I was reading through this thread and I thought I should chime in. I've been playing wargames for a really long time but I never touched X-Wing, so I'm totally new to this style of game. I'm honestly confused and a little irritated that I need to have all the copies of the cards for a list. I wasn't planning on getting super competitive with the game, but I know at one point I'd like to do a tournament or two. The fact that I might need to buy extra models just so I can have enough upgrade cards is... really weird to me. I mean they're just cards. The $40 price tag on a victory is very reasonable for a nice mini, cards and dials, but $40 for an engine techs card? I probably won't be able to get into a full sized gaming group, I was just planning to play with a couple friends, so it looks like I basically can't play in tournaments without forking out a lot of extra money that I don't really have set aside for the game. Kinda depressing really.

But I still have my fingers crossed for not needing multiple purchases either.

I won't be making any, other than for the sake of the ship itself. I'll get a 2nd VSD, Neb B and CR-90 for example, but mostly because I want 2 of those ships. But I'll only be getting one Gladiator or AF. I'll get 2 Raiders because I think I'll want 2, but only one ISD, and one each of the MonCals.

Playing around with the fleet builder, it seems that points are fairly tight even in a 300 point game.

An Assault Frigate MK2 A, 1 Neb B Escort, 2 CR-90 B's, 2 generic X's, 1 generic B-Wing leaves 19 points for upgrades.

Or Imperial side... 1 VSD I, 1 VSD II, 1 Gladiator II, 2 bombers and an interceptor leaves you 13 points for upgrades.

It seems to me that so far Armada is very much a matter of plastic > cardboard. So you may not have much need for a ton of upgrades once we get access to more ships.

But I still have my fingers crossed for not needing multiple purchases either.

I won't be making any, other than for the sake of the ship itself. I'll get a 2nd VSD, Neb B and CR-90 for example, but mostly because I want 2 of those ships. But I'll only be getting one Gladiator or AF. I'll get 2 Raiders because I think I'll want 2, but only one ISD, and one each of the MonCals.

Playing around with the fleet builder, it seems that points are fairly tight even in a 300 point game.

An Assault Frigate MK2 A, 1 Neb B Escort, 2 CR-90 B's, 2 generic X's, 1 generic B-Wing leaves 19 points for upgrades.

Or Imperial side... 1 VSD I, 1 VSD II, 1 Gladiator II, 2 bombers and an interceptor leaves you 13 points for upgrades.

It seems to me that so far Armada is very much a matter of plastic > cardboard. So you may not have much need for a ton of upgrades once we get access to more ships.

I was thinking, if I get into the game, that I would buy one of each; that is to say one core and one of each expansion. That would give me two Victory SD, CR-90 and Neb B and double some fighters but everything else one. I think that is about what you are saying.

I see you're getting two imperial bombers and I know some has said 2 Gladiators. Other than looks why are you getting two bombers and a second Raider, if I may ask.

On a separate note:

Locally I was a big push for X-Wing and ended up getting several people and one LGS more into X-Wing. I tend to be a completionist and purchase for both sides; it helps to promote a game when you have everything needed to play. This time however I'm approaching the game more slowly. Between the painting and upgrades which are sure to follow.... more of a wait and see which is too bad for my area unless someone else jumps in to be the band leader. I'm disappointed about the painting of the CR-90 and Neb B. I haven't decided anything yet; but the the detail (quality and pre-paint quality) was/is a big draw for me. Worst case is I'll get one of the Victory and Imperial Star Destroyer and set them in my office. But I like fleet games so this is a draw.

We'll see and I appreciate your input.

People have already started selling the single cards for cheap.

Honestly reading all the concerns and all I can think about is that if you really need a card and don't want to buy the ships go to eBay and do a search. I have done this with X-Wing and it works.

I think that is about what you are saying.

Yeah I think we're doing the same thing.

Other than looks why are you getting two bombers and a second Raider, if I may ask.

