Only FFG knows if "folks have come to terms with it" ... none of us know the numbers. Yes, you see a lot of people playing, but FFG probably cares about "How many more people might be playing if."

Well, feel free to not spend your money on it, if you're dissatisfied. No doubt FFG has taken into account that not everyone will buy their stuff. Given how often they're reprinting, I'd say that having too much stock because a huge groundswell of people are dissatisfied is not their current problem.

On top of that, FFG has repeatedly said that they will not be doing card-only expansions for X-Wing, so there's no reason to think that they'll change their minds with Armada.

I still think it's a bit early to have this discussion. Until we have wave 1 and some sort of meta actually starts to form. It's hard to say how things will work.

But given the lists I've come up with so far, I just don't think upgrades are going to play such a big part of Armada that you'll need 2+ copies of many upgrades.

For example how many Expanded Hanger Bay's do you really need? Or Weapon Liaisons? In some cases it may be nice to have 2 or 3 of some upgrades, but will it really be needed for a list to be competitive?

This is the other half of my thought as well. As far as I've ever been concerned, everything you absolutely need for the game piece your playing, comes in it's own package. That's been like RoT for FFG. I'm positive that even buying faction pure should give you a competitive list. TIE swarm comes to mind. From the previewed content. I can't really think of anything that is critical to a ships function that's in another faction package. Might be some interesting combos but nothing in the 'need' category. As your collections grow naturally any kinks that do appear ought to sort themselves out. Like AdvSens in X-wing. Wasn't going to buy more Shuttles because I already had one. Oh look the list for rebels that uses two (biggs walks dogs) is enabled in a pair of E-wings. Awesome. There were other things I could still run straight out of rebel product at the time and been fine with so wasn't worried.

(HK-47 voice) Surprised Observation: It would seem that this problem appears in geographical locations more than gamer population economic strata. When it is brought up as an area of concern, the plaintiff often references a much larger issue they are aware of in their area. The ones who claim it is not so, often don't have similar experiences. And while cost is mentioned, it also rarely seems to be the focus of the debate. Statement: I'm sure by now I would have heard a similar objection if it were present in my area. Perky Commentary: My sociology class has me trying to analyze forum data from the Sociological perspective seeking patterns. Queery: Do you have any additional insight to correct my initial hypothesis? Dejected Muttering: I can't call people worthless meat-bags on the internets.

Notwithstanding casual games, where I know anything goes as long as it is mutually agreed with your opponent. This is just talking about official Tourney requirements, and my post has a bias towards both X-Wing and now Armada...

Also notwithstanding the fact that "some" official legal cards are available for purchase through ebay etc

Now I fully agree with the fact that all ship MODELS (including stands maybe) should be official. but to me that's where the mandatory component requirement should end.

Personally I don't see any problem in allowing Card Proxies in tournaments, especially if the faction legal upgrade card I want to play, fitted to my Tourney legal plastic miniature, is only available by buying a model that I only consider because it comes with the Upgrade Card i want i.e. I don't want the model, I just want the card.

Now, I am SURE that for Tourneys some people borrow both models and cards to complete their list. Such a borrower obviously didn't buy the item, any more than I did if I print a proxy card. Yet (s)he can play, but I can't (OK you may rightly argue that at least a model was bought by someone). Anyhow, with regard to Tourney play, should I consider that I am being penalised because I can't afford / don't want that other model.

Not everyone can afford to buy a model just to get a card. Why should they be penalised by not being able to use a card that is out there, but they don't own it? Why should the completist, who has multiple copies of everything, be advantaged? Is it fair, that when I buy the models I want to fly, mine can be outclassed by someone flying the same ship, but with equipment borrowed from say a Rebel transport that (s)he can afford to buy?

I would think, I'm not sure however, I just think, that FFG will still sell their models, even if Proxy cards were allowed in Tournaments. After all I doubt that too high a proportion of FFG mini sales are due to people buying a pack because of a card, rather than the model. Furthermore, buying just a card from eBay is legal (note I didn't buy the ship just the card), but printing a card is not - weird! Although again, for the card to be on eBay, it can be argued that the corresponding mini will have been bought by someone.

And yet, Proxy Tokens, Rulers and Templates are all allowed! Yes yes, I know the card tokens come with the model, so if I have the model I must have had the card tokens, but really does it matter? really? And what about proxy Rulers and Templates? well I may not have bought the starter set, and Yet I am allowed to proxy the rulers? so why can't I proxy the cards?

Finally, I know that the rules are FFG Rules, but really I doubt if anyone actually playing in a tournament cares whether or not their opponent uses a proxy card. I also doubt that the FFG intention of the "No Proxy Card" Tourney rules was to insist that, for example, in order to play with the "ThunderThwacker Laser Cannon" upgrade on my M-Wing, that I must pay £95 for the "Coast Guard Cutter" from wave 14.

but to me that's where the mandatory component requirement should end.

