The discussion on resource scarcity in the LCG environment in another thread got me to thinking about plot cards and Influence. These items may have been discussed before I found "the Only Game that Matters", but here it goes.

1. Has there ever been a plot effect(s) that modify the influence on the board. For example, Double the value of your influence in play. Or When Revealed, kneel all influence locations? If not would you consider such plot effects welcome and useful in the LCG environment? Would the plot card make it into your plot deck at say 3/4/1?

2. For a more radical change, since influence is becoming more and more of a valuable resource what about adding a 4th icon to plot cards. Instead of gold, initiative and claim, we now have gold, influence, initiative and claim? Is influence a critical enough resource to warrant a new icon on the plot cards?

Comments/Thoughts?

Rob

Taxed at Swordpoint in 5KE doubled influence on kingdom locations (I would off and on have draws decks that had me considering using this plot, but I don't think it ever made it into one of my plot decks). tzumainn.com/agot/cards/card.php

orclrob said:

There was one at 3/4/2 in the Five Kings edition that doubled the amount of influence produced by locations with the Kingdom trait. And way back in Valyrian Edition (where influence was first introduced), there was a 2/2/1 plot that let all influence providing locations provide 1 extra influence. They never saw a whole lot of play, but then influence was perhaps easier to come by at the time.

orclrob said:

I don't think that would be the best idea. If you're going to need/use influence, build it into the deck. And FFG will add more and more influence into the environment, I am sure. My greatest dislike for the idea is that I'd hate to get into situations where we'd have to start paying attention to whether the plot card is knelt or not, and into design space that could kneel plot cards, attach to them, etc.

At this point, I really don't think influence is critical enough. Most of the post-LCG concentration (outside of Targaryen, anyway) has been on "pay gold" effects. Just one or two neutral cards with 2 or 3 influence would really cover it.

ktom said:

Very valid point, I thought about the same thing right after I posted.. and just think what a "knelt" plot card would look like. Since plots are printed "landscape" or knelt mode, kneeling a plot card would make it look like it was standing.. LOL

Still I'm thinking plot text that affect Influence might be worthwhile. It's tough to get enough influence on the board for a westeros bleeds, or that greyjoy character that requires 8 influence :-).

orclrob said:

A plot that built it into a theme deck could be interesting. Something like "Dothraki characters you control provide 1 influence."

I kind of like that influence is scarce right now.

the fact that it is scarce doesn't hurt one house over any other (i think every house has a few good influence cards that get squeezed out right now) and as for targ, well ambush is supposed to be a bonus, not the norm so i'm not really buying that they 'need' more influence. I hope red keep is the only multi influence card in the game for a long time.

orclrob said:

In addition to the two cards already mentioned that increase the influence on some locations there was also a plot that discarded all influence providing cards in play except for 2 cards per player. There has of course also been plots that kneel some or all locations but none that specifically targeted influence.

And in 5KE there was also the plot Favors for the King which allowed to reduce a non-variable influence cost to 0 : tzumainn.com/agot/cards/card.php

Actually, this was the plot everybody thought about when that Drowned Prophet guy (requiring 8 influence) has been released.

orclrob said:

I think there are better ways than kneeling the plot card to indicate wheter a plot cards influence bonus was used or not. I would favorise a rule that would allow you to rotate the plot card to the used pile in order to use the influence printed on the plot card. That could add a strategic element, since you would end up without a revealed plot card- no claim value, no gametext bonus etc.

Another solution for plot cards in general could be to add a flip side to the card. The front card e.g. could have the values "4/2/2; gamextext, +3 influence", if you choose to use the influence the backside could have some other stats, like "2/1/1, negative gametext element". Of course the flip side concept for plots could also be used outside of the discussed influence on plots topic. A plot could e.g. have the game text "If you control less than 3 charachters at the beginning of the challenge phase flip this card", backside "Dominance: You may search your deck for charachter with gold cost 3 or lower and put it into hand, reshuffle".

Both creative and interesting ideas. Two questions, though: if the plots are two-sided, how do you keep them hidden in the plot deck? And which side would be considered active in the used pile (for Kingdom plots, etc.)?

Interesting and certainly places the developers could look to expand the usage of plat cards, but developing those areas of the game space (not having a revealed plot outside of setup and two-sided plots) might make actual play more complicated than it needs to be right now. Just my opinion, though.

How about having the plot allow you to kneel your house card for influence? I'm not sure what the best template would be but Seal of the Wolf at least gives a precedent for cards requiring you to kneel your house card for an effect.

The deck Circle of spies has a unique plot that provides 4 Influence.

So, how do you play it?

As it is not tournament legal it is not a really big deal but you need sthing to symbolize these 4 influences. Besides, do you have to use the 4 Influence once per round or can you use them separately?

fabest said:

That's a little misleading. The Circle of Spies deck had a single card that served as both the House card and the plot card. It was a promo deck without a separate plot deck. The combination House/plot card was printed in portrait, rather than landscape, orientation like any other non-plot card, so could be knelt as a House card would be. And what was printed on the card was a "4 Influence" scroll icon, so no, you couldn't split it up. You had to use it the same way that any other card with an influence scroll icon would be used.

ktom said:

Sure, you are right, cards with gametext on their backsides need sleeves or some other helper to hide them in the plot deck. It makes things a little more complicated, but it could be done. The active plot plot question is easier to solve, it just needs a ruling. I would prefer that the active side in the used pile is always the side of the plot that was turned upside at the end of the round, that way you could also include the game mechanism that you earn a keyword by flipping the plot.

Of course in general things get a little more complicated, but other game mechanics like the additional epic phase or the shadow area etc. also include some challenging rule question. ~ I think you know that perfectly well. ;-) So i don´t see the complexity level as the major reason against cards with a flipside. Some players even seem to like complex and challenging gameplay- though i don´t know if FFG is looking for these customer groups.

Old Ben said:

Note that I said it's a complexity level I don't think the game needs right now. Between the Epic phase, the whole season thing and now Shadows, we've had a bunch of new mechanics, card effect classes and game concepts coming at us in fairly rapid fire succession for awhile now. It'd be nice to acclimate and explore what we do have a little deeper instead of introducing yet another new mechanic. I'm sorry if it seemed I was shooting down the idea. It's only the timing of it that I don't like.

Personally, I'd rather see some trait-based goodness to enhance in-game flavor before we see another new mechanic, way to play existing cards or even the introduction of influence to plots. (For example, it irks me a little that the card pool has prohibited a decent Night's Watch build for over a year.)

ktom said:

Yes, traitbased synergy has always been the backbone of interesting decks so that should always be a main focus on design. Also, you need to keep the Neds out there happy.

Yay, theme decks! Ok, so I'm a bit of a Ned. I'm desperately wanting the fun of the ITE block Tyrell decks to come back around.

Oh, and those flippable plots do sound extremely interesting. Perhaps as the major mechanic release for next year.... *hint hint*