The fighter pack comes with 2 of each squad type, 2 bombers, 2 interceptors, 2 advanced and 2 more fighters. I'm not sure if 2 bombers and an interceptor is the right choice. Was sorta picking stuff at semi-random.

The reason for the 2nd raider, is because a 2nd one might be useful. I'm going to guess it's about the same points as the CR-90, and 2 of them with a ISD may be a nice core part of a list. I don't know that I'm getting a 2nd one, but it would be one of the ships I'd be open to more than one of.

On the issue of needing the cards for every model in a tournament... That is if they don't begin to take a pro-consumer approach...

Then FFG **** well better keep models in constant stock! I STILL can't find tie interceptors in physical stock anywhere...

If they're going to hold us to this absurd rule, then they need to be held accountable for providing access to the actual cards... And they're inability to keep their products accessible is THEIR fault not mine.

do note that "tournament" only means "FFG sponsored tournament" when it comes to card requirements (anal T.O's pending). Assuming we have X-wing's competitive structure, that means Store Championships and upwards will require cards.

The distribution of upgrade cards is my least favorite aspect of FFG (they gotta have a fault somewhere ) but again, they seemed to have learned a great deal from X-wing and the inclusion of relevant (and powerful) ship-specific titles that come with the expansions (not to mention powerful, faction-specific upgrades such as officers and especially commanders) are a pretty good step in the right direction.

The only time the upgrade card allocation is an issue is when you have to buy a expansion outside of your chosen faction or the standard format.

Hopefully FFG avoids that in Armada by making all generics available somewhere in each factions expansions.

The upgrade cards, outside of those cases, add alot if value to the products. Not only are you buying the model for it's use but you are getting ways to customize it and other ships.

The only time the upgrade card allocation is an issue is when you have to buy a expansion outside of your chosen faction or the standard format.

Hopefully FFG avoids that in Armada by making all generics available somewhere in each factions expansions.

The upgrade cards, outside of those cases, add alot if value to the products. Not only are you buying the model for it's use but you are getting ways to customize it and other ships.

Close but not entirely true. Sometimes even though you got the card you needed you didn't get as many as you wanted to play. Engine Upgrade and Proximity Mines come to mind.

engine upgrade is not the best example for this, as i'm yet to see a competitive list that runs more than 1 or 2 engine upgrades. and now that scum is out prox mines aren't so hard to come by. but i understand your point

good thread of discussion and i fall to the side of wishing that FFG would just release card packs of upgrade cards separately. As you can see in my signature below i have a whole lot of X-wing stuff and as time is going on with more stuff releasing i'm finding more and more that i've wasted a lot of money on ships that are for the most part just collecting dust. Especially on the rebel side of things as my entire rebel fleet is literally sitting in my display case behind me, but that's mainly because i've specialized in playing Empire and 99 times out of 100; that's the faction i'll go to. I've actually downsized a good number of my rebel ships just to get some money back. I also wish they would start releasing card packs of unique pilots.

in a game as expensive as Armada i'm less likely to buy multiples of ships unless i really like them and not at all likely to buy them for upgrade cards just to have them. and it's a shame really, because i know my competitive nature will want me to play this game competitively like i do with X-wing, but at the costs alone to have as many options open as possible to be on the competitive level i will never see the value and likely never make my money worth it in the long run

X-wing for me has basically hit a peak point. i'm less likely to buy more ships and a lot more skeptical to hold off and wait to see what the new ships can do before i invest where as before i used to blindly buy enough to field 100 points of every ship spammed. basically once wave 4 came along i slowed down big time

i'm taking a big step back when it comes to Armada and buying only one of each ship, maybe even none any given ship if wave 3 doesn't look promising enough to at least have 1 of each. I also don't recommend a secondary core set for those that are thinking about the investment. The only reason i've bought a second one is that i'd like my wife to play with our local group without having to borrow dice, rulers, damage deck, etc. as she's less interested in investing in this game but still interested in playing it

If FFG would release upgrade cards in packs for Armada i would be more than happy to fully invest in the ships i want and the upgrades i need to fully embrace the future competitive scene of this game, but as it currently stands. it's going to be a casual game

good thread of discussion and i fall to the side of wishing that FFG would just release card packs of upgrade cards separately.