There's a whole host of reasons why they should require official components. Uniformity, ease of reading, knowing that every upgrade actually does the same thing, simple appearance, and even the fact that it makes them more profit.

But as long as you're playing official FFG events your opinion on what should or shouldn't be allowed really doesn't matter. Their game, their rules.

Finally, I know that the rules are FFG Rules, but really I doubt if anyone actually playing in a tournament cares whether or not their opponent uses a proxy card.

Myself and a lot of other people do in fact care.

but to me that's where the mandatory component requirement should end.

There's a whole host of reasons why they should require official components. Uniformity, ease of reading, knowing that every upgrade actually does the same thing, simple appearance, and even the fact that it makes them more profit.

But as long as you're playing official FFG events your opinion on what should or shouldn't be allowed really doesn't matter. Their game, their rules.

Finally, I know that the rules are FFG Rules, but really I doubt if anyone actually playing in a tournament cares whether or not their opponent uses a proxy card.

Myself and a lot of other people do in fact care.

Apologies, I actually meant a printed "Copy" of the card. So the uniformity would be upheld.

Agree, their Tourney their Rules - but just making the point that I disagree with their rules - and I know that it does not matter what my opinion is.

I am very surprised that anyone cares - and now that you mention it, I wonder Why "YOU " would care.

Oh, and by the way I do own at least one of EVERYTHING X-Wing and Armada, so I do own all the cards. But I certainly would not care is anyone proxied a card.

Apologies, I actually meant a printed "Copy" of the card.

If someone won't buy the stuff that is needed to play the list they want, then they shouldn't play that list. This is a hobby and luxury pastime, the "I can't afford it" doesn't fly here. As such I expect everyone to play by the same rules, what ever those happen to be.

Most games don't allow people to use proxies... It's not like you can go to a MtG tournament with a bunch of photocopies, or play in a Warmachine tournament with proxies... Why should FFG games be any different?

sure it's a luxury to be able to afford everything, but of course there will be people who can't afford to spend a lot of money just to buy a single CARD. But should those people be potentially non competitive in this GAME, just because they can't afford to buy a model to get the card - after all it's just a CARD, it's not the mini, it's a card, it's a mini game not a card game. The card merely outlines an upgrade that I have on my ship, that's all.

And of course we should all play by the same rules, I'm just suggesting that I believe this rule to be wrong.

As has already been mooted elsewhere in this thread, it's a miniatures game. I am not suggesting that the miniatures should be proxied, but this is a card that is possibly only available by buying an item that I don't want or can't afford. Ofc I don't think its acceptable to print cards for an MtG tourney, in the same way as I don't expect to use meeples as X-Wing proxies in an FFG X-Wing Tourney.

hypothetically, if there wasn't a no "CARD" proxy rule, would you still object to your opponent using a proxy. In other words, is your stance purely based on the fact that these are the rules, and that's the end of it?

[...]Why the hell anyone is looking for extra Engine Upgrades beyond the two that come in the iconic Falcon I'll never know either[...]

Perhaps they want to play with a pair of Lambda Shuttle and would like them to be a bit more maneuverable.

Apologies, I actually meant a printed "Copy" of the card.

If someone won't buy the stuff that is needed to play the list they want, then they shouldn't play that list. This is a hobby and luxury pastime, the "I can't afford it" doesn't fly here. As such I expect everyone to play by the same rules, what ever those happen to be.

Most games don't allow people to use proxies... It's not like you can go to a MtG tournament with a bunch of photocopies, or play in a Warmachine tournament with proxies... Why should FFG games be any different?

In general I can agree with the sentiment but I don't think you are seeing the point some are making. Yes this is a luxury past-time and like all hobbies if you can afford it don't get into it. Personnel choice and all that. What people are disappointed about is the particular model of how cards are distributed in the game.

To be clear:

We all agree that Fantasy Flight can sell the game how they choose. This is a luxury and not a life ending requirement of some sort.

Some games are far more expensive and others are not. We don't have to buy the game and could purchase anything else we chose to and could afford.

Again, do we have to have this things? Of course not, we would play with TIE Advanced as is or bemoan how much they are over pointed.

