How many points is too many?

By nigeltastic, in X-Wing

I'm curious about opinions on how many points everyone is willing to invest in a single ship. I personally see no issue in having a single ship cost 49+ points, as long as it's a big threat. That probably leads to my propensity towards two ship lists and my lack of concern over the defender's point cost.

That said, I've seen many people shy away from that sort of point total on one ship, so I'm curious: how many points is too many for you personally in a single ship?

Let's see, the list that won worlds had a 61 point Han Solo. So, in the right hands, you can have a lot of points in one ship.

I think it depends on the ship.

For example a maxed out B-wing with one of the high cost named pilots is just too squishy and has too few defensive options to make the investment worthwhile.

But a Falcon or Outrider packing upgrades that give it 2-3 guaranteed evades a turn, good attack modification and 13 hit points is likely to give a pretty good ROI

I think you need to figure out how much damage you can put out and how much damage you can recieve. If you put half your list into one ship but can only throw 4 dice in attacks and 2 in evade then you might not want to run that when you could get 8 attack and 8 evade for the same cost. Once skill levels increase i think you can spend more on one ship if you can fly it properly.

Depends on how easy it is to kill. Expensive ships like Fat Han, Super Dash and Chiraneau work because they have ways to survive an onslaught. You don't want to be spending 50+ points on a glass cannon, you want to make sure you're creating a tank.

I think the answer is that you have to keep offense and defense reasonably balanced on a ship.

The principal lesson of the TIE Advanced is that there's such a thing as too much defense: if you can't deal a reasonable amount of damage, it doesn't matter how long you stick around. (And in a related point, it doesn't matter how tanky you are if there's no reason to shoot you.)

And it goes the other way, too. The principal lesson of the Alpha Squadron Pilot is that there's such a thing as too much offense: if the threat you pose drastically outstrips your durability, you rocket up the target-priority list and get blown away before you can make use of those guns.

Some of it is dependent on the metagame, too: Paul Heaver's Worlds list is extraordinarily defensive, but he could get away with it because the meta was narrow (so he could predict what he'd face) and featured mostly small lists (which de-emphasized the importance of reliable offense). In six months I don't think his Worlds list will be as strong, because it doesn't handle threats like BBBBZ or Warthogs very well.

So at the risk of repeating myself, I don't think there's a hard limit on the cost of a ship overall, but you want to make sure it doesn't tilt too far toward offense or defense. Keep them proportional to one another, and you're probably okay at any price.

That said, I've seen many people shy away from that sort of point total on one ship, so I'm curious: how many points is too many for you personally in a single ship?

101. If I could make a single competitive 100 point ship then that would be pretty awesome for MoV and victory conditions.

(Thankfully no such ship exists, Fat Falcons and Decimators top out in the 60's)

I'm curious about opinions on how many points everyone is willing to invest in a single ship. I personally see no issue in having a single ship cost 49+ points, as long as it's a big threat. That probably leads to my propensity towards two ship lists and my lack of concern over the defender's point cost.

From an MoV perspective, more points into 1 ship (or split nearly evenly among 2 ships) is always better, all else being equal. The trick is the all-else-being equal. A ship merely being more expensive does not make it better, it just means it costs more. You need to have a good platform to start to maintain cost effectiveness. So a tricked out YT-1300 (especially with C-3P0 which has been mathed out at being worth 5-10+ points) or Fat VT-49 are going to be a way more efficient use of points than your example of a tricked out Defender. (Sorry Defender defenders, but it's true! :P )

Depends on your play style. I have to justify every point spent above 12 per ship.

I think the answer is that you have to keep offense and defense reasonably balanced on a ship.

I will completely dissent with this point. I think it is more accurate to say that you want to keep the offense:defense ratio on all your ships within your squad to be roughly equal with each other.

In other words, do not mix glass cannons and tanks, because your opponent will kill the glass cannons first and thus remove most of your combat effectiveness.

Specifically:

The principal lesson of the TIE Advanced is that there's such a thing as too much defense: if you can't deal a reasonable amount of damage, it doesn't matter how long you stick around. (And in a related point, it doesn't matter how tanky you are if there's no reason to shoot you.)

The TIE Advanced is just a poor overall value. It's so far off the value curve that you don't even need to provide any other reason for it being such a poor ship. And to add insult to injury, it's not really even any more durable than the TIE Fighter for its cost.

And it goes the other way, too. The principal lesson of the Alpha Squadron Pilot is that there's such a thing as too much offense: if the threat you pose drastically outstrips your durability, you rocket up the target-priority list and get blown away before you can make use of those guns.

