When browsing list juggler it becomes pretty clear that swarms have fallen far out of favor in the last several months. Even in the rare cases when you see them in tournaments, they rarely take top spots. This change has happened very quickly, because even in 2014 Worlds, which was crawling with Phantoms, a lot of TIE swarms and mini-swarms made it to the top brackets. I mean, dang, even Dallas Parker is running a two-ship build these days...

Former swarm players, why don't you run swarms anymore?

1. Too many high AGI ships out there these days.

2. MoV rules hurt swarm players in timed matches (especially vs. large ships).

3. 60 minute rounds don't give enough time to play carefully (i.e. playing strategically, placing lots of dials, etc.)

4. Arc dodgers like Phantoms and Autoceptors make swarms too difficult to pull off these days.

5. I'm bored of swarms.

6. Other reasons...?

EDIT: For the sake of this discussion I consider a swarm to be 6+ ships. Many of you have made the good point that 5 ship rebel builds are very popular, which is definitely true, but a squad with 3 or 4 Bs plays very differently than a swarm of 6 or 7 Zs or TIEs IMO, so that's kind of a different discussion.

For me number 1 hits it.

Against 2-3 AGI a tie fighter might hit, but you start on the 4-5s (you know, with modifiers) then your hit rate goes down, and losing TIE's or Z's start to hurt.

combined with high attack ships capable of one shotting a Z or a TIE like it ain't no thing, it means range 1 isn't safe for the TIE or Z either.

The TIE Advanced (higher level) is essentially a 3.5 attack ship due to ATC.

Bomber... I got nothing, i love bombers - can't find a use for it apart from literally bombing (bombs, charges, mines)

Handy chart of firepower 2 ships - including the HWK for completion as nothing else is FP1:

Z-95: Cheap missle carrier, auto stealth device remover - scum has illicits that make them kinda good. TL means Rebel ones are ok, good filler - Scum swarm would do ok.

Tie Fighter: Academies make amazing blockers to support something else, not enough firepower to seal the deal against hi agi, can be worn down by high firepower lists.

Tie Advanced: With AC they are ok, high agility foils them. With ATC they are great.

Tie Bomber: Good hull for tanking, same issues as TIE fighter in that 2 dice ain't enough, still if ordnance improves...

A-wing.. PR's, real high dodge.

Y-wing: Turrets, Warthog.

Syck: Heavy. also high dodge

YT2400: yeah you have a cannon and outrider on this, do not pretend otherwise.

1300 ORS: Cheap tank and crew effects.

HWK: turret.

This is not to say i still don't use swarms. But my swarms are different. Character swarms and black squadron swarms are what I use rather than academy myself - the latter typically with ruthless, and usually on missions involving enemy huge ships.

Note: I usually don't play tourney standard unless in or practicing for a tourny, i play campaign missions - as such there is no game time limit. In this and my own campaign rules - The lowly TIE Fighter is a good cheap resource BUT given each pilot is a person and I am very casualty conscious I seldom use swarm tactics, preferring mid range to elite pilots.

I see swarms dropping off as a result of time constraints. I tried to run a swarm and did not finish a match. And I was not slow playing. But when you start rolling with 7 ships a game. There is almost no way to finish in time. So many of the swarm guys would only get partial points for vicotry.

MoV and the proliferation of tough, high-agility ships.

I lost one match to an IG-2000 with 1 hull point left, so that match on MoV was 100-50, when the match was actually much, much closer to 100-100. I really think you should get partial credit for hull damage to large ships.

Is there a "swift decline" going on? I'd love to throw in my rationalizations for why that might be into the discussion, as there are identifiable advantages and disadvantages in flying with swarms that may deter players.

But is it even happening?

List Juggler says, when filtering for store championships, that use by ship count numbers are:

14.13% for tie fighters

10.9% for b-wings

12.42% for rebel z-95s

When looking at their representation in the elimination rounds only, the numbers are:

13.76% for tie fighters

12.17% for b-wings

15.66% for rebel z-95s

In elimination rounds, 41.59% of ships reaching the table are one of 3 most swarmy/jousty ships available in-game.

Glancing briefly at the 2015 winners tab, nearly all the lists that are not 2-ship lists I am seeing at a glance include multiples of either z-95s, b-wings, or tie fighters (there are a few off-color swarms out there, like a 6 a-wing swarm and an alpha squadron, but maybe they are outliers).

I think swarms and miniswarms are getting plenty of representation, but I think the pure swarms have threats that now have the tools to better exploit a swarm's weaknesses.

Too tedious for competitive, timed play.

I think you're right about the mini-swarms. I didn't see any TIE fighter only lists or Z-95 only lists while I was at two different store championships, but I saw lots of people running 3 or 4 TIEs and Z-95s in conjunction with other ships.

I think you're right about the mini-swarms. I didn't see any TIE fighter only lists or Z-95 only lists while I was at two different store championships, but I saw lots of people running 3 or 4 TIEs and Z-95s in conjunction with other ships.

That's how I most often run them, it's almost formulaic - something expensive/scary + academy goons.