Is FFG obligated to bow to our will? Not in the least. It is their product and a very good one at that; most, if not all of us on these forums, love these games. Me too

But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. Nor does that mean that as much as we like the game, its quality, Fantasy Flight's superb customer support, their dedication to quality and thematic driven games that fans love, etc.... That doesn't mean that as much as we love all of this we are not disappointed by, at least, a few things. Such as purchasing a Millennium Falcon to get an Engine Upgrade for a Lambda, or buying 2 to 4 Star Vipers to get Auto-Thrusters for an Epic squad of TIE Interceptors, or buying a $100 Raider used in Epic play to make TIE Advanced fighters even reasonable to play in a 100 point non-epic standard game. We could make proxies but as I pointed out earlier that simply confirms that there is an issue. We could do without, and if it is based on your personal budget them maybe you should, but if not then perhaps some of the 'complaints' aren't unreasonable (is 'aren't unreasonable a double negative?)

But I am the steward of my own funds and for a game that many have invested heavily in the card distribution model and the fact that more 'fixes' are coming bothers some. It is not unreasonable when some express their consternation. Regardless though... this really isn't, or at least shouldn't be, 'I can't afford it so they have to make/sell it cheaper'. I agree that is a terrible argument, I know I've tried with Lamborghini dealers and it never works.

P.S. Since you brought up MtG there was an interesting Pod Cast on NPR about how WotC actively keeps the prices more affordable (lower) in third market area specifically to improve the game, the players experience and their ability/desire to play.

Again, just my two cents

[...]

hypothetically, if there wasn't a no "CARD" proxy rule, would you still object to your opponent using a proxy. In other words, is your stance purely based on the fact that these are the rules, and that's the end of it?

Me? I wouldn't object and I'll admit at home I have proxied cards in the past.

Nevertheless it is my personal preference to play with actual game components rather than have to make my own.

(unless of course that game specifically states this is not a complete game and you will have to make some or all of the game components from materials that not not provided)

That doesn't mean that as much as we love all of this we are not disappointed by, at least, a few things.

I agree. FFG is by and large a very player friendly company, but there are still things they do that are not very player friendly.

C-3PO in the CR-90, the X1 title in the Raider are two prime examples, with the X1 being the more egregious of the two, IMO. C-3PO is nice and powerful, but not nearly as important to have as the X1 title is.

I fully expect that to field a truly competitive list, it's unlikely you'll be able to stay faction pure in Armada. You're likely to find cards in the Assault Frigate or CR-90 pack that will be quite useful on a VSD.

For example you may find you want a 2nd H9 Turbolaser or a Sensor Team, to get those cards, as far as I can tell, you'd need to buy a Assault Frigate MKII. A core set and VSD expansion would only give you a single H9 Turbo.

So I expect you'll find 1 of everything is quite nice to have.

The real question though, is if 2-3 H9 Turbo's (or any other upgrade) are even going to be useful or not. Then what would you have to buy to get that many of them. Those questions we can't really answer right now.

The real question though, is if 2-3 H9 Turbo's (or any other upgrade) are even going to be useful or not. Then what would you have to buy to get that many of them. Those questions we can't really answer right now.

And so we wait and hope...

If FFG would make a list building app similar to privateer press's for warmahordes they could just charge a few bucks to unlock each waves card packs.

I really would love that. The War Room is a very nice app with some lovely options and having it all in one application is really convenient and I really didn't mind buying decks even though I had the cards that came with my miniatures.

And it even wouldn't be that hard for FFG, given that they are already selling an app that is supposed to help you with Armada/X-Wing.

As for business practices... it's really sweet that you guys use "you don't need to have cards in casual games" as an argument, but if you play in a tournament and are forced to buy a Raider just to get TIE Advanced fix card it's a whole different beast. Forcing people to buy models just to get one card -is- terrible business practice and the fact that people sell singles on the internet is not an argument against that fact, it's a workaround for players.

Sorry, but no one is being "forced" to buy anything. FFG isn't sending Stormtroopers to anyone's house to march them down to their LGS to buy a Raider or two. FFG is offering a fix to the TIE Advanced, along with a TIE Advanced model and a Raider model. If you feel that it's worth the money, buy it. Otherwise, don't.

No offense, but this is one of the most stupid things I ever read. OF COURSE noone forces us to buy anything!

Do you really think that expecting people to buy 2 TIE Defenders and/or two Imperial Aces packs while playing Rebels or Scums just to get a few cards (Predator, Opportunist) required for a competitive list is a good practice?

Let me quote you something:

It's funny how people are complaining how expensive this game is. When you look at the over all price of X-wing and some of the cheaper or more expensive lists.

