Erik Bauer said:

Considering that variation for skills in WFRP2 was actually Untrained/Trained/+10%/+20% (only four levels in total), and skills were binary in WFRP1, I don't see that as a reduction in variation.

As for the relative weight of ability vs skill... the skill dice (yellows) are 6-siders, while the ability dice are 8-sided. We know, from the seminar video, that the yellow skill dice have at least one blank side, one showing a hammer (a success) with a little plus icon beneath it, one showing an eagle (a boon result), and one showing a twin-tailed comet (unknown effect at the moment, but extremely likely to be beneficial). The other two sides, I've not yet seen, but there are a couple of possibilities that spring to mind.

Assuming the unseen sides are a hammer and a blank, the chances of rolling a success on a skill dice is 33% (2 sides out of 6), with a 16.67% chance of getting a boon, a 16.67% chance of getting whatever the comet represents, and a 33% chance of nothing.

Alternately, the two unseen sides are both hammers, which changes things to 50% success, 16.67% boon, 16.67% comet of indeterminate benefit, and 16.67% chance of nothing.

The eight-siders apparently have four hammers, two eagles and two blank faces.

That's a 50% chance of a success, a 25% chance of a boon, and a 25% chance of nothing.

Using the first assumption about the skill dice, it appears that the ability dice are more important (higher chance of success, higher chance of a boon, smaller chance of nothing), save for the presently-unknown nature of the comet symbol.

Using the second assumption about the skill dice, it appears that they're a little ahead of the ability dice, having a smaller chance of nothing, the same chance of a success, and an unknown beneficial effect in the form of the comet symbol.

Common sense (something which hasn't let me down so far in regards to speculating about the mechanics of WFRP3) suggests the latter is more likely from a gameplay perspective - skill dice being similar to, but slightly more beneficial than, the basic ability dice that everyone rolls makes good sense, and makes those trained and skilled notably better at their preferred tasks than amateurs.

It does seem, however, that stance and context plays a larger factor than ability or skill - difficulty dice (purple d8s) and misfortune dice (black d6s) seem to consist of bad results, while fortune dice (white d6s) consist of good results (three hammers, an eagle and two blanks), and the stance dice (green and red d10s, for conservative and reckless, respectively) seem to contain a lot of successes (in the case of the reckless ones, multiple successes on a single face).

NewTroski said:

I don't understand your math. With a 60% chance of succeeding on a D100 you have 60 in 100 possible results that are a success and only 40 in 100 results that are a failure so your chance of succeeding is higher. Yes the chance of rolling any since result is the same across the board but that's why you have a range of results that are a success, giving you different probabilities of success and failure.

If a crit/fumble happen on a 1/100 respectivly then the above becomes 1 in 100 for a crit, 59 in 100 normal sucess, 39 in 100 basic failure, 1 in 100 fumble which would meet what it seems you are asking for.

Erik Bauer said:

Erik, I'd written what I thought was a comprehensive and erudite reply to your post and then discovered that N0-1_H3r3 had read my mind, pinched my post and **** well improved upon it!

I couldn't concur more strongly with N0-1_H3r3's analysis. The yellow dice do appear more focused and precise in their outcomes than the characteristic dice, just like the applied skill that they represent. And that comet can only be good! Of all the die types available (purple, yellow, blue, green, red, black or white) it seems the yellow skill dice alone can offer up the twin-tailed comet result.

Unfortunately it's not possible to calculate accurate odds quite yet, as we don't know the exact distribution of the different symbols amongst the different dice. Indeed, we may not yet know precisely what symbols there are, let alone their game effects. But I reckon N0-1_H3r3's given it as good a shake as can be shook.

lordmalachdrim said:

I think his understanding of the math may be a little off. With a D100 system any number is as likely to come up as any other. This is actually irrelevent, however - what is important is the percentage chance to hit. The same percentages exist in a dice pool system, you just can't see them unless you figure out the math.

A bigger problem with the WFRP percentile system is the tendency towards extreme results. You are more likely to get a critical success or failure (3 degrees of success or failure) on a roll than a 'standard' success. This means that 'gonzo' results are the norm, rather than standard ones.

Dice pool systems tend to be predictable. With a certain number of dice you can be fairly sure of any given result, with 'extreme' results rendered extremely unlikely. Weird results are rare. This makes them more enjoyable - a critical hit is a moment to be treasured rather than something to be expected, a pratfall an amusing moment rather than a repeated occurance.