TallTonyB had a swarmy list that included a gold-plated Howlrunner TIE. I still covet that TIE. Such a cool paint job.

I always consider a swarm as 6-7 ships. I see 3-4 tie/z-95's with a big ship or named fighters. So mini swarms are still there, just not the big swarms that used to be popular.

Not to mention the increased critical dealing options. It's not fun dodging all the hits and receiving a crit afterwards.

I've briefly considered custom painted TIE's but ultimately as one Stormtrooper said: That's definitely against regulation.

Still, I have 2 Decimators, the Retribution and a currently unnamed. Maybe I should paint parts red...

They may start to creep back in with the Phantom rule change. The Phantom won't be the boogey man it once was and it might get less popular. Its still a very tough matchup for a swarm though. It only got marginally easier.

ATs hurt 2 attack ships quite a bit. They essentially become ineffective at the range 3 band. You may get the odd hit in, but its very rare. Good luck closing to range 1 where your most likely to hit a 3 agility ship. Range 1 isn't that safe when they are throwing 4 dice at you.

OP:

Pretty much every reason you stated above is why I personally stopped running swarms during the last couple months. I would rank the 60min timer as reason #1, with MOV as #2 and more high AGI as #3. Also, the higher average offense of competitive lists doesn't help (more HLCs, 4 red dice phantoms, RAC crits, and gunner manglers). Also, personal perspective, since I got knocked out of two SC by a (mostly) Fat Han twice when he got away with 1 or 2 hull.

Don't worry, Swarms arn't dead, they are just hibernating in the winter.

The Tie Swarm is still VERY effective. There are just too many new toys out there that are more fun to fly than a Tie swarm.

BBBBZ and XXXZZZ should probably be considered a swarm. Tie swarms just don´t seem to cut it against 3 agility targets and MoV tournament rules.

Scum swarms are viable and quite nasty. They haven't caught on as much yet, but they are quite capable against many styles of list. Tie swarms are a different story though. Just not enough firepower or viable responses to high agility.

Scum swarms are viable and quite nasty. They haven't caught on as much yet, but they are quite capable against many styles of list. Tie swarms are a different story though. Just not enough firepower or viable responses to high agility.

This.

Hotshot munition / feedback loop both make Z swarms potentially pretty horrific.

I'd like to think that swarms are still viable. As I consider them the natural predators to 2 ship lists (and especially fat han).

Also a friend of mine won 2 store championships using the same swarm. 4 academies, dark curse and 2 alphas.

I've also toyed with a slightly different swarm.

Sigma, SPA, Intel agent

2 alpha

3 academy

or could swap the 2 alpha's for 3 academy's.

And I've been tempted to run a mixed ship scum swarm too.

4 cartyl spacer scyk's

3 binayre pilot Zs with feedback array.

No idea what OP is on about.

BBBBZ, Binayre Feedback Swarm, even TIE Swarm are all excellent choices right now, especially post-decloak nerf.

I'm biased, but I do have a Regional Bye won off the back of an 8 Academy Tie swarm, if that means anything... and this was from a tournament before the Phantom was nerfed.

Tie swarms now have major problems with Fel, Phantoms and Aggressors, but since the FAQ change all of the above games are winnable, and even 60 minute rounds aren't a massive issue. Conversely, there aren't any easy games, and it's a lot of mental effort over a long tournament, but they're perfectly viable.

I'm biased, but I do have a Regional Bye won off the back of an 8 Academy Tie swarm if that means anything... and this was from a tournament before the Phantom was nerfed.

I like to think of it as a Phantom change not a nerf. I like the Phantom better now, because you can block with a Phantom and still get your move because you know someone is going to bumb you. Then you take their action and then just fly past them. The Tie swarm is still good but now against phantoms, the phantom can get in front of your block of fighters and mess up all your movement, then K turn behind you.

Being able to actually block a Phantom (previously impossible, unless they massively screwed up), then rolling a few 3 dice attacks with Focus against 4 unmodified dice certainly *feels* like a nerf to me.

The Phantom is still incredibly good of course, and very hard to deal with, but it's something you can outfly and trap now, rather than just forcing them into the fourth or fifth best manoeuvre option.

I lost one match to an IG-2000 with 1 hull point left, so that match on MoV was 100-50, when the match was actually much, much closer to 100-100. I really think you should get partial credit for hull damage to large ships.

We score 'friendly' games on proportion of hit points left.

Its much fairer in the long run.

Like in your example i might actually have that IG88 on one hit point but you've got two full strength interceptors and another turn would clearly be the death of me but technically im worth more 'points' .... even if the ship is about to blow up.

We dont have any real precise add up we just work out what you started with as a total of shields and hull points and what you're down to.

But usually we dont have to worry about playing to time so the 'winner' is the one with anything left on the table.

I do feel though that in competetive games its unfair to score a completely unscratched ship as highly as one thats down to a single hull point and has potentially fired off 20 points of ordnance, hot shot blasters and 'one use' EPTs.

Because in reality that surviving ship isnt worth 50 points if its used a lot of upgrades up or had them destroyed.. its worth 30 points or whatever.