World's 2014 winning list - Paul Heaver

Fat Han (Predator + C-3PO + R2-D2 + Falcon Title + Engine) + 3 Z-95s

Starter set - $40

Falcon - $30

Tantive IV - $90

Defender - $15

Z-95 x 3 - $45

Total = $215

World's Runner up list - Morgan Reid

Whisper (VI + FCS + Tactician + ACD) + Academy x 3 + Howlrunner (Swarm Tactics)

Starter set x 2 - $80

Tie Fighter - $15

Tie Phantom - $15

Firespray or Falcon - $30

Lambda Shuttle - $30

Total = $170

Multiple Store Championship list

B - Wing x 4 + Z-95 Headhunter

Starter set - $40

B-Wings x 4 = $60

Z-95 x 1 - $15

Total = $115

Panic Attack list

B-Wing x 3 (Tactitian + E2 upgrade) + Y-Wing (Ion cannon turret + R3-A2)

Starter set - $40

B-Wing x 1 - $15

Rebel Aces x 2 - $60

Y-Wing x 1 - $15

Rebel Transport - $60

Tie Phantoms x 3 - $45

Total = $235

Tie Swarm

Howlruner (Swarm Tactics) + Backstabber + Black (Draw their fire) + 3 x Acadamies + Obsidian

Starter set x 3 - $120

Tie Fighter - $15

Falcon - $30

Total = $165

Fat Dash and Corran

Dash (PTL + Kyle + Engine + HLC + Outrider) Corran (VI + R2-D2+ FCS)

Starter set - $40

Dash - $30

E-Wing - $15

Falcon - $30

Rebel Aces - $30

A-Wing - $15

B-Wing - $15

Total = $175

Every X-Wing list costs you at least $100. Some lists are really unique and only have 1 application while some are really diverse in their usage. Take a second and this about what the average list costs you to put together.

Edit: Spelling and Grammar

Look how many -UNNECESSARY- models you pay for in a tournament squad for X-wing just to get a couple cards. Not to mention being forced to get the starter set even if you don't -ever- intend to use those three ships and only need the accessories and damage decks.

Seriously, man, stop being so protective of FFG, they can make bad choices too and criticizing them for those is alright, because they may realize that people aren't too fond of that and decide to correct themselves.

At least try to understand my point.

Then again there still are people who defend Games Workshop, so why do I bother with forums...

I understand that you believe these lists to require one to purchase "unnecessary" models, ... but that doesn't make it a bad business model. I would say, rather, that it's a fantastic business model... so long as people are willing to drop the coin to acquire the cards they want, FFG wins. Period.

I do not now, nor do I ever, intend to play in tournaments. I buy the models because I love the look and it's an easy-to-learn and intuitive game my son loves to play. If we get a number of cards we like, we use them... if not, then their rarity makes them all the more interesting. But, as I mentioned previously, I've never felt compelled to build a list for a competitive tournament. Not my scene.

Same for a lot of miniature wargame like games.

All those other games have other ways to get you to keep buying stuff. They all have some sort of gimmick to keep getting your money.

The upgrade cards is FFG's, it is only different in how it works, not in what the purpose is.

This is my view here. This is a money making business, and these companies wouldn't be manufacturing these games if they didn't make money.

I'm going with games in general, not just wargames:

Magic is what, $15 per draft event at its cheapest? Up to considerably more expensive if you want to play in competitive constructed deck events.

FFG LCGs cost $15 per month, with a $40-$80 (depending on if you want enough copies of all the core set cards) initial investment and then the odd $30 deluxe expansion.

Warhammer has outrageous base prices. To get into the game you need a tape measure, the rule book (since it isn't free), and dice. Then you can buy into a specific army by buying its codex. Expect to pay over $400 for the models to play in midsized point format games (1500), and then the time and expense to build and paint those models. And that is no flexibility in list building either. Thanks to WYSIWYG, those models are those specific models with those specific upgrades. You bought a $60 vehicle and mounted some specific options on it? Well if you want to field that same vehicle with other options you need to buy a new $60 kit and construct it the other way (people can get around this to more or less extent by magnetizing things). Then every so many years a new edition of the rules, or your codex are published and ocmpletely change the game. What is good is no longer good, and you need to buy new models to put the new or better options into your list, or you need to buy up the new models they release for your army. Or you need to buy a massive new Warlord model to stay competitive, or need to buy a stronghold model, and the new rule books that cover those...

X-Wing so far has been the lowest cost of any competitive game I have thus played. Despite what one other poster mentioned for the prices of constructing specific competitive lists from scratch. Yeah, it may be $100-$200 to make that list, and you are getting a lot of "useless" models, but you also have a lot of options for future list building as far as ships and upgrades with that purchase. I find that for about $100 per wave (so about $200 per year) I can stay perfectly competitive in the game. Sure I may not be able to build a very specific fringe build, but I certainly would be able to put together something that will do well at any major tournament. If you double that to $200 per wave or $400 per year, you can actually get enough ships/upgrades to make virtually every list for every faction.