Exactly my thoughts on this, for a couple of reasons. First, to me the cards are a more or less fragile part of the game, and sooner or later some will vanish/deteriorate due to the usual wear and tear, or the occasional "oops my coffee" accident. After all its just cardboard, and I would appreciate an easy way of replacing them if I need to, for an affordable price tag. Second, even though I am most likely not attending any official tournaments, I would prefer original cards over my average quality prints any day - I also do feel that FFG should benefit from me using the same upgrades multiple time in a monetary way, not just the 29,99$ way for each copy of a given card. And lastly, detaching the upgrade cards from specific ships would also allow for in-between wave releases of additional upgrade cards. FFG could just release an additional card pack now and then, creating a small tactical addition without having to release a complete wave of things. Also, it would be a nice way to ease the pain for all of us waiting for the next wave(s) ;-)

So does each ship have to have its each version of an upgrade card and why?

Like if I want gunnery team on 2 ships, cant a piece of paper that says gunnery team or a photo copy do the trick.

I have friends who are hesitant to play the game because they fear that if they want to be the most competitive they may have to buy a $40 ship for one or 2 upgrade cards.

I could see at regionals and higher up where proxies may not be allowed but for LGS events I personally don't see an issue with it.

Thoughts?

Print Proxies on nice thick cardboard with a good laser printer in a local copy store. If someone tells you that you should pay 40$ for more copies of the same card smile at him and repeatedly touch your right forehead with your right index finger.

If you print the card and do it double sided its wise to print the black outer frame not in card shape (with round edges) but as a full square. you can easier cut that out without leaving white flesh at the corners. i use nail scissors for such corners which are a bit bended. that helps.

I suggest using card sleeves for original and proxy card which will lessen the difference in paper used for printing and stability. UltraPro for the small and medium sized cards and the FFG orange sleeves for the large cards are best imo. i couldnt find tarot size by ultra pro anywhere else i would have bought them. The medium ultrapro sleeves have this holografic circle on it which bothers some people but it doesnt cover anything on the fighter cards and i still think that ultra pro has the best quality for the price among sleeves. do not buy mayday sleeves they come in different length each pack which is extremly annoying if you want to stack different sizes and they are to thin with occasional unclean cuts/flesh.

ultra pro #82662 41mmx63mm mini american; blue -> upgrades and damage cards

ultra pro #82914 56mmx87mm standard american; yellow -> fighter and mission cards

FFG FFS66 70mmx120mm tarot board game size; orange -> ship cards

it would be nice if someone writes a programm which allows to create double side printable pdfs from a selection of cards. you know theese fine tuning printer settings aren`t handable even with a phd in printer engineering.

So does each ship have to have its each version of an upgrade card and why?

Like if I want gunnery team on 2 ships, cant a piece of paper that says gunnery team or a photo copy do the trick.

I have friends who are hesitant to play the game because they fear that if they want to be the most competitive they may have to buy a $40 ship for one or 2 upgrade cards.

I could see at regionals and higher up where proxies may not be allowed but for LGS events I personally don't see an issue with it.

Thoughts?

Print Proxies on nice thick cardboard with a good laser printer in a local copy store. If someone tells you that you should pay 40$ for more copies of the same card smile at him and repeatedly touch your right forehead with your right index finger.

If you print the card and do it double sided its wise to print the black outer frame not in card shape (with round edges) but as a full square. you can easier cut that out without leaving white flesh at the corners. i use nail scissors for such corners which are a bit bended. that helps.

