigilance would make a difference on the stats in use), the results would not have been different... 4PCs then the 2 NPCS.

(Unless you are suggesting adding difficulty to the Initiative roll.. which is an interesting idea, but coould throw up a whole pile of troubles that could be more easily fixed for the above issue.... but does bare thought)

Except Initiative checks dont have a difficulty associated with them.

RAW, do not roll any negative dice as standard.Its a Simple (No Purple) Check.

Page 198 CRB

Since everyone was rolling a Simple Check, all on Cool as the situation required (not that Vigilance would make a difference on the stats in use), the results would not have been different... 4PCs then the 2 NPCS.

(Unless you are suggesting adding difficulty to the Initiative roll.. which is an interesting idea, but coould throw up a whole pile of troubles that could be more easily fixed for the above issue.... but does bare thought)

It is a skill check just like any other. While the base difficulty may be simple, there is no reason that difficulty increases, upgrades, and environmental dice shouldn't be applied. It makes sense to me, and I have fiddled with the dice pools for initiative more than a few times. Seems to work.

Except Initiative checks dont have a difficulty associated with them.

RAW, do not roll any negative dice as standard.Its a Simple (No Purple) Check.

Page 198 CRB

True, but that is why I call it a Vigilance check, effectively I am replacing the target's Initiative check with an awareness check. It saves time by incorporating the roll for determining their awareness with that of their roll for determining Initiative. If you prefer you can keep them separate, roll Vigilance to see how surprised they are, then apply the resulting success/failure, advantage/disadvantage, and Triumph/Despair to the Initiative roll as you would normally. Its probably truer to the RAW, if less significant rewarding, and an extra step, and makes the idea of using the Vigilance skill for Initiative make less sense overall.

And like I said, I haven't tried it yet, its an order of operation I came up with after reading a few other discussions of Initiative, which skill to use, and surprise. But theoretically it seems an elegant solution to these oft repeated questions, and within RAI. I plan on running the same adventure module, so perhaps I'll have a chance to test it out.

It seemed stupid, that a group inside a building, who KNOW the enemy is outside, and is READY to fire on those entering.... would be forced to wait for 4 enemies to enter, and shoot at them, before a shot was returned.

Since everyone was rolling a Simple Check, all on Cool as the situation required (not that Vigilance would make a difference on the stats in use), the results would not have been different... 4PCs then the 2 NPCS.

Since you used Cool for everyone I'm thinking there is no surprise, the people inside the building saw them coming, but panicked or didn't expect them to act so fast, either way they were ineffective at hindering the PCs from entering the building (That is assuming nothing else stops them from entering the building, like a locked or barricaded door). Narrate that the characters are sprinting up and into the building, dashing from cover to cover, all while blaster fire is raining down around them, and shrapnel is whizzing over their head. Touches like this make it believable when the PCs act before a set of aware and prepared opponents.

The adventure itself layed out the Miners preparations.

The PCs decided to storm the place, and one entered first. It stood to reason the Miners would get a shot as soon as he entered the building.

The RAW suggests (given the initiative order results on the night), that all 4 PCs would make it into the building, and get a shot off, before the Miners, who were inside, and aware, and barricaded, AND pointing their weapons at the door, that they wouldnt be allowed to react before they got hammered.

It was very tempting to let the PCs annihilate the Miners, it would have been a nice twist on things certainly, but I felt it callous at the time, so elected to do what I did above.

The adventure itself layed out the Miners preparations.

The PCs decided to storm the place, and one entered first. It stood to reason the Miners would get a shot as soon as he entered the building.

The RAW suggests (given the initiative order results on the night), that all 4 PCs would make it into the building, and get a shot off, before the Miners, who were inside, and aware, and barricaded, AND pointing their weapons at the door, that they wouldnt be allowed to react before they got hammered.

It was very tempting to let the PCs annihilate the Miners, it would have been a nice twist on things certainly, but I felt it callous at the time, so elected to do what I did above.

Nothing wrong with how you ran it. You just asked for opinions at the end of the post about ambushes in general.

I know, I was wondering how others resolved this issue.

I am inclined to give NPCs and PCs, a free action 'At their discretion' if they are setting an ambush.

Its come up two or three times in the 6 months we have been playing, and its caused confusion and ... disagreement on each one. So I was wondering who had come up with a nice simple solution I could adopt... call it a house rule.

My group are VERY ingrained in a "These are the rules, this is what you use" mentality due to Warhammer and D&D and very "competitive" GMs and "rules lawyers" and I am doing my best to break this habit now some of problem players have left... what I did worked, but i wasnt sure if it was the best option...

I know, I was wondering how others resolved this issue.