I can't speak much about Armada yet, since it is so new. It seems like it will follow the X-Wing model, and will be slightly more expensive. The individual components are considerably more than X-Wing, but you generally need fewer of things in that game, so I think they'll be a lot closer in price than some people think.

Apologies, I actually meant a printed "Copy" of the card.

If someone won't buy the stuff that is needed to play the list they want, then they shouldn't play that list. This is a hobby and luxury pastime, the "I can't afford it" doesn't fly here. As such I expect everyone to play by the same rules, what ever those happen to be.

Most games don't allow people to use proxies... It's not like you can go to a MtG tournament with a bunch of photocopies, or play in a Warmachine tournament with proxies... Why should FFG games be any different?

Well, while you put it rather harshly, I actually share that point. Wargaming is expensive in general, and just like with video games, I think that if you can't afford it you shouldn't pirate/steal/play it. Either do it properly or don't do it at all, that's my opinion and I expect that quite a few people will disagree.

I understand that you believe these lists to require one to purchase "unnecessary" models, ... but that doesn't make it a bad business model. I would say, rather, that it's a fantastic business model... so long as people are willing to drop the coin to acquire the cards they want, FFG wins. Period.

I do not now, nor do I ever, intend to play in tournaments. I buy the models because I love the look and it's an easy-to-learn and intuitive game my son loves to play. If we get a number of cards we like, we use them... if not, then their rarity makes them all the more interesting. But, as I mentioned previously, I've never felt compelled to build a list for a competitive tournament. Not my scene.

From customer's perspective it is a terrible business model because it forces you to pay for all the other things just to get one you need. Of course it's perfect for the company - people pay full price just to get one thing from the 15 element box, but tell me, is it really that hard to see how it's bad for pretty much everyone else?

See, the rest of your comment is totally understandable and perfectly okay, but I can't help but ask... what is the point of your post here? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all up for freedom of speech and all that, but from what you said you would neither lose nor benefit from FFG deciding to start selling card packs because you're not interested in having those particular cards. Although I would argue with that, because you could benefit from the ability to get the cards in a more customer-friendly way because that would add lots of options for having fun with the rest of your cards.

And if you're indifferent and basically are saying that you don't care about those other cards, could you try putting yourself in place of other players and think "would I rather be able to buy a card that turns my favourite ship, which is now meh/terrible into something competitive and nice in a reasonable way, or would I prefer having to buy another ship I am totally uninterested for and I will pay for everything else in the box just to get it"? Hell, imagine playing with a friend who bought all the ships to make a top tier, tournament-winning list while you're flying some fun collection casual list which is very likely to lose every game unless your opponent makes terrible mistakes or the dice decide to favour you.

It's not really that hard to understand the point here. It's literally like this "Oh, you want to field the TIE Advanced and you want it to be competitive... well... you have to buy the 100$ Raider to get the fix for it... there's no other wayyy..." and it's not just TIE Advanced, it also works with all the upgrade cards that are almost required for competitive play.

Makes me think of this:

X-Wing so far has been the lowest cost of any competitive game I have thus played. Despite what one other poster mentioned for the prices of constructing specific competitive lists from scratch. Yeah, it may be $100-$200 to make that list, and you are getting a lot of "useless" models, but you also have a lot of options for future list building as far as ships and upgrades with that purchase. I find that for about $100 per wave (so about $200 per year) I can stay perfectly competitive in the game. Sure I may not be able to build a very specific fringe build, but I certainly would be able to put together something that will do well at any major tournament. If you double that to $200 per wave or $400 per year, you can actually get enough ships/upgrades to make virtually every list for every faction.

I have a few gripes with what you said there - what about those interested in playing only one faction? Scums? Rebels? Opportunist? Predator? Imagine a player on a budget who has to save up for everything. He wants to be able to keep up with his friends and play competitively. God forbid he wants to play Scums, but what happens now? He has to buy imperial/rebel models just to make his models stand up to his friends' lists, but the thought of that makes him feel sick, because he is not interested in playing that faction. But he would be more likely to buy a card pack that would give him all the stuff he needs for his ships even if it meant spending some more money. Sure, he pays for it in a bundle with other cards, but he's more likely to use them in the future than that he will use an imperial ship.

What I am trying to say is that not everyone intends to play all factions and not everyone intends to spend so much on this game and, ultimately, an easier access to those cards would benefit every single player. And FFG could still charge handsome money for such option, just give people a way of getting them like that.

Now before someone accuses me of being too subjective here, I actually am one of those people who buy everything, especially that I share the view that you either do it properly or don't do it at all, but if I will have to buy 2 more Raiders just to be able to field 3 competitive TIE Advanced starfighters (and God forbid those make it into tournament meta), I will be very angry. Sure, I don't have to play that list, but they should make it easier for people who want to do that.

