This isn't a whine thread. I'm looking for constructive advice against the common BBBBZ matchup. Have come up against this list five times now, and haven't beaten it once. Haven't even come close. Here are the various builds I've been using at the time:

Scenario A:

Soontir w/ PTL, Auto, Stealth, Dark Curse, Patrol Leader w/ Vader

This was a total wash. Decimator very predictably went down like a sack of bricks in the face of all that firepower. Did not have enough red dice to punch through the shields and even Soontir, while bravely sticking it out to the near the end, couldn't arc dodge five ships with such tight turns available on their dial and eventually got blocked and sunk.

Scenario B:

3 x Gold Squadron w/ Ion, Flechette

1 x Gold Squadron w/ Ion, R3A2

Complete pokerface match. We had a large clustered field of asteroids in the middle of the board and both spent about half an hour staying on opposite sides to see who would break ranks and rush first. Was able to control the pace very well when it came down it, but hadn't left myself enough time to do enough damage when the clock ran out.

Scenario C:

IG-88 B&C w/ PTL, Advanced Sensors, Auto, Mangler (on B) + HLC (on C)

These matches were close, but still proved ineffective. Deployed asteroids as far apart as possible to give myself room to move. Aggressors were able to weather the storm fairly competently by turtling, but pulling off decent S-Loops and K-Turns was incredibly difficult as the opponents were smart enough to spread their ships out a fair bit. These were the closest matches, with several B-Wings on just hull, but eventually got blocked into oblivion and sunk by a mass of Range 1 shots.

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We're coming up to Regionals and Nationals time now. I'm expecting this list to make several appearances, and I just have no idea how to counter it. Any advice?

Hmmm....

Dunno, really. I guess that to beat that many heavy fighters, you've got to switch to 'killing large unmanouvrable ship' mode - a heavy TIE Fighter or Z-95 swarm might do some good?

A B-wing's weakness - in so far as it has any - is that single point of agility. That means that multiple attacks and 2-dice shots do well. I currently fly a TIE Fighter wing (the six named pilots) and that many shots seems able to take a B-wing apart fairly efficiently

Ordnance is probably a bad call - anything one-use won't work when you're considering taking on four of the **** things.

I wonder if 'warthog' Y-wings might do better than the standard version - you lose the Z-95 'trailer' but your four ships are just as tough, and have much more firepower and Ion weapons to boot, and you can spend the leftover 8 points on one of the various (very good) named pilots.

Of course, how well it'll do against other squads is a different matter.

BBBBZ is always going to be an extremely rough match-up regardless of what you're flying; if not for the MoV rules and lack of partial point scoring, I'm sure it would be the best list currently in the game.

I think these would be your best options:

1) The most obvious thing - play BBBBZ yourself, so the match just comes down to pilot skill. It's an easy list to fly (at least on a basic level).

2) Play dual Phantoms. This will require a lot more practice post-FAQ, but it should in theory still be a great match-up for Whisper/Echo so long as you're a capable arc dodger.

3) Play a jousting TIE Swarm. The math says that you will come out ahead on average in a straight-up fight - just be warned that piloting a swarm effectively and keeping Howlrunner in the mix but unattractive to shoot at is very, very challenging. Practice a LOT if you go this route.

4) If it's legal to do so (dunno), use a Vader + Tempest Squadron swarm with the new fix, running ATC on Vader and Accuracy Corrector for the Tempests. It's a little easier to fly than a big TIE fighter swarm and should come out well ahead of BBBBZ in a straight-up fight.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I should clarify: I'm not asking for lists that could beat it. I'm just after some general tactics and strategy on deployment, approach, upgrades, et cetera. I don't want to build a list tailored against it specifically.

4 scum Ys with locked down turrets!!

PS build for it. 4 Daggar B-wings with FCS chew through 4 blues and a Z.

Ionize them. B-wings do not like to be ionized.

4 Warthogs with ion turrets/blaster turret + R4 can pound on B-wings just as hard, if not harder.

Well, as far as upgrades go, packing an HLC or two could certainly do it, if you stick to range 3. You'll be able to deny a bonus die from the Bs and Z, while retaining one yourself, and putting out a solid amount of damage. Obstacle placement can be very important, so you'll probably want a setup that forces the swarm to split up, so you can take on a smaller section of it at a time. And as mentioned above Warthog Ys and Ion Cannons are another viable tactic since they punish the low agility pretty nicely.

PS build for it. 4 Daggar B-wings with FCS chew through 4 blues and a Z.

That's 104 points.