I suggest using card sleeves for original and proxy card which will lessen the difference in paper used for printing and stability. UltraPro for the small and medium sized cards and the FFG orange sleeves for the large cards are best imo. i couldnt find tarot size by ultra pro anywhere else i would have bought them. The medium ultrapro sleeves have this holografic circle on it which bothers some people but it doesnt cover anything on the fighter cards and i still think that ultra pro has the best quality for the price among sleeves. do not buy mayday sleeves they come in different length each pack which is extremly annoying if you want to stack different sizes and they are to thin with occasional unclean cuts/flesh.

ultra pro #82662 41mmx63mm mini american; blue -> upgrades and damage cards

ultra pro #82914 56mmx87mm standard american; yellow -> fighter and mission cards

FFG FFS66 70mmx120mm tarot board game size; orange -> ship cards

it would be nice if someone writes a programm which allows to create double side printable pdfs from a selection of cards. you know theese fine tuning printer settings aren`t handable even with a phd in printer engineering.

Main issue here is that you have to go an extra mile and print yourself cards that you need and which are still illegal on tournaments, no matter how pretty you print them. And you even spend money on that!

See, things like this or buying singles or trading are just workarounds - solutions to a problem that shouldn't happen in the first place and that should be focused upon, rather than accepting it as granted and just making do with it.

It's even worse* if the LGS tournaments follow FFG rules on that. And I marked worse because it would be no problem if there was a more reasonable way to provide cards through official channels than attaching a lump of pre-painted plastic to them. I mean... of course I'd rather have original, 100% officially legal set of cards, but I don't want to be faced with choice between getting a whole new ship for it or having to trade with players for singles instead of, say, being able to pay 20$ for a big card pack like the megadecks for WarZone: Resurrection as an alternative to buying miniature sets to get cards contained in their boxes.

So does each ship have to have its each version of an upgrade card and why?

Like if I want gunnery team on 2 ships, cant a piece of paper that says gunnery team or a photo copy do the trick.

I have friends who are hesitant to play the game because they fear that if they want to be the most competitive they may have to buy a $40 ship for one or 2 upgrade cards.

I could see at regionals and higher up where proxies may not be allowed but for LGS events I personally don't see an issue with it.

Thoughts?

Print Proxies on nice thick cardboard with a good laser printer in a local copy store. If someone tells you that you should pay 40$ for more copies of the same card smile at him and repeatedly touch your right forehead with your right index finger.

If you print the card and do it double sided its wise to print the black outer frame not in card shape (with round edges) but as a full square. you can easier cut that out without leaving white flesh at the corners. i use nail scissors for such corners which are a bit bended. that helps.

I suggest using card sleeves for original and proxy card which will lessen the difference in paper used for printing and stability. UltraPro for the small and medium sized cards and the FFG orange sleeves for the large cards are best imo. i couldnt find tarot size by ultra pro anywhere else i would have bought them. The medium ultrapro sleeves have this holografic circle on it which bothers some people but it doesnt cover anything on the fighter cards and i still think that ultra pro has the best quality for the price among sleeves. do not buy mayday sleeves they come in different length each pack which is extremly annoying if you want to stack different sizes and they are to thin with occasional unclean cuts/flesh.

ultra pro #82662 41mmx63mm mini american; blue -> upgrades and damage cards

ultra pro #82914 56mmx87mm standard american; yellow -> fighter and mission cards

FFG FFS66 70mmx120mm tarot board game size; orange -> ship cards

it would be nice if someone writes a programm which allows to create double side printable pdfs from a selection of cards. you know theese fine tuning printer settings aren`t handable even with a phd in printer engineering.

Main issue here is that you have to go an extra mile and print yourself cards that you need and which are still illegal on tournaments, no matter how pretty you print them. And you even spend money on that!

See, things like this or buying singles or trading are just workarounds - solutions to a problem that shouldn't happen in the first place and that should be focused upon, rather than accepting it as granted and just making do with it.

It's even worse* if the LGS tournaments follow FFG rules on that. And I marked worse because it would be no problem if there was a more reasonable way to provide cards through official channels than attaching a lump of pre-painted plastic to them. I mean... of course I'd rather have original, 100% officially legal set of cards, but I don't want to be faced with choice between getting a whole new ship for it or having to trade with players for singles instead of, say, being able to pay 20$ for a big card pack like the megadecks for WarZone: Resurrection as an alternative to buying miniature sets to get cards contained in their boxes.