NezziR said:

No problem, mate, happy to oblige. Like you, I'm a veteran of WFRPv1, bought it the first day it appeared on shelves here in Australia. So I've been following these recent developments with keen interest.

You know, I think I might spin that post off into its own thread. It might be of help to some readers who haven't dug five pages into this one.

macd21 said:

Every played with 3d6 system?

I enjoy the extreme results if they appear sufficently enough to create the difference. If 95% of the time I got the same results, it starts to get boring.

The d100 (or a simple dice mechanic), in addition, will give the player a simple way of assessing his probability of success, on the fly.

Overall, if used creatively, d100 are open to many ways of reducing (or eliminating) the types of issues you mentioned, while keeping it simple.

Dice pools are open to other issues. Many others.

macd21 said:

The interesting, and perhaps revealing, thing is how tight the dice distribution in the core set appears to actually be. We know that there are three potential skill advances and only four yellow skill dice are included. We know there are thirteen stance checkboxes on the character sheet, yet only eight stance dice are included. Of course, stance selections are split between Green-Red so it's unlikely all those thirteen will be filled. But, when you consider that starting characters begin with at least four stance pieces and basic careers offer up to two stance advances, those eight dice are still not going to stretch too far (an advanced Troll Slayer will be using all four reckless dice, for instance).

So, based on these assumptions, those eight characteristic dice may not be too far out of reach for an experienced character.

DeathFromAbove said:

Please say which.

Myself, I see them as much more elegant and flexible than rolling 1d100. Good example was Alternity, an old-school game by all standards that uses dice pools.

cogollo said:

I agree. There are reasons why you shouldn't just make a statement like that without then listing the issues. Many reasons.

Yet once again a company in attempt to increase profits takes an item that is not broken and breaks it. Nice going.. I understand you inherited this product from another company which was doing a fine job. It had its issues yes but this redesign seems a be created to increase your profits with these new cards ( an attempt to gain card gamer interest) and silly dice with icons so we need your dice to play. I love your board games and own many of them. I also play two of your rpgs, well one now since I assume all warhammer 2.0 stuff will now be axed. RT has my hopes up and am waiting for ever for a true release date. PLEASE DON'T CAST YOUR DEVOTED CUSTOMERS TO THE WIND IN AN ATTEMPT TO INCREASE YOUR BOTTAM LINE. THERE ARE BETTER WAYS TO INCREASE PROFITS. Ladies and gentlemen $100 for the basic set for an RPG/ Card game, come now.

Dice pools are nothing new in gaming and can work well, but when you create new dice to role and in the old shapes and remove the numbers come now... Cheap way to ensure player buy your dice.. I will not be purchasing this product.. we don't need flash, we need a strong system that does not require new cards, dice, and chips to play. This all seems a very cheap way to get our money and its a very thin veil indeed.

timberww said:

Yet another rehash of the S.O.S.

How does v2 getting axed drop you from playing 2 of FFGs role-playing games to only one? Why not keep playing v2?

/Yes, my Animal Handling skill includes the beating of deceased equines.

Symbols?

On MY dice?!?

Not on my watch.

Numbered d30s 4EVAH.

My biggest problem with dice pools is the averaging issue. Like someone said previously, it becomes boring if the result can be predicted 90% of the time.

Take many of the D&D spells in the various editions that use ever increasing numbers of dice as you gain in level. At 1-3rd levels, there is a lot of variety in the results - sometimes the spells do really well, other times they suck, because you're only rolling 1-3 dice. By the time you're up around 7-8the level, the spell results are pretty darn predictable, because you don't get as much variation out of 7-8 dice. By the time you're rolling 15-20 dice, you can pretty much predict exactly what your damage will be within a half dozen points. It get's boring after awhile.

I'm not quite sure how the symbols combined with the dice pool will play out - maybe it will "fix" the averaging issue, maybe it will make it worse.

Erik Bauer said:

Forgive me for being blunt, but you seem to run a hypocritical argument here. You said yourself that ROLEPLAYING is what RPG's are all about. NOT Game mechanics. If you're going to argue a point you'll find it a lot easier to make up your mind first.

Game mechanics aren't the "backbone" of an RPG, game mechanics are interchangeable. If you don't like a rules system, you switch to another. It won't affect roleplaying at all if you're really ROLEPLAYING. But since your standpoint is that game mechanics are the backbone of the game, then I could certainly see why you're upset over the developments of the third edition. But don't come whining about how it upsets the roleplaying because it doesn't...

