There may also be specific rules regarding Advanced careers. It's not stated in the news, but I don't think the article claims to be 100% comprehensive. Specific exceptions are rather inelegant, IMO, so I hope they don't do that though.

Don't make me bring out the WFRP 1st edition picture of a halfling eating a big sausage again...

Necrozius said:

Classic.

I would like to point out that the people complaining about Halflings being left out may very well be the same people who hate the new system all together and won't be buying it anyways. So.. game on.

Mordenthral said:

So, if I like (potentially buy ot) I can talk (or you will listen). Otherwise I say only rubbish?

This is an interesting attitude... on these forum there is too much talking of who buy what, and too few about the game... on.

DeathFromAbove said:

If you only deal in absolutes, then yeah, you can read my post that way. I agree with you, actually, as no one is going to form my opinion (or change it) by describing what they like, want, hate, need, despise, etc about the new system. I enjoy talking about the mechanics themselves, hearing new information about the game and sharing Warhammer stories with other players. So.. game on.

According to the "Upcoming" section on this website, WFRP v.3 is already at the printer.

So no amount of whining and complaining will STOP the game being put into stores.

Constructive criticism about potential flaws in this new game system is totally cool and adds to the discussion.

Whining and bitching about how FFG raped your childhood is totally lame at this point (and we've heard it all before).

Necrozius said:

That actually made me laugh out loud. "Raped your childhood", hehe.

While I can't recall hearing many of the naysayers actually using that phrase, sometimes you certainly do get the feeling that it's what they mean, even if they don't say it.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Seeing all these reports about WFRP 3 makes me feel like they're touching my childhood's no-no place!

So, here it is some "problems" I've got while playing pool dice systems.

Of course this is personal view, but since WFRP 3rd, if I've understood well, is a pool dice system, some could be applicable:

1. Space and order: me, and many other gamers (and GM), have the tendency of having the playing table full of sheets, pencils, miniatures, snakcs and dice. While rolling a d20 or a d100 is easy, searching for them in that mess could be problematic. Searching for 6/8/10 dice will be sure a chore. Of course this is dependant on the discipline and order of the gamers but, so far, I've got this problem with almost anyone.
2. Secret modifiers: sometimes I like to apply secret modifiers to player's roll. This to simulate (hoping... ) some unknown factors that can change the outcame of a PC action. This type of modifiers will be, much of the time, applied outside combat. In a pool dice system it is a little complex. You can roll a dice or two for/against the player but it's slow and gives out some hints.
3. Secret rolls: some as above. I like to roll for the players some rolls, like perceptions/awareness or appraisal, whatever. It start to be very difficult and cumbersome handle this type of situation with 6/8/10 dice per player.
4. Math: honestly I'm not a math buy, but when you roll a poll where the majority of the dice are of a type, you got averages. It's not an issue for me, but it's there.
5. Combat: I don't know the tidbits of WFRP 3rd, but If I must roll 6/8/10 dice to know if my globin dodged... well, it's sure to be a loooooong fight. In addition knowing if my globin dodge my skill (or lack of) or plain luck will not help describe the 100th dodge. Even so for the player.
6. GM bottleneck: in many systems the majority of dice rolls rest on the GM shoulders. In a pool dice system rolling 6/8/10 dice every time is going to be a real danger of sleepiness for the players at the table.
7. Symbols recognitions: I've used d6 for the hero systems, where there is a single simbol (replacing a 6) and one ì,2 or 3 dots under some numbers. Well, I've played with many players for more than a years... and nearly every time the loose sight of the six. Strange behaviour... but that so.
8. Changing die type: some pool dice system use different dice as modifiers and conditions. I've came to understand that this type of approach isn't very natural to accustom. This will impact on Point 1 also.
9. Counter Symbols: symbols that canceals/augment/change the meaning of other symbols have presented a sluggish reading by players and GM, slowing much, much more the action.

While WFRP 3rd could be above these difficulties, I'm a bit worried about this brand new dice pool mechanic.

I agree with Necrozius's post.

I think it might also be worth mentioning, for good or bad, that FFG stated they wanted to get away from the GM being considered "the opponent". In that regard, I think it might be the idea from FFG that the GM doesn't apply hidden modifiers. If an attempt is difficult, the GM just adds Challenge dice or Misfortune dice to the roll. Of course, the GM doesn't have to say what those extra dice are for/from, but the modifiers (extra dice) are transparent. This way, the GM is not a secret opponent, but a storyteller that modifies then interprets the roll result. Regardless, as Necrozius poitned out, you could easily just always have the GM roll the challenge and misfortune dice secretly. So, the players see the positive rolls, but don't see the negative rolls that are against them and then the GM looks at both rolls and explains the results.

At this point the primary problem I have with the new system is that its not available yet! I'm looking forward to actually getting to check it out so all of these discussions can move beyond the, mostly, speculative.

DeathFromAbove said:

I think most of these problems you mention won't be any more troubling than in the usual RPG game that uses any kind of dice.

I have some experience playing Descent (where you also have a lot of different types of dice) and I think the only real problem you may have is with your point 5 (changing dice). To avoid this problem, it is best to have at least one set of dice for the players and another for the GM, though maybe 2 sets for the players and 1 for the GM would be optimum. Usually, people prefer playing with their own dice, so that should not be a problem, and I'm sure a set of new dice won't be too expensive.

dvang said:

I've played a bunch of different systems on both sides of the screen - whether or not the GM is an "opponent" has little to do with the game system, IMO. The GM's style, and the attitudes of the players are really going to determine whether or not the GM is an opponent, I don't think any attempt by the game system designers is going to change that.

cogollo said:

Actually, that's one of my few gripes so far. The die expansion pack contains:

• 4 Fortune dice (white d6)
• 2 Misfortune dice (black d6)
• 2 Characteristic dice (blue d8)
• 1 Reckless die (red d10)
• 1 Conservative die (green d10)
• 1 Challenge die (purple d8)
• 1 Expertise die (yellow d6)

You would need 4 packs to make a dice pool equal to the one in the game. At $9.95 per pack, that's over $40 with shipping. Might as well buy the core set (then you have your own books, cards, etc. as well as the dice).

NezziR said:

Those numbers do seem weird. Do you really need fortune dice more than characteristic dice or misfortune dice? Maybe they mixed up the quantities. I think it would make more sense to have 4 characteristic dice, 2 Fortune dice and 2 Misfortune dice.

NezziR said:

I don't think the quantities are mixed up, I think the dice are being regarded as a money-spinner. I don't mean that as a dig at the game, but once you introduce custom components that are mandatory for gameplay and the marketing people get involved...

Read the latest diary about challenges.

Basically, a single roll will have 0-4 characteristic or stance dice, 0-4 expertise dice, and 0-4 challenge dice. Fortune and Misfortune dice are added in various, unlimited (except by GM), amounts. So, since the Fortune and Misfortune dice have no real limits (all the other dice are restricted to probably 4 max per roll), it stands to reason that more Fortune/Misfortune dice are included in the dice add-on packs.

NezziR said:

I don't think a single player would need a dice pool equal to all the dice in the base game (and wouldn't need any misfortune dice at all, since those are added by the GM.)

So, while the spread of included dice does seem strange, I would suggest buying a single pack for a mere $10 and rolling the characteristic dice multiple times.