You could give me your money and i give you this nice colored extremly high value glass perls in return.

There is no problem. Its just you and the guy you play with that define that they have a problem which they think to solve by giving money to a third party. Perfect for the third party and exactly what they told you to do. If you play a tournament at a retailer he is the 4th party who is interested in your money as well which is the only reason why he would come up with the "give me your money" "rule". There is the option to think no matter what the "rule" says.

You managed to establish the believe that you have to pay for the stuff in order to be able to play with it. Is it still legal if you stole the original stuff yourself? Thats kinda rediculous urges if you view that from a different perspective. It is about you and someone wanting to play a game.

The printed proxy cards are in no way unfair or cheating. They are not spiked nor stronger. It doesnt matter if you can tell them apart from originals as there is no hidden information (card deck) involved in the game rules. My description on how to do them to look nice was solely aimed at the aesthetics of it because thats some value of the game objects that some people like to have. exspecialy with this wargaming hobby of painting minis. Paying more money for an object doesnt increase its production value although apple suggests that. youve been indoctrinated.

in the case of magic the gathering we used to only play with proxies. if that is unfair if everyone has access to all cards then you should ask if it isnt stupid that the person who payed the most bucks gets the strongest decks. pay to win only helps the guy who sells it which is not you or the guy you play with. Also you might get the impression that it maybe was a bad idea to spend so much money on youre honestly bought products now that you see that i just proxy them and get the impression that this is not fair. I think its just the feeling strong value caused by the strong loss in terms of money but it doesnt have to do anything with the game itself. Pay to win. Its easier and cheaper to directly compare bank accounts and then play chess with proxied figures.

If someone doesnt want to play with me because he doesnt like my toys then, well ...

On the other hand ... forgett what i said and instead i highly suggest everyone (apart from me) should get all of the original products multiple times so that the whole thing sells a lot and they continue to produce content (which im interested in).

no offense ment, but hey - its realy you and your friends who make the rules of what you guys want to play. If you skip enforcing original products and the though of getting an advantage by your friend beeing not able to spend that much money you benefit the whole group of friends you play with vs. using unfair moneyterized advantages against your frieds with a laughing unknown third company party.

You could give me your money and i give you this nice colored extremly high value glass perls in return.

There is no problem. Its just you and the guy you play with that define that they have a problem which they think to solve by giving money to a third party. Perfect for the third party and exactly what they told you to do. If you play a tournament at a retailer he is the 4th party who is interested in your money as well which is the only reason why he would come up with the "give me your money" "rule". There is the option to think no matter what the "rule" says.

You managed to establish the believe that you have to pay for the stuff in order to be able to play with it. Is it still legal if you stole the original stuff yourself? Thats kinda rediculous urges if you view that from a different perspective. It is about you and someone wanting to play a game.

The printed proxy cards are in no way unfair or cheating. They are not spiked nor stronger. It doesnt matter if you can tell them apart from originals as there is no hidden information (card deck) involved in the game rules. My description on how to do them to look nice was solely aimed at the aesthetics of it because thats some value of the game objects that some people like to have. exspecialy with this wargaming hobby of painting minis. Paying more money for an object doesnt increase its production value although apple suggests that. youve been indoctrinated.

in the case of magic the gathering we used to only play with proxies. if that is unfair if everyone has access to all cards then you should ask if it isnt stupid that the person who payed the most bucks gets the strongest decks. pay to win only helps the guy who sells it which is not you or the guy you play with. Also you might get the impression that it maybe was a bad idea to spend so much money on youre honestly bought products now that you see that i just proxy them and get the impression that this is not fair. I think its just the feeling strong value caused by the strong loss in terms of money but it doesnt have to do anything with the game itself. Pay to win. Its easier and cheaper to directly compare bank accounts and then play chess with proxied figures.

If someone doesnt want to play with me because he doesnt like my toys then, well ...