I will also strongly disagree here as well. The point is moot if you fly a pure squad of nothing but Alphas, because then you have all equal priority targets.

The principle lesson of the Alpha Squadron Pilot is that its cost efficiency is too low to be effective, and it has nothing to overcome that deficit. Boost for arc dodging isn't very useful at PS1. The PS1/3 generic StarVipers have the same exact problem, hence why they aren't and won't be used much at all. The Starviper has a very nearly balanced offense:defense ratio, and the generics still don't get used.

You need to have a good platform to start to maintain cost effectiveness. So a tricked out YT-1300 (especially with C-3P0 which has been mathed out at being worth 5-10+ points) or Fat VT-49 are going to be a way more efficient use of points than your example of a tricked out Defender. (Sorry Defender defenders, but it's true! :P )

But they're so cost effective in my heart...

101 is the correct answer

If you are flying a "FAT" large based ship like Han, Dash, Chirpy, is not uncommon to hit the high 50's low 60's. However these ships tend to stick around a LONG time on the board, which makes those big points a lot easier to swallow.

So the real question is on small based ships, overall, and I like 'em cheep and dirty myself. I tend not to waste points on frivolous upgrades, namely munitions of any kind or big guns or upgrades that overall do not add that much to a ship that can be killed in a single turn of fire. For example, if I add up the points on all my small based ships upgrades and I can get two or more ships out of it, then I have spent WAY too much, and I tend to just get more guns on the table. In fact, if I have put more then one upgrade on a small based ship I tend to question it.

Now there are of course exceptions to this as well. The Phantoms, Soontir, and Corran will hit into the high 30's easily, but again their durability justifies this. This is not always the case, especially with the unnamed pilots.

A good rule of thumb for me, for named pilots I tend not to go more then 5 points over their base cost unless for a really good reason, which almost always is in the durability factor of that ship. Stealth Device on an Autothruster Soontir, or ACD on a named Phantom for example. These are considered standard upgrades for these ships. For unnamed pilots, however, I tend not to go more then three over their base cost, if at all. Blues with Advanced Sensors for example is pretty good, but that TIE Bomber you loaded down with 15 points worth of missiles and torpedoes, not worth it at all!

The short answer of course and dress your squad to taste, but overall, unless on a named pilot, loading down a ship with upgrades tends to be points better spent elsewhere, usually on more ships!

The type of ship makes all the difference. I'm extremely hesitant to put HLCs on Scyks because while they have 3 AGI, they only have 3 HP, too. And if you'd seen the way I roll greens, you'd understand my hesitation

(Thankfully no such ship exists, Fat Falcons and Decimators top out in the 60's)

False! Han Solo can be made to cost as much as 72 points! :P

(Admittedly, this involves having the very useful combo of Luke Skywalker and Gunner...)

Edited by Klutz

(Thankfully no such ship exists, Fat Falcons and Decimators top out in the 60's)

False! Han Solo can be made to cost as much as 72 points! :P

(Admittedly, this involves having the very useful combo of Luke Skywalker and Gunner...)

With the ever-so-useful triple gunner build, a Decimator can sit on 82

80, if you use Ysanne and Flight Instructor instead. Then you at least have useful upgrades (sort of)

Edited by UnfairBanana

(Thankfully no such ship exists, Fat Falcons and Decimators top out in the 60's)

False! Han Solo can be made to cost as much as 72 points! :P

(Admittedly, this involves having the very useful combo of Luke Skywalker and Gunner...)

With the ever-so-useful triple gunner build, a Decimator can sit on 82

80, if you use Ysanne and Flight Instructor instead. Then you at least have useful upgrades (sort of)

(LOL)

That wins an award from the Department of Redundancy Department.

And for having both Proton bombs and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. Because bling.

(Thankfully no such ship exists, Fat Falcons and Decimators top out in the 60's)

False! Han Solo can be made to cost as much as 72 points! :P

(Admittedly, this involves having the very useful combo of Luke Skywalker and Gunner...)

With the ever-so-useful triple gunner build, a Decimator can sit on 82

80, if you use Ysanne and Flight Instructor instead. Then you at least have useful upgrades (sort of)

(LOL)

That wins an award from the Department of Redundancy Department.

And for having both Proton bombs and Advanced Proton Torpedoes. Because bling.

I know I've seen a gold-painted Deci somewhere...

Roughly:

Between 30 and 35 points for a small based ship with a high PS pilot.

No more than 30 for a low PS pilot.

Sure there are exceptions and all that, but as a baseline it works for me.