Bolters?

By DocIII, in Dark Heresy

TheFlatline said:

segara82 said:

Okay. Something like a lasgun would have to have an energy output in the megawatt range. Maybe only one megawatt. That's 1000 kilowatts. Right now, a battery the size of a fridge can store 20 kilowatts. So 50 fridge sized batteries that weigh several hundred pounds each would generate one megawatt laser shot. And those liquid core batteries don't output all that power at once. The prototype outputs that energy over 4 hours or so. Most deep-storage batteries with high density don't output all at once, which you'd need to be a practical weapon. Having even a 3-5 second recharge time between shots while a capacitor fills up is simply not practical compared to a solid state projectile. We simply do not know how to store massive amounts of suddenly-releasable power in the megawatt range and do it in something that is roughly the size of a man's fist aside from capacitors, which carry their own issues.

Basically, we're several orders of magnitude away in both weight and size, and let's say one or two orders of magnitude away on storage. We haven't come *that* far in 30 years as far as batteries are concerned.

On top of that, laser effective range is generally considered to be a non-constant. Lasers will encounter temperature and humidity changes during it's flight, which will cause diffusion. Over long ranges (say half a mile for a long las?) right now the Air Force is unsure if performance would be steady enough to make worth while. And that's a law of physics, not a technology hurdle that needs to be overcome.

It might be feasible some day, but right now there aren't even theories out there for how to solve those logistics. My guess is that if laser/energy based weapons are to be feasible, it won't be batteries that supply power, it will be small-scale generators providing power directly to an array of ultra-efficient capacitors, bypassing batteries (which the chemists have always lagged behind the physicists) entirely. With, say, 10 capacitors in an array, if it takes 2 seconds to charge a capacitor, you could sustain a higher rate of fire for longer.

Even then, if you could produce power that efficiently, say cold (or at least contained) fusion, then it'd probably be much deadlier to unleash that level of power as plasma than as a laser.

You are correct there, the physics of energy containment are a long way off, if at all even possible. Your last statement is a thinker, plasma can be very deadly when super heated far enough (Plasma is a 4th state of matter, the sun for instance is considered to be in the plasma state, rather then a gas state). We know how to generate extremely powerful lasers, we don't know how to generate extremely hot plasma and contain it, let alone finding a way to then project it. Your only hope would be to use magnetic fields, which for those who care to know is how most people assume a light saber would function.

Don't get me wrong. Lasers will see a lot of use, in fact they will revolutionize the modern battlefield. Everything from Ballistic missles to jet aircraft may soon be obsolete. The ability to instantly hit any target in range and line of sight is of incalculable value and will change the air and space war forever. But these weapons will primarily see use as static positions or mounted on navy vessels, extremely large aircraft, or even satellites. They have little apparent utility as a small arm.

Honestly it would take only one change to radicaly alter modern weapons, mastery of cold fusion (as previously mentioned) that alone would allow energy weapons to be refined to a small enough size to be man portable. Of course asking for cold fusion is like asking for cold fission, it's probably just not possible.

Gabriel said:

Honestly it would take only one change to radicaly alter modern weapons, mastery of cold fusion (as previously mentioned) that alone would allow energy weapons to be refined to a small enough size to be man portable. Of course asking for cold fusion is like asking for cold fission, it's probably just not possible.

Cold fusion won't do the job. Even if you can get that mythical white elephant to work you won't get it generators small enough to power hand weapons. You need to get the lasing medium (or particle accelerator or whatever) down to size, you have heat inefficiency issues (1% inefficiency with a 10 megajoule weapon is 100 kilojoules of waste heat), you have power transmission issues, you have cost issues, and so on and the weapon has to competitive with whatever other weapons exist with all that fun future tech. We're talking far future at best and very possibly never.

Cynical Cat said:

(1% inefficiency with a 10 megajoule weapon is 100 kilojoules of waste heat)

Which of course, brings an entire new meaing to the concept of overheating. gran_risa.gif

Ouch! Burned my fingers!

As I understand it, current experimentation with Laser weapons runs into a problem besides power output. Actual lasers so far work a little like the DH Power Incinerate: they melt through metal very efficiently, but require some time focused on the target to be effective. Also, unlike in DH, they actually work better on metal than flesh, due to metal's greater heat conduction. So they could well prove efficient at striking down missiles or cutting through tank armor with further research (though I believe the later is already done efficiently by certain sniper rifles). But they'd still actually be rather inefficient for plain old killing human beings.

I always wondered about that for lasguns. For me they never seemed like they would be the equal to a fully ado gun. Which in 40k believe they are designed to replace.

InquisitorGray said:

I always wondered about that for lasguns. For me they never seemed like they would be the equal to a fully ado gun. Which in 40k believe they are designed to replace.

Technically, a lasgun is about equal to an autogun (though the autogun typically has a faster rate of fire). The reason they're used in preference by the Imperial Guard is because of logistics - it's far easier to ship enough rechargeable batteries for two million soldiers than it is to ship enough bullets for those same soldiers to use over a six month (projected) campaign (assume 100 shots a day, average, as a figure pulled out of the air. For that, you'd need either two charge packs per guardsman, regularly recharged, maybe three for a little breathing room, for a total of six million charge packs for 90 million thrones... or you'd need somewhere in the region of 36,400,000,000 autogun bullets for about 1.8 billion thrones), and the lasgun is far more reliable in use and easier to maintain than the autogun as well, so the lack of effectiveness caused by the lower rate of fire is more than compensated for by the fact that it's 20 times cheaper to supply an army with lasguns in the long run. It's a practical purpose not easy to convey in Dark Heresy, because you're dealing with individuals, not vast armies.