On the other hand ... forgett what i said and instead i highly suggest everyone (apart from me) should get all of the original products multiple times so that the whole thing sells a lot and they continue to produce content (which im interested in).

no offense ment, but hey - its realy you and your friends who make the rules of what you guys want to play. If you skip enforcing original products and the though of getting an advantage by your friend beeing not able to spend that much money you benefit the whole group of friends you play with vs. using unfair moneyterized advantages against your frieds with a laughing unknown third company party.

I think you missed the point. He wasn't talking about friends, he was talking about tournaments and local tournaments. In which case, they are illegal cards even if they're no stronger than the original card. I'm sure you don't play with proxies at the tournaments. So basically... choose to play tournaments or don't... which he obviously wants to, but doesn't want to buy a bunch of plastic that he doesn't need to do so.

The point is neither friends or tournaments; though tournaments are of far more import.

The fact that your recommending going outside official channels to purchase products or make you own game pieces out of paper and cardboard rather than the official content from the manufacture is by its very use and definition an indication that something is broken or highly inefficient.

In other words by simply saying 'you can print your own' or 'buy them from eBay' you are agreeing this is an issue and suggesting a work around.

Basically what Ken and Chioxin said. I'm not condemning anyone who found a work around for that problem, but denying that there's a problem at all is a whole different animal in my opinion. I know I make it sound like it's more of a problem than it actually is, but bagatelizing it is imho worse.

In other words by simply saying 'you can print your own' or 'buy them from eBay' you are agreeing this is an issue and suggesting a work around.

Yes and no...

Is this an issue in X-Wing? Yes it is, but it's less of one now then it was. I know a number of people bought 3-4 Lambda shuttles just for the extra advanced sensors. Which now come in the E-Wing pack. Or PtL coming with A-Wings but now is in the Imperial Aces pack.

In Armada, and it's hard to say for sure right now with so few options. But it seems that like the early days of X-Wing plastic beats cardboard, and there just isn't a lot of room for upgrades in the fleets I've been putting together. Not enough to think "I must have 3 VSD's for the 3 upgrade X cards"

Each player doesnt feel to good about paying for the card alone if he doesnt need the plastic. On tournaments there are only such players. So if players would just organize in a friendly manner for tournaments there would be no such problem which is what i wanted to advocate. The host is in the minority and he is depending on your cash so he should provide a comfortable player friendly enviroment in his own interrest. If he doesnt i wanted to suggest to think about if you realy want to play pay to win with unfriendly people. If the answer is yes then thats an answer to the question of the OP. Still i thought it was more helpfull to discuss the surroundings.

AND ... whats even worse and the whole reason for at least my contribution to the topic is that wave one isnt released yet.

As long as I've played X-wing, and probably for the same amount of time I'll play Armada, I don't get this complaint. I had to borrow a ship or two and a stealth device once or twice, but never just to make a tourney list. (Why the hell anyone is looking for extra Engine Upgrades beyond the two that come in the iconic Falcon I'll never know either.) I don't play empire much. But I own just as much Imp stuff(maybe more counting large base ships and TIE fighters) as rebel never had a problem with it. I think about what I'm getting and it seems atrociously silly to think that I'm spending my fifteen to forty bucks on just one thing that comes in the package. I'm getting a whole new ship! I don't have to worry about prepping friends for tourneys since I can field almost any list on request, borrowing from their own ship pool on occasion for duplicates of large ships. If somebody forgot to throw their stuff in their trunk before coming down to the FLGS, got 'em covered. I can hang out at the FLGS on days off and run demos that feature the latest product or any ship on the product line upon request. And when I get the itch to break out of my groove and experiment I can field anything Imp for fun. Plus I can field Epic fleets. So I never feel like I'm spending my money just for a single component. I am grateful that they put the game in convienient 15$ or so increments though!

Moral: Don't do it for the card, do it for completion!