You might try and flank. One element can attack through the asteroids, one can go around. If you time it right (easier said than done), you can focus all your guns on one B-wing, but one of your elements will know whether or not it needs to save focus on defense, and it will be able to follow and keep its guns on the B's without having to K-turn or worry about getting blocked. It forces the B-wings to commit to one direction, so it's not a game of chicken anymore. If BBBBZ splits, it's usually to your advantage because B's are so slow. You can often concentrate better, but it depends on asteroids and your own ships.

Generally having PS>2 (or =2 if you have a 1 point Initiative bid) is great because you keep the B-wings from re-positioning. I do really like having at least 3 because getting PS kills in can make a big difference in the amount of damage you take over time.

Mobility is key vs. the B swarm (try and swap Vader for Mara on the Decimator and you'll see) and:

Deployed asteroids as far apart as possible to give myself room to move.

Was a mistake imho, IGs hate when asteroids are clustered in the middle as it severely limits their superior manoeuvrability.

One Card I often use is Outmanuver.

Some of my preposters made valid propositions!

- Warthog Y-Wings with Ion cannons. They can outdamage the B-Wings if you get close enough and they also can ionize them which in a joust lets you just K-Turn behind them and obliterate them. Ion shots are extremely easy to land on B-Wings.

- 4 B-Wings with FCS would probably weigh up the Z-95 and outdamage your enemy. With the 4 points left, you could bid for initiative and block, or let him have it so you move last! Or you take something you like...

- Whisper/Echo, Soontir, Turr can actually win this matchup. The Phantom has been nerfed, but you can still outmaneuver most of the B-Wings and 4 AD hurts a ton! The Interceptors are also very hard to hit with Autothrusters and can either dodge arcs or stay at R3 for the thrusters to work!

- I think i also remember beating this list with 3 Ion cannon Defenders. You move first, but if your green dice don't totally fail you can still win this by blocking and ionizing when the Moment is opportune.

I faced BBBBZ once and managed to beat it, but I had Chewbacca and Leebo, so lots of health. Also Leebo had a HLC (but no Outrider) and Chewbacca had Predator and Gunner. So I guess I would say, from my very limited experience, that getting out of the arcs of a few Bs while still being able to shoot at them is key. Also, Predator is great against lower PS ships obviously. No need for target lock, just focus all the time.

I'd have thought that given a Bwings achilles heel is its AG that ion cannons are the key here.

I imagine that lone z95 is running up and down behind them to protect the rear but at 2AG the z95 isnt exactly immune to ion wepaons.

If you can find a way to field enough ion weapons or do an ion pulse torp/missile you could potentially drive this list off the table.

I mean theoretically if the Z was knocked out quick for gold squadrons with ICTs could just sit behind a BBBBZ list and push it off the board.

Of course easier said than done but i think manouvre is going to be the key here , trying to out shoot a ship that excels at soaking up damage and chucking it out is always going to be tough.

Mobility is key vs. the B swarm (try and swap Vader for Mara on the Decimator and you'll see) and:

Deployed asteroids as far apart as possible to give myself room to move.

Was a mistake imho, IGs hate when asteroids are clustered in the middle as it severely limits their superior manoeuvrability.

I'm sorry, I don't understand. I'm aware that IGs hate clustered asteroids and, as the IG player, I deployed them far apart to create less clusters. Why was this a mistake?

One Card I often use is Outmanuver.

Feels a little redundant against Agility 1 B-Wings...

Pair of named defenders with HLC will do it, shoot from range three then when they get close break off with a straight five followed by a four k and repeat.

Speed kills BBBZ lists. Fly around them and if you list allows it, break them up with a blocker. Or, force them through asteroids. Don't give them wide lanes when placing rocks. Create the field that outs advantageous to your list.

I dont think the problem is coming up with a list that beats BBBBZ, it's coming up with a list that beats that list AND has a reasonably good chance against everything else thats out there. (Same as it used to be with Whisper, Fat Han etc).

Pair of named defenders with HLC will do it, shoot from range three then when they get close break off with a straight five followed by a four k and repeat.

I'd have thought the same thing would be better with ION cannons as you'll be locking down two B wings a turn, sure you wont be doing as much damage but they wont be firing back or even pointing the right way either!

Use Rexler to be really hurting them once you've got their shields down by making that one point of damage critical damage ever time?

I dont think the problem is coming up with a list that beats BBBBZ, it's coming up with a list that beats that list AND has a reasonably good chance against everything else thats out there. (Same as it used to be with Whisper, Fat Han etc).

Granted but i got the feeling the OP wanted something that tackles BBBBZ.

As in his regular opponents field it a lot.

Just the impression I got.