P.s. - sorry for the massive multi-post quote, but I really wanted to comment on it all and doing it in separate posts would only clutter the thread further.

I hope you realize that if FFG does ever offer card packs that you will see an increase in the price of the ships themselves. Less expensive for some will likely mean more expensive for others, particularly those that play both sides and buy varied collections.

Additionally looking at those posted lists and saying an upgrade in them that is from a ship not in the lost and taking that to mean a useless purchase is flawed reasoning. Unless you ate buying from a faction you don't play, in all but the most extreme examples, that ship isn't useless. It just isn't being used on that list. The fact that part of it is just means you are getting more value from the expansion as opposed to just what you can get from the model.

Now before someone accuses me of being too subjective here, I actually am one of those people who buy everything, especially that I share the view that you either do it properly or don't do it at all, but if I will have to buy 2 more Raiders just to be able to field 3 competitive TIE Advanced starfighters (and God forbid those make it into tournament meta), I will be very angry. Sure, I don't have to play that list, but they should make it easier for people who want to do that.

The Raider comes with four copies of the X1 title, so you'll only need three copies of the Raider if you need to field 12 TIE Advanced.

Great to know people get angry without actually knowing if they should be or not.

Either do it properly or don't do it at all, that's my opinion and I expect that quite a few people will disagree.

I don't have a problem with people using proxies or even just printing out a list if they're going to play a friendly game at home. But I do think that if you're going to get involved in tournaments you should be willing to pay the price for that.

But there is a point of making due with what you have. Sure C-3PO is nice to have on a Fat Han, but it's not required to make a defensive YT-1300 list, that flies a lot like the classic Fat Han. So the idea that you have to buy a CR-90 for 3PO isn't really true.

I think that so far Armada is looking like there will be few upgrades you need a lot of, upgrades that you simply must have 1 for each ship or else your list will suck.

From customer's perspective it is a terrible business model because it forces you to pay for all the other things just to get one you need.

There are things that they do that aren't really customer friendly, but they're getting better about it. Autothrusters are quite nice on Interceptors, but you don't need to buy 4 Starvipers to get enough of them, because there's 2 per expansion. It's also IMO not at all unfair for them to include useful upgrades in a ship that actually can make good use of it, even if other ships can use it as well.

ultimately, an easier access to those cards would benefit every single player. And FFG could still charge handsome money for such option, just give people a way of getting them like that.

Sure and I'd like to see them release card packs. But they've said a number of times that doing so doesn't make sense for them financially. Having them start to release card packs, but that leads to the game being discontinued because it's no longer profitable is not good for anyone.

So while it would be nice, and I don't think it would lead to bankruptcy on their part, FFG had to balance what's best for the bottom line vs what is best for their customers.

if I will have to buy 2 more Raiders just to be able to field 3 competitive TIE Advanced starfighters (and God forbid those make it into tournament meta), I will be very angry.

I expect X1 Tie Advanced to become a big part of the Meta after the Raider is released, the numbers seem to make it a great ship. But the good news is that the Raider comes with 4 copies of each so there is no reason to buy more then one of them... Unless you wanted to play a 6+ Epic Tie Advanced list.

Hi Klerych.

Thanks for the response to my points.

I understand where you're coming from... you want to be able to compete in tournaments with a reasonable chance of success, so you're a little bent that FFG isn't providing you with the opportunity to purchase the cards without spending additional coin to buy another model you don't want. I really do get it. And I'm not arguing that point.

My point is that FFG may make their money selling the models themselves. Sure, their production costs for a P&P product is certainly lower, but their profit margin could be much greater when you're buying the model, flight stand, cards, etc. If that's the case, then it's in FFG's best interest to sell the models. If you're only interested in purchasing cards, they won't sell models.

My other point was that the tournament crowd is not the only crowd. You may be interested in purchasing a set of cards, but only those requiring a non-proxy would be willing to do so. I'll be the first to admit that I have no clue as to how many tournament vs. non-tournament players... but as I can safely assume that not everyone plays competitively, providing a card pack that may fill a niche market may not be in FFG's best interest.

That is why I responded to your post.

The Raider comes with four copies of the X1 title, so you'll only need three copies of the Raider if you need to field 12 TIE Advanced.

Well, that raider example was out of the blue and not meant to be actual argument, just wanted to present the idea. I'm extremely happy that it comes with 4 cards, but I still believe there should be some easier way to obtain those cards than getting a 100$ model only meant for epic play. (edit: even though I really love the ship and am going to buy it even before the LGS owner puts it on the shelf, haha!)