Mordenthral said:

One man's dream-killer is another man's Pragmatic realist, I guess.

kristof65 said:

How can you predict getting a skull in the chaos die (black) or in the difficulty die (purple)? I think you are talking here about rolling several dice and adding their results together, but that's not what a pool of dice is, at least not how they have introduced it for WFRP 3rd edition. Let me give an example about a system I know, Alternity.

Say you are rolling damage for a laser attack, a d10, and the victim has an armour that allows him to roll a d4 and subtract that from the damage taken. What's predictable about rolling a d10-d4?

But even more, the advantage of such systems is that they give a lot of extra information, if:

- damage roll was a 4 and armor roll was a 1, you can describe it as the laser hitting the victim somewhere where he was not well enough protected and thus the victim suffers some wounds.

- damage roll was a 4 and armor roll was a 4, you can describe it as the laser hitting the victim where the armour was thickest, thus absorbing all the damage.

Please, give the idea some more time and think it through. You'll realise it gives the GM and the players a lot more information in less time than you get using normal probability rolls, be they 1d100, 3d6 or 1d8+1(Str bonus)+1(morale)+1(haste bonus)+etc...

If they design these dice pools only as good as TSR designed Alternity back in the day (and it's already around 15 years) I can assure you the system will rock.

PS: I just posted an example of how I would use the dice pool to use armour during combat. No way you could create a simpler system to convey the same information using only probability dice and weapons and believe me that I tried hard with WFRP 2nd edition to get something similar for gunpowder weapons, but the results were too time consuming for it to be fun... dice pools make the mechanics quicker, leaving more time to do the roleplaying.

kristof65 said:

Yes, you're right, those dice are indeed predictable. But that's because all the dice you roll are the same. The WFRP dicepools consist of d8's, d10's and d6's, each having a good or bad result. That's a bit harder to predict what the result will be. With numerical dice, you just have to predict the average, with these dice, you need to predict the result of each die. I'm sure there's a mathematical formula to calculate this, but I doubt someone will be able to do it on the fly during a game (as for your example, if it's d6's that are rolled, I'd say 4 is the average, so 4x20 is 80 damage, give or take).

Still, in the end, no matter how much dice you roll, how good or how bad the odds are, it all comes down to a chance of 50%.

Either you make it, or you don't...

The dice article is pretty nice and much appreciated. Here's some speculation based on what I've seen/read so far:

Player Modifier (helpful) Dice:
8x d8 Characteristic Dice (Blue)
4x Success/2x Boon/2x Blank
4x d6 Expertise [skill] Dice (Yellow)
Righteous Success/Success/Boon/Comet/2x Blank
6x d6 Fortune Dice (White)
3x Success/1x Boon/2x Blank
4x d10 Recklace Dice (Red)
Success/Double Success/Exertion
4x d10 Conservative Dice (Green)
Success/Boon/Success-Delay/Blank

GM Modifier (hurtful) Dice:
6x d6 Misfortune Dice (Black)
3x Challenge/1x Bane/2x Blank
4x d8 Challenge [Difficulty] Dice (Purple)
Chaos Star/Challenge/Double Challenge/Bane

---------
36 Dice

The way I see it, it will be a back and forth between the player and the GM.

Player: OK, I'm climbing this wall. I have a strength of 3, so 3x blue dice. I'm trained in climbing, so 1x yellow. I'm going to be cautious, my stance is set to 1 green, so I'll trade a blue for a green. (2b/1y/1g)

GM: It's not a difficult climb, so it's a standard test. Add 2 purple. But, like I mentioned earlier, it's raining, so add a black as well. (2blu/1y/1g/1blk/2p)

Player: That misfortune dice hurts. I think I'll spend a point and add a fortune die.

GM: Ok then, that's 2blu/1y/1g/1blk/2p/1w - roll 'em up.

Once the dice are rolled, spend a few seconds removing the die that cancel each other out, then interpret the result. Sounds fun and I like the back and forth interaction between the players and the GM. Sort of like a bidding process.

On the other hand, that is a sizable dice pool (8 die for a pretty standard/typical roll). On a normal night dice will be bouncing all over the place. So, I've started working on a few 'dice boxes'. I'm making the first one out of an old hexagon shaped clock. I removed the glass and the clock workings and I'll cover the bottom of it in black felt. The 2nd one is made out of wall pieces from 'Dwarven Forges' dungeon line. The dice tend to knock the little 'bow-ties' out, so I'll make a small floor for it and cover that in black felt as well. Sweet, a project

Recap of dice types:
Challenge Dice
These purple eight-sided dice represent the challenges and difficulties facing a character when attempting an action. The results are generally bad for the character – most of the effects undermine success, or make it more likely that some sort of detrimental side effect will occur.