Mobility is key vs. the B swarm (try and swap Vader for Mara on the Decimator and you'll see)

A Decimator is never a good idea against BBBBZ. They rip it to shreds very quickly regardless of who is on board. The only prayer you have is to stay far away and try and volley shots at B's from range 3. The trouble is that when the BBBBZ player spreads their ships out in a wide line you have no where to go.

The BTL title Y-Wings with ion are very strong again B-Wings because A) they don't like to be hit with ions and B) because they are going to have a ton of dice rolled against them. The B-Wings 1 agility is its biggest weakness. All those 2 dice primary attacks can still add up against a B-Wing plus you sprinkle in extra damage from the ion attacks on top of the control element.

I'm most interested in seeing how good the BTL's will be against other strong lists. If they have enough good matchups we will see them often enough in tournament play to keep BBBBZ lists in check.

here is a list I have thought of after losing my only match to warthog rebels:

darth vader + ruthlessness + cluster missile

major rhymer + ruthlessness + cluster missile + munitions failsafe

captain jonus + ruthlessness + cluster missile + munitions failsafe

100 points with 6 points of potential splash damage during the alpha strike, if done correctly, you should be able to take down 2 of the B's or Y's in the alpha strike before they even attack, then with ruthlessness and the devastation they had just witnessed the enemy will be less likely to group up again and this will allow you to pick them off 1 by 1, if he chooses to stay in formation, then extra damage from ruthlessness will win you the day

EDIT:

I also want to add, that this could be very effective against 2 ship builds, cluster missiles firing at the ship next to fat Han would spill 6 damage without having to roll against him. then the decimator, in my experience, the cluster missile is the bane of decimators, in this build we are talking 18 attack dice for an alpha strike! with rerolling 2 attack dice for 2 of the ships, goodbye decimator. I think I just found new love for bombers

in my head, I see this being an effective list against most lists I've seen, even swarms, each of these ships target locks a different TIE or Z, then direct the Ruthlessness damage as needed to eliminate ships. you could potentially take down 3-5 ships (5 is being generous, but it is possible) during the alpha strike, then you scatter them or if they try to hold formation you wreck them with ruthlessness.

the down side is lack of real maneuverability, Vader will have to do most of the clean up, but the bombers will get shots here or there and hopefully your enemy panics and makes mistakes.

not a perfect list, but 1 with potential, I think.

I personally don't like BBBBZ, try my list it's 2 Daggers 4 Talas, it's my anti swarm/large ships and it did very well in the SC season (nothing lower that 4th In all 5 SCs) you can place after and shoot first vs BBBBZ I will place to joust them with a row of 3 Talas with 2 Daggers and a Tala in the Back (put the Tala on the farthest corner since it has better turns)

first round,usually R2/3 I'm throwing 14 modified dice and always kill a Blue if R1 that's a Blue & Bandit, then it's all down hill for them from there. Keep in mind jousting is your friend once you lock horns his Bs can't K-turn behind your 2 rows while your front row's 3 k-turn can easily get behind his 2 rows

the list is alot of fun, I've beaten all large ships includes every double IG I've flown against and could handle phantoms (old rules) since I had enough ships to block all the decloaks I did this for 4 straight rounds while I crushed his deci.

Hope this helps

Just spitballing here but 2 Daggers and 2 Gray BTL's with ions and R2's is 100 points.

You keep the PS advantage to kill ships without letting them shoot back. You are going to throw a lot of dice yourself and you can use one of your Y-Wings last and in the circumstances that you finish off a ship with your primary weapon attack you can make your secondary ion attack against an entirely different ship.

This isn't a 1 trick pony either. It should match up well against a variety of things and have some decent staying power with so many hit points.

Honestly, I think you just had some squads that didn't have enough tools to deal with BBBBZ. So while I know you aren't looking for list building advice, it is part of where your problem lies.

Your Soontir/DC/Patrol Leader squad has an answer in Soontir, but there isn't enough overall firepower in your list to remove enough arcs for Soontir to do his thing. Meanwhile, your patrol leader is an easy MOV target. Losing Dark Curse to beef up the Decimator pilot and adding engine allows your Decimator to hold up better against a swarm.

Your control list is utterly lacking the firepower to deal with this list well, and you already pinpointed the error. You can't waste a ton of time with ships that plink away 1 damage at a time.

The third list was the first I thought had a decent chance. You probably were just beaten by someone having a better day.

I think the techniques I would use in general matches how you flew your control list, just with anything other than a control list. Make them maneuver around for a while and attempt to break up the formation/focus fire and snipe them. Use asteroids to make them come through to you. Any cluster will do - a circle in the center, a staggered line, a wedge pointed at him, etc. Better if they are closer to your side.