With the possibility of hitting with 2D10+6 Pen 6, I don't see how a plasma pistol is bad? I my opinion, the way it shoots on the tabletop is the maximal mode in the RPG. It perfectly suits its role in my games.

S7 is reliably more than a heavy bolter. 2d10+6 without tearing is not. Furthermore AP 2 negates terminator armour(and is the equivalent of a las cannon and -considerably- higher than boltguns. Not two points, but rather, literally twice as high; for reference, boltguns negate FLAK, which is AS 5+) and it fires every round. Maximal fires every TWO rounds. Plasma guns also have rapid fire same as bolters.

Now, here's the real killer. At d6+7, on a good hit, plasma weapony, pistols included, can actually punch through the -front- armour of a leman russ, where it's the thickest. This is probably the equivalent of the 'razor sharp' quality.

In relation to that, the melta's armour penetration is actually a bit too low. It has AP 1, which basically means it slices through anything infantry has, period, and it busts through tank armour on 2d6+8, which vs. most tanks' 13 is considerable.

For reference in comparison, a bolter is S 4 AP 5. It's a low pen weapon that is only marginally better than an autogun (S3) in crunch. It should not be the go-to, better alternative to plasma.

The tabletop game has terrible rules that should not be played, let alone used to inform other games.

Those stats still inform the novels, where Melta and Plasma are used to off tanks, or Terminators...

I've played the game since the 3rd version (even if I did not play a lot these last 3 years). And Leman Russ have a frontal amour of 14, wich a plasma pistol do net get through, unless there is some new rules now, you still can't get a 7 on a D6.

What you say is true, this can't compare to the table top. But when we speak about game balance, here it is. Remember that your plasma pistol can be soaked 3 times or more by a space marine commander. In Dark Heresy, it's the same; you get a space marine hero on the battlefield and he won't survive much more than that on the maximal mode. The moral hero won't survive much more than he does on the tabletop game.

If we want to continue your comparison, a lasgun has a strenght of 3 while a plasma gun has a strenght of 7, which is more than the double. Well, you can shoot at 2D10+6 instead of the 1D10+3 of the lasgun. Pretty close, in my opinion. It also a lot more penetration. As good in comparison, no, indeed. But not so far away. The tabletop has a scale of 10 on its stats. DH do not have this on its armours, toughness bonus and weapons strenght. The comparison can just give an idea, not say what is right.

And at this point of comparison, remember that Inquisitorial acolyte are charachters with very low profiles on the table top game, which is not necessarily the case in DH. At this point, in my opinion, CPS points towards something real: the tabletop game has rules that aren't something that we should base a RPG on. They are abstracted and made to get the job done.

The problem with your comparison is that you are using the statline for a firing mode that can fire every two rounds, as opposed to standard mode. It's plasma. Why can my character shrug it off naked unless my opponent overloads the weapon?

I also do not see why it is a bad thing to use the wargame's weapon stats as a basis for a universe of fluff, and an RPG, based solely on the wargame.

I would also point out that it is more than possible to achieve armour ratings over 10 in Only War, and likely will be in Dark Heresy, if I know my splatbook power creep. So AV weaponry, which is what plasma weapons essentially are, that completely slices through infantry armour is more than fine in my books.

It's plasma. Why can my character shrug it off naked?

Because the combat system of this game was not built to reflect anything in the fluff and attempts to rework it were violently rejected. So we're saddled with a combat system that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when put under a microscope.

It's plasma. Why can my character shrug it off naked?

Because the combat system of this game was not built to reflect anything in the fluff and attempts to rework it were violently rejected. So we're saddled with a combat system that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when put under a microscope.

One has to remember it is a RPG we're talking about.

In fluff, protagonists have plot armor. A meltagun can instagib pretty much any kind of infantry (humans, tau, marines, orks etc.) regardless of armor, that's pretty much universal in fluff. I can remember plenty of instances where protagonists were shot at by meltaguns, but not a single one where a protagonist was not, for some reason or other, missed by said meltagun shot. In a RPG plot armor is vastly reduced/non-existent. If most weapons instagibbed in a RPG as much as they do in fluff, most games will be **** short.

Truth be told, in terms of plot armour, I would find a more extensive fate point mechanic a better one than nerfing weapons' damage. I've also never had a problem building a story arc in systems where one shot will literally kill you. If anything, it encourages players to use their heads and think about the problem at hand, the setting and come up with more creative solutions than "machine trait + autocannon + Weapons MIU". Speaking from experience, I do not think "this is an RPG" is a valid argument for keeping damage low. It would be a valid argument for, and some RPGs do this, tiering protagonist and mook statlines and even arsenals. That is a different approach that can work, and may keep things atmospheric enough for groups who don't like biting the bullet due to a poorly educated decision of when to fight.

It's plasma. Why can my character shrug it off naked unless my opponent overloads the weapon?

I'd blame your lack of imagination more tbh.