Characteristic Dice
These blue eight-sided dice form the basis of a dice pool when performing an action, representing how important an individual characteristic is towards accomplishing the task. The higher a character’s Strength, for example, the more blue characteristic dice he contributes to actions based on Strength. Characteristic dice have beneficial symbols, and several blank sides. The blue characteristic dice can be converted into different dice based on a character’s current stance.

Conservative Dice
These green ten-sided dice represent the low-risk, low-reward stance a character can adopt while performing actions. The conservative dice reflect a measured, cautious, or thoughtful approach to the situation. The conservative dice have a very good chance of contributing towards the success of an action, but an overly cautious approach may cause delays.

Expertise Dice
These yellow six-sided dice represent dedicated training or exceptional aptitude with a skill or special proficiency. They feature a special symbol that allows a character to roll additional dice, as well as a symbol that can trigger special effects based on training or aptitude.

Fortune Dice
These white six-sided dice provide a slight edge for the character. Fortune dice are granted for tactical advantages, as well as by certain talents, party abilities, or by spending fortune points. Half of the sides of a fortune die are blank, the other half have beneficial effects.

Misfortune Dice
These black six-sided dice impose a slight complication to a dice pool. Misfortune dice are assigned for tactical disadvantages, as well as for certain talents, conditions, or debilitating effects such as critical wounds. Half of the sides of a misfortune die are blank, the other half have detrimental effects.

Reckless Dice
These red ten-sided dice represent the high-risk, high-reward stance a character can adopt while performing actions. The reckless dice reflect an aggressive, fiery, or daemon-may-care approach to the situation. The reckless dice feature several potent faces with numerous positive effects, but also several blank sides and some drawbacks.

I don't see Alternity as a dice pool system.

You roll a d20 for pretty much everything execpt damage. You only roll another die if total mods are other then 0.

So 0 net modifer just roll d20

-1 net mod roll d20-d4 (d4 reduces result on d20)

-2 net mod roll d20-d6 (as above and so on)

+1 net mod roll d20+d4 (and so on)

You tried to roll below the skill rating (didn't matter if the skill was piloting, or unarmed combat) All skills had three numbers Ordinary Success/Good Success/Amazing Success. so you knew how well you did right away. All weapons had three damages listed which coresponded to the the skill result.

When I think dice pool I think you have x number of dice. Wheather your talking:

SR 1 -3 with x number = to skill with a variable target number

WoD with x number = to stat + skill with variable target number

SR4 or NWoD with x number = to stat + skill with modifiers adding/subtracting dice from the roll

I'm an "old school roleplayer," but I've never played WFRP, so I'm neutral on the issues here, though understanding of those who feel that the V2 system hasn't been honored. But I don't think the change is purely a way for FFG to make more money, though as a business that always has to be a consideration. I think they genuinely wanted to advance RPG design and are bringing skills gained in boardgame design to the process. Had FFG created an entirely new fantasy world and campaign, we would still be having a discussion about the merits of iconic die, cards, and so on, but the tone of that discussion would be different from a lot of what I read on these boards. If a mistake was made, it was in taking a well-loved and well-used fantasy setting and using it as the basis for this experimentation. That is bound to raise the ire (and perhaps justifiably so) of those who already have a lot of money, time, and expertise invested in the system as it was and who can see that system now being brought to a close. On the other hand, and this is where I do think a monetary consideration played a part, more people are likely to buy a familiar property than a totally new and unfamiliar one, and having gained the license to the Warhammer setting, I can understand why FFG wants to use it. Had I been Christian, I think I would have opted for creating a totally new fantasy setting, but that's a huge amount of work with a lot of risk. This way, the old-timers get offended (maybe) but newcomers and part-time players get to try out a new system in a familiar setting, and the designers don't have to come up with a whole new universe.

Knowing the FFG people, though, I am convinced that their basic motive is to advance the art of role playing, and particularly to attract and hold new players. Whether they succeed or not--and whether they were right to use WFRP as their test subject--is another matter. But I have to say, I've not been role playing for a few years now, but the more I read of the interesting and innovative mechanics of V3, the more I am drawn to picking it up and starting in again. I feel excitement about roleplaying for the first time in a long time. But, as I said, I'm not a WFRP player, so I have no investments already in the setting or in what has gone before, so my emotions are not involved in the controversy.