Either do it properly or don't do it at all, that's my opinion and I expect that quite a few people will disagree.

I don't have a problem with people using proxies or even just printing out a list if they're going to play a friendly game at home. But I do think that if you're going to get involved in tournaments you should be willing to pay the price for that.

But there is a point of making due with what you have. Sure C-3PO is nice to have on a Fat Han, but it's not required to make a defensive YT-1300 list, that flies a lot like the classic Fat Han. So the idea that you have to buy a CR-90 for 3PO isn't really true.

I think that so far Armada is looking like there will be few upgrades you need a lot of, upgrades that you simply must have 1 for each ship or else your list will suck.

From customer's perspective it is a terrible business model because it forces you to pay for all the other things just to get one you need.

There are things that they do that aren't really customer friendly, but they're getting better about it. Autothrusters are quite nice on Interceptors, but you don't need to buy 4 Starvipers to get enough of them, because there's 2 per expansion. It's also IMO not at all unfair for them to include useful upgrades in a ship that actually can make good use of it, even if other ships can use it as well.

ultimately, an easier access to those cards would benefit every single player. And FFG could still charge handsome money for such option, just give people a way of getting them like that.

Sure and I'd like to see them release card packs. But they've said a number of times that doing so doesn't make sense for them financially. Having them start to release card packs, but that leads to the game being discontinued because it's no longer profitable is not good for anyone.

So while it would be nice, and I don't think it would lead to bankruptcy on their part, FFG had to balance what's best for the bottom line vs what is best for their customers.

if I will have to buy 2 more Raiders just to be able to field 3 competitive TIE Advanced starfighters (and God forbid those make it into tournament meta), I will be very angry.

I expect X1 Tie Advanced to become a big part of the Meta after the Raider is released, the numbers seem to make it a great ship. But the good news is that the Raider comes with 4 copies of each so there is no reason to buy more then one of them... Unless you wanted to play a 6+ Epic Tie Advanced list.

Well, the card pack is just a possible fix for that situation. It'd be much better if every faction had a ship with one of those upgrade cards. That would be a nice compromise between having us buy opposite faction ships we aren't interested in and losing fancy business model that gives them high profits, because you could get all the cards while still staying in-faction, although it's just more of a "realistic" and "okay" possibility, rather than the best we could think of.

Just remember that the more people expect, the more the company has to provide to meet the expectations, especially if they aren't too unreasonable after all!

Hi Klerych.

Thanks for the response to my points.

I understand where you're coming from... you want to be able to compete in tournaments with a reasonable chance of success, so you're a little bent that FFG isn't providing you with the opportunity to purchase the cards without spending additional coin to buy another model you don't want. I really do get it. And I'm not arguing that point.

My point is that FFG may make their money selling the models themselves. Sure, their production costs for a P&P product is certainly lower, but their profit margin could be much greater when you're buying the model, flight stand, cards, etc. If that's the case, then it's in FFG's best interest to sell the models. If you're only interested in purchasing cards, they won't sell models.

My other point was that the tournament crowd is not the only crowd. You may be interested in purchasing a set of cards, but only those requiring a non-proxy would be willing to do so. I'll be the first to admit that I have no clue as to how many tournament vs. non-tournament players... but as I can safely assume that not everyone plays competitively, providing a card pack that may fill a niche market may not be in FFG's best interest.

That is why I responded to your post.

I get your point entirely, don't worry, mate. My opinion may be a bit skewed because all the store events here are always very strict about stuff like that because they ultimately lead to regional/country championships and/or leagues, so it's pretty much expected that everyone has proper stuff, and in my city (and I presume it's similar in the rest of the country) participating in store tournaments is something almost everyone does, be it in Magic: The Gathering, Warhammers or X-Wing, so there's no real difference between casual play and competitive mindset although ultimately I believe that there's nothing wrong with that - it really sounds like enforcing 100% legal, non-proxied stuff rules is how it ultimately should be outside of "hey, I want to try [x] list but I don't have [y] card, let's see if it would work before I buy stuff!".

I hope you realize that if FFG does ever offer card packs that you will see an increase in the price of the ships themselves. Less expensive for some will likely mean more expensive for others, particularly those that play both sides and buy varied collections.