As long as I've played X-wing, and probably for the same amount of time I'll play Armada, I don't get this complaint. I had to borrow a ship or two and a stealth device once or twice, but never just to make a tourney list. (Why the hell anyone is looking for extra Engine Upgrades beyond the two that come in the iconic Falcon I'll never know either.) I don't play empire much. But I own just as much Imp stuff(maybe more counting large base ships and TIE fighters) as rebel never had a problem with it. I think about what I'm getting and it seems atrociously silly to think that I'm spending my fifteen to forty bucks on just one thing that comes in the package. I'm getting a whole new ship! I don't have to worry about prepping friends for tourneys since I can field almost any list on request, borrowing from their own ship pool on occasion for duplicates of large ships. If somebody forgot to throw their stuff in their trunk before coming down to the FLGS, got 'em covered. I can hang out at the FLGS on days off and run demos that feature the latest product or any ship on the product line upon request. And when I get the itch to break out of my groove and experiment I can field anything Imp for fun. Plus I can field Epic fleets. So I never feel like I'm spending my money just for a single component. I am grateful that they put the game in convienient 15$ or so increments though!

Moral: Don't do it for the card, do it for completion!

This.

On top of that, FFG has repeatedly said that they will not be doing card-only expansions for X-Wing, so there's no reason to think that they'll change their minds with Armada. If they do, great. If they don't, nothing's changed. Given X-Wing's popularity, it seems like most folks have come to terms with this.

On top of that, FFG has repeatedly said that they will not be doing card-only expansions for X-Wing, so there's no reason to think that they'll change their minds with Armada.

I still think it's a bit early to have this discussion. Until we have wave 1 and some sort of meta actually starts to form. It's hard to say how things will work.

But given the lists I've come up with so far, I just don't think upgrades are going to play such a big part of Armada that you'll need 2+ copies of many upgrades.

For example how many Expanded Hanger Bay's do you really need? Or Weapon Liaisons? In some cases it may be nice to have 2 or 3 of some upgrades, but will it really be needed for a list to be competitive?

On top of that, FFG has repeatedly said that they will not be doing card-only expansions for X-Wing, so there's no reason to think that they'll change their minds with Armada.

I still think it's a bit early to have this discussion. Until we have wave 1 and some sort of meta actually starts to form. It's hard to say how things will work.

But given the lists I've come up with so far, I just don't think upgrades are going to play such a big part of Armada that you'll need 2+ copies of many upgrades.

For example how many Expanded Hanger Bay's do you really need? Or Weapon Liaisons? In some cases it may be nice to have 2 or 3 of some upgrades, but will it really be needed for a list to be competitive?

You're probably right.

Moral: Don't do it for the card, do it for completion!

Not everyone is really there for completion... It's cool that you desire to do that, I have plenty of friends who really don't want to spend money on rebel stuff they don't want. Some have even said they won't get into the game because that's a thing.

Anyway, there's every reason to discuss this before wave 1 release, or 2, because it gives FFG a chance to hear the dissatisfaction that method inspires in their players and they can maybe do something about it now before it becomes a plague as it did for a number of people I use to play with in X-Wing miniatures. They tried to fix it in X-Wing, which is cool... but still it persists.

Only FFG knows if "folks have come to terms with it" ... none of us know the numbers. Yes, you see a lot of people playing, but FFG probably cares about "How many more people might be playing if."

Anyway, there's every reason to discuss this before wave 1 release, or 2, because it gives FFG a chance to hear the dissatisfaction that method inspires in their players and they can maybe do something about it now...

Wave 1 is already done and so is wave 2 for that matter, and they're already working on wave 3 now.

But the only reason to talk about it now, is based on the assumption that people will find themselves needing to buy 3 ISD's and 4 CR-90's just to get all the upgrade cards they need for competitive lists.

Seeing as we have no way of knowing if that's true or not, then there is little that can be logically discussed. It's like trying to discuss what the weather will be like next week.

Do we even know what cards will come with the CR-90 and Neb B expansion pack? I doubt those expansions will only come with 3 or 4 upgrade cards. Until we know that this is at best wild speculation about both what we'll need and what we'll have.