I will also point out something that was mentioned in the seminar video ... although exactly how it works hasn't been mentioned.

Critical hits! Critical hits can occur with *any* attack, instead of the old system where they only occured once someone got to 0 wounds.

I imagine there is something in the dice pool that signifies a critical hit. It might even be able to tell the severity of the critical, etc.

It is features like these that makes the dice pool more flexible than a single straight roll. Besides saying "success" or "failure" you get additional effects.

Consider the example of Omen given in the dice article. Beyond success or failure, the action card shows that Blessings provide recharge tokens for the spell, while Banes remove recharge tokens. Recharge tokens allow the caster to reroll Fortune and Misfortune dice.

Man, I came back late to this thread.

Let me begin by saying that if you actually READ how this came about and how this is all progressing, you'd be less harsh on FFG.

1. Games Workshop and the absorbed Black Industries people are being consulted on this version. James constantly mentions how they have to demonstrate a new mechanic and GW's reaction. So far, Games Workshop has green-lit everything, even being excited and suggesting new stuff. So if you feel that FFG isn't showing respect for 23 years of WHFR, then neither are Games Workshop or the absorbed BI people.

2. The specialty dice appear to be a recommendation from Games Workshop. Using different elf races and excluding halflings was something BI was considering two years ago for their v3.

Someone made a comment about how their players use the d100 system to determine the outcomes of certain actions and rely on that statistical knowledge to drive character decisions. Would a character know those odds so directly? Isn't role-playing about putting yourself into the character's place and not acting on out-of-character information? If you are going on statistics and probabilities of die rolls to determine your character's actions, you aren't role-playing as much as you are wargaming or trying to "win" by using outside knowledge.

Personally, I never tell players what modifiers I'm assigning to an action until after they've locked in an action. Characters can't know every possible detail about every potential action they may be taking. They do what they think is effective based on their own experiences, and are still learning as they go.

McClaud said:

Glad that GW is actively involved - WHFRP3 could be another tie-in to the huge product line of GW miniatures. If WHFRP3 uses stand-ups then why not use a GW miniature of the same thing...would be awesome if GW created a line of minis especially for the new WHFRP3 game.

The 5 part video that described the system (from GENCON?) got me interested. Can't wait to learn more. I have played RPGs since the D&D blue box edition that my brother brought home from a game store in 1977.

Tang86 said:

Some people might disagree with you. Some people dislike GW for changing the rules just enough between versions of 40k to force people to buy new miniatures.

I'm just glad that I can virtually use any of my Warhammer fantasy miniatures now that High Elves are an actual, independent race.

McClaud said:

Very good point.

Also, I wonder why anyone would like to see anything as an insult to Games Workshop of all companies. Games Workshop have done plenty of ***** moves over the years and totally buttf*cked many of their customers.

Not only are they tighter than a ducks butthole about their Intellectual Property (remember the Damnatus fan movie being completely shut down?), but they have made some pretty outrageous increases in price over pretty much all of their products (especially their paints, brushes, glue and undercoat spray). And when it comes to quality? Haha! Okay, I'll admit they produce some nice minis (most of the time) but for the prices they're asking it's pretty ridiculuous. Compare GW's metal minis with the ones that Rackham used make for Confrontation (before Rackham decided to jump on the "pre-painted plastic bull miniatures a la DnD style"-train that is). Drastic difference in quality and craftsmanship to say the least, and Confrontation minis were only marginally more expensive than the GW blisterpacks.

Oh and don't get me started on some of the utterly stupid army list changes they've done to some of the most recent codex books. (Anyone recall the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines fiasco?)

Now I don't hate Games Workshop (im still their customer after all, although not nearly a "happy" one. I just tolerate some of their bull because I really like the fluff they've made). But you'd have to be really delusional if you can't see some of the corporate bull they've pulled over the years they have been around.

So even IF FFG had just "capitalized" on the license and completely shown GW the middle finger about it (which they haven't but for arguments case, let's say they have), why would it matter? GW certainly had it coming anyway. Karmic justice to say the least.

So if you dislike WFRP 3rd for what it is, that's okay. But isn't it a bit silly trying to portray Games Workshop of all companies to be a silent victim of corporate, capitalistic buttf*cking from FFG? Even if that was true, it would be like Hannibal Lecter pulling pranks on Satan (you shouldn't really root for or defend either of the two)