I am inclined to give NPCs and PCs, a free action 'At their discretion' if they are setting an ambush.

Its come up two or three times in the 6 months we have been playing, and its caused confusion and ... disagreement on each one. So I was wondering who had come up with a nice simple solution I could adopt... call it a house rule.

My group are VERY ingrained in a "These are the rules, this is what you use" mentality due to Warhammer and D&D and very "competitive" GMs and "rules lawyers" and I am doing my best to break this habit now some of problem players have left... what I did worked, but i wasnt sure if it was the best option...

Try applying positive environmental dice, upgraded skill dice instead of difficulty for well planned ambushes. Not only does it fit RAW a bit more obviously than adding difficulty, it can help give them triumphs which can be used RAW as additional maneuvers before combat officially begins.

I have yet to see a player complain about getting a bonus die. Then when you use the same rule for NPCs you can reference back to that encounter.

This is what I use:

Initiating Combat

• If both parties are aware of each other, in combat range, and not hostile; the party initiating combat gains a blue die to initiative checks.
• If one party successfully performs an ambush (is aware of the incoming enemy, prepared and not detected prior to initiating combat) perform the following:
  • Roll an opposed Cool vs. Vigilance check.
    • Success grants a Blue to Initiative, with an additional blue per two additional successes
    • Two advantage may be spent to gain a free maneuver before combat. Unspent Advantages carry over to the Initiative check
    • Triumph may be spent for a top initiative slot, or for a free action (just action, not full round) before combat, or positively affect the battle.
    • Failure has no effect.
    • Three disadvantage may be spent to gain a setback die to the initiative check
    • Despair may be spent to lose your free maneuver in the first round, or negatively affect the battle.
  • The ambushing party gains one boost die to initiative (regardless of roll outcome)

It's by no means the end all solution, but it's one that might appeal to a rules based group. This is also based on my group's interpretation of "1 minute rounds" that would make it very difficult and potentially illogical for a character to get an "entire minute's worth of action" before anyone else reacts. (which is why we don't use surprise rounds). It also creates the situation where, against very vigilance characters, it's possible to flub an ambush is such a way as to make things more difficult.

As I noted above, I'll sometimes narrate actions occurring 'outside' of turns, in order to maintain the feeling of simultaneity.

Except Initiative checks dont have a difficulty associated with them.

RAW, do not roll any negative dice as standard.Its a Simple (No Purple) Check.

Page 198 CRB

Since everyone was rolling a Simple Check, all on Cool as the situation required (not that Vigilance would make a difference on the stats in use), the results would not have been different... 4PCs then the 2 NPCS.

(Unless you are suggesting adding difficulty to the Initiative roll.. which is an interesting idea, but coould throw up a whole pile of troubles that could be more easily fixed for the above issue.... but does bare thought)

It is a skill check just like any other. While the base difficulty may be simple, there is no reason that difficulty increases, upgrades, and environmental dice shouldn't be applied. It makes sense to me, and I have fiddled with the dice pools for initiative more than a few times. Seems to work.

I've seen increasing the initiative difficulty in published adventures. In the Arda adventure the PCs are on a timeline to do something. If they fall behind and don't complete the task with utmost urgency then they get setback dice on the initiative check from the fight that ensues. Giving boost, setback, or setting a difficulty is a great way to represent ambushes or one group being way more prepared or distracted than normal.

I don't think I'd have trouble allowing a free shot. It's not RAW, but if it suits the story situation, why not?

That was my thinking.

It seemed stupid, that a group inside a building, who KNOW the enemy is outside, and is READY to fire on those entering.... would be forced to wait for 4 enemies to enter, and shoot at them, before a shot was returned.

So I think in future i would allow a 'free' action when appropriate with the narrative. Applied to the PCs as well.

If a GM wanted to stick within RAW and wait for each initiative slot for each (N)PC to act, then it could be handled in the narrative. When the first PC rushes through the door, then describe it as the defenders starting to fire. Perhaps even give setback dice for actions to represent the PC trying trying to not get shot. When each round is a minute, there is a lot more that goes on than a simple move and shoot.

Also, just because the defenders know that someone is coming through that door doesn't mean they'll fire in instant the door flies open and the intruders barge in. Ever watch police/military videos from training sessions on entering a room? When the door flies open those guy are through and firing. The intruders are setting the pace of the combat while the defenders can only hope to react. In that instant it's hard to react as fast as those guys are pouring through the door. So, I feel that it can be reasonable and realistic for the initiative order to be followed as rolled.

It seemed the most cinematic at the time.

This line of logic is at the heart of this game. Make it feel like the movies, and everyone has a good time.