Additionally looking at those posted lists and saying an upgrade in them that is from a ship not in the lost and taking that to mean a useless purchase is flawed reasoning. Unless you ate buying from a faction you don't play, in all but the most extreme examples, that ship isn't useless. It just isn't being used on that list. The fact that part of it is just means you are getting more value from the expansion as opposed to just what you can get from the model.

lol. based on what proof? your word of the holy truth?

i'm willing to bet against you and state that if they released card packs, they'd see an increase in sales because they'd grab all the people holding off from spending a ton of money on their product, to spending a few hundred to acquire what they want

it would also mean that they'd have product on the shelves of stores more often to allow new players to jump in that maybe have never heard of the game before. you can't sell product to the masses if you can't keep it in stock because all the core players buy out their product all the time

personally if this was my company i'd feel a lot better about having a much larger player base of happy customers that have more money to spend, than a smaller group that are spending all their money just to stay competitive

it's healthier for the game in the long run to have more people playing and easier access to the things they want

lol. based on what proof? your word of the holy truth?

i'm willing to bet against you and state that if they released card packs, they'd see an increase in sales because they'd grab all the people holding off from spending a ton of money on their product, to spending a few hundred to acquire what they want

it would also mean that they'd have product on the shelves of stores more often to allow new players to jump in that maybe have never heard of the game before. you can't sell product to the masses if you can't keep it in stock because all the core players buy out their product all the time

personally if this was my company i'd feel a lot better about having a much larger player base of happy customers that have more money to spend, than a smaller group that are spending all their money just to stay competitive

it's healthier for the game in the long run to have more people playing and easier access to the things they want

I'm sorry, but what do you base this assertion on? FFG is clearly making money hand over fist, so I don't think that there's this massive community of disenfranchised players waiting for a holy grail of card packs. After all, FFG has their sales numbers to back up their strategy, and there is only a minority of a minority who appear to disagree with it.

lol. based on what proof? your word of the holy truth?

i'm willing to bet against you and state that if they released card packs, they'd see an increase in sales because they'd grab all the people holding off from spending a ton of money on their product, to spending a few hundred to acquire what they want

it would also mean that they'd have product on the shelves of stores more often to allow new players to jump in that maybe have never heard of the game before. you can't sell product to the masses if you can't keep it in stock because all the core players buy out their product all the time

personally if this was my company i'd feel a lot better about having a much larger player base of happy customers that have more money to spend, than a smaller group that are spending all their money just to stay competitive

it's healthier for the game in the long run to have more people playing and easier access to the things they want

I'm sorry, but what do you base this assertion on? FFG is clearly making money hand over fist, so I don't think that there's this massive community of disenfranchised players waiting for a holy grail of card packs. After all, FFG has their sales numbers to back up their strategy, and there is only a minority of a minority who appear to disagree with it.

just my hunch.

I for one would be one of those customers that's buying the same amount of ships i was going to anyways, yet increasing sales because i'd also buy the card packs to get more stuff to tinker with

It would also mean i'd jump in to the competitive play. The larger amount of people playing in the competitive field will only help the game grow and last for years to come with a strong player base

what i CAN tell you is that they aren't going to get any more money out of me in the form of buying needless amounts of ships just to acquire more cards. and i'm clearly not the only one that thinks like this

also you'd be surprised at how many people are looking at this game and thinking, looks good but too expensive, so NOPE, NOPE, NOPE! which is exactly how i feel about Imperial Assault. i'd love to play it but the costs to get into it are a big NOPE, NOPE, NOPE for me

*edit* oh did i mention that less plastic sitting around doing nothing but collecting dust is also a good thing to note? yep. i'd much rather make use of said plastic rather than filling up another shelf in my display case with ships that are doing nothing but collecting dust, all for the sake of "viewing purposes"

I understand that you believe these lists to require one to purchase "unnecessary" models, ... but that doesn't make it a bad business model. I would say, rather, that it's a fantastic business model... so long as people are willing to drop the coin to acquire the cards they want, FFG wins. Period.

I do not now, nor do I ever, intend to play in tournaments. I buy the models because I love the look and it's an easy-to-learn and intuitive game my son loves to play. If we get a number of cards we like, we use them... if not, then their rarity makes them all the more interesting. But, as I mentioned previously, I've never felt compelled to build a list for a competitive tournament. Not my scene.

I disagree with the fantasticness of this business model, even from FFGs point of view. Like you said, having original upgrade cards is only really mandatory for official tournaments. So the quantity of people "dropping the coin" to get the cards they want is actually not that big. However, there is a large group of people who would prefer original cards over home-made ones any day, for a reasonable pricing. You just reach a broader market, instead of focussing on the tournament-only niche. In addition, I would assume that the margin on card decks could be way more high than that on complete boxes. Production costs per card are quite negligible, and you could still sell an "upgrade deck" including for example one add copy of all core set upgrade cards for at least 10 - 15 USD. Thats what, 18 printed cards for ten dollars? With a more complex marketing, you could release upgrade slot specific decks after some waves, or detach the upgrade cards completely from the boxes and release deck specific upgrades.. hell, go all out and release some unique card designs which are only found in every pack now and then! PS FFG, msg me! ;-)