It's the same with other weapons, like getting shot with autoguns and shrugging it off. Maybe you just took some flesh wounds instead?

Truth be told, in terms of plot armour, I would find a more extensive fate point mechanic a better one than nerfing weapons' damage. I've also never had a problem building a story arc in systems where one shot will literally kill you. If anything, it encourages players to use their heads and think about the problem at hand, the setting and come up with more creative solutions than "machine trait + autocannon + Weapons MIU". Speaking from experience, I do not think "this is an RPG" is a valid argument for keeping damage low. It would be a valid argument for, and some RPGs do this, tiering protagonist and mook statlines and even arsenals. That is a different approach that can work, and may keep things atmospheric enough for groups who don't like biting the bullet due to a poorly educated decision of when to fight.

Personally, I dislike overly lethal RPGs. Either you play them letting the dice fall where they may and then it discourages me to invest very much time and energy into a character that might just die to an unlucky dice roll no matter what I do or the GM fudges, case in which it just becomes a convoluted 'rocks fall, you die' (you will only die when the GM feels you deserve it). I do understand how other people can enjoy it though.

That being said, I meant it's an RPG in the 40k context (as in you want to keep the feeling of the setting). A very lethal system would require people to play smart, and that's not what 40k is about. 40k is about dumb, over-the-top heroics. In 40k when people shoot at you you don't hunker down behind cover and call an airstrike. You run at them through the hail of gunfire so you can cut them with your chainsword.

I agree, reduced weapon damage isn't the best form of plot armor, but I feel some plot armor is needed.

It's plasma. Why can my character shrug it off naked unless my opponent overloads the weapon?

I'd blame your lack of imagination more tbh.

It's the same with other weapons, like getting shot with autoguns and shrugging it off. Maybe you just took some flesh wounds instead?

If a weapon's damage is so low it does -zero- damage, then something is off about game balance, mate. And thank you, my imagination is fine. How's yours?

I agree, reduced weapon damage isn't the best form of plot armor, but I feel some plot armor is needed.

I prefer Unhallowed Metropolis's approach, which ties in plot armour with corruption of the soul and body. You have several corruption tracks, and when you want to avoid death, you pick which one it bumps you up on, which has both an RP and a mechanical effect that, the further you proceed, gets more unpleasant. It's essentially fate points and plot armour rolled into one, with a limited "lifespan" dependant on the choices in the corruption track you make. My last character's physical disability, for example, turned from a mere chronic cough to lung cancer over the course of his lifetime and several near deaths, until he finally bought it when his track maxed out. There are other fluff spins you can put on this, of course, but I in generally really enjoy the idea of plot armour being tied in with story progression and being a finite resource (though unmet can let you grab I think up to 20 deaths before you truly die for good, if you are really keen on maxing out each avenue...), which lets you make the game as deadly as you like.

DH's somewhat underutilised corruption and insanity systems would be excellent as a basis for this. Or hell, even the faith track, which turns you into a zealot, or a mechanicus track, which slowly makes you function more and more like a machine with each near-miss. Dramaturgic impact is key there!

There is plot armor in the form of burning fate points to not die.

We're way off topic at this point, but the larger problem is that heavy las weaponry, plasma, and melta all do basically the same thing. In the tabletop game, lascannons are crazy strong, plasma gives you a template, and melta is really, really good at melting armor, but in the RPG those differences all amount to the same flavor of dead. There's nothing to really differentiate them at all (I guess except that plasma sometimes goes off in your hands).

Weapons in DH2 are crappy, okay, good, and great, and everything in those classes is more or less interchangeable. It's kind of boring.

It's plasma. Why can my character shrug it off naked unless my opponent overloads the weapon?

I'd blame your lack of imagination more tbh.

It's the same with other weapons, like getting shot with autoguns and shrugging it off. Maybe you just took some flesh wounds instead?

If a weapon's damage is so low it does -zero- damage, then something is off about game balance, mate. And thank you, my imagination is fine. How's yours?

I guess I didn't realize your character has 16 Toughness Bonus then.

Sorry I wasn't clear with scatter- I was referring to the weapon rule scatter, for shotguns. Scatter used to do extra d10's of damage at point-blank depending on your degrees of success on the BS test. Now it just gives a blanket +3 damage at point-blank and a +10 to hit at mid-range. Shotguns are basically useless now as full-auto weapons outperform them at every range. Special ammunition keeps them barely above water, but due to their rarity they're situational at best.

Ah, yeah, that scatter rule. That makes more sense.

Actually first edition's scatter rule caused additional hits based on degrees of success not additional d10s worth of damage which meant really tough and/or heavily armored characters could soak each hit causing lots of rolling for potentially nothing to happen. I actually think I prefer the increase to base damage better. The really problematic thing about the scatter rule now is that it was rewritten to have -3 damage outside of short range. It used to have that damage penalty outside of standard range. So the standard damage for the shotguns is not actually the damage they deal at their standard range. Also point blank going from 3m to 2m hurt a bit as well.

I guess I didn't realize your character has 16 Toughness Bonus then.

d10+6? That's nothing most of the time. Even a character with average toughness will take a lot of hits until he/she or it is at -7 criticals. Remember, wounds only actually take effect when you start reaching the negatives. Before that, it's "just a scratch".

Now, as the weaponry stands, a bolt pistol remains much more effective, because it gets to reroll the d10 for damage, and has alternate ammo types galore to boot. Even the most basic of which add things like additional pen, damage or the flame quality to shots.

So, why even use the far more expensive and less effective plasma pistol?

and

Why doesn't it have the same statline as a plasma gun, like every other pistol weapon does for its basic equivalent?

But yes, it isn't a lethal system.

Also, I'm not saying the damage output of a plasma pistol is fine as it is compared to its alternatives.

Since its long reload time is a major disadvantage, I'd increase the clip size of a plasma pistol from 10 to 12 so that you can get at least 4 shots off using the maximal setting.

And possibly also increase its damage to the one used by its Plasma Gun brother.

Back to 1st vs 2nd edition.........I completely agree with what was said about psykers. First, wth with the push/fettered system. In 1st edition, psykers were meant to be powerful because they CHANNEL THE FREAKIN WARP. Inversely, this same property makes them a damned character, as at any time they risk killing everyone. With the "new" system which they ported from OW, this eliminates half the fun of being a psyker. The point of psykers is to do what others can't. If they could not do this, then whats the point of bringing a ticking time bomb along. No longer can pyromancers sculpt the battlefield with flames. No longer can Biomancers perform extraordinary feats by shaping their own bodies. All the creativity has been lost. The point of the DH1 casting system was to make you think about psychic phenomena every time you roll. The weight of responsibility has been lifted from the psyker, but they have stripped them of their power as well.

What's also interesting is the version of the plasma pistol that Black Crusade uses:

Plasma Pistol : Range 40m; S/2/-; 1d10+7 E; Pen 8; Clip 10; Reload 3 Full; Maximal, Overheats

+ 1 Damage

+ 2 Pen

+ 10m Range

Yeah, I liked BC's plasma pistol. It was a step in the right direction and was a bit disappointed OW redacted the change. Personally, though, I'd do one of the following:

Amp the damage up to plasma gun, as it should be, or...

And this bit is what plasma grenades do in deathwatch: create an afterburn effect that deals weapon damage for d5 rounds. Both work, for me. One is an immediate effect, the other simulates a system shock due to sudden, extreme temperatures rather nicely, imo, especially given the fairly abstract damage system as such.

(I briefly thought about combining them, but we're going for "less lethal but still representative of the weapon" here )

But yes, it isn't a lethal system

I must admit that the critical wound systems lacks in getting the character close to death. I already posted my house rules about that, making characters dying at 0 wounds and receiving critical damages an other way.

And this bit is what plasma grenades do in deathwatch: create an afterburn effect that deals weapon damage for d5 rounds. Both work, for me. One is an immediate effect, the other simulates a system shock due to sudden, extreme temperatures rather nicely, imo, especially given the fairly abstract damage system as such.

In Cognizar's psychic supplement, there is the burning condition, which kill a character when you reach twice this character's tougness bonus. Maybe giving the plasma gun the possibility to produce 1D5 Burning condition on the target. The target do not start burning, but he is burnt and an other shot could kill him, unless he suffers zero damage. There, it would be the burning condition that transforms the plasma gun into dealing massive wounds.

If you wanted to accurately emulate the Plasma gun from TT you get a damage value of 1D10+15 Pen 8.

Why? Bear with me this gets a little wonky. Let's assume the base standard weapon is the Lasgun or Autogun. Both have TT Strength of 3 and no AP. Both have a DH damage value of 1d10+3 pen 0.

The Statistical average roll for a D10 is 6. Therefore the average damage of the Lasgun is 9.

A Plasma gun in TT is S 7 Pen 2. 7 divided by 3 is 2.33. Therefore, the Plasma gun's firepower is 2.33 times that of a Lasgun. 2.33 x 9 = 21. 21 - 6 (To isolate the D10) gives us 15. Therefore 1D10+15.

Penetration is based on the personal armor it will penetrate. Therefore AP 2 will render Space marine standard powered armor of no benefit. This gives us a Pen of at least 8 so that's where I put it.

Interestingly enough: If you apply the same conversion to a Boltgun, you get a damage value of 1D10+6 Pen 4. So that one's actually pretty close! (Not the SM version but I'm of the opinion that those are WAY overpowered!)

Penetration is based on the personal armor it will penetrate. Therefore AP 2 will render Space marine standard powered armor of no benefit. This gives us a Pen of at least 8 so that's where I put it.

AP2 renders Terminator Armor obsolete. Since other lines of FFG RPG put Terminator armor around 12 armor IIRC, that's the min penetration it should have based on tabletop.