Are they turned off or are they not turned off by Ancient Burial Ground's static text?

I have heard several different rulings on this and would if antigoth would go ahead and give this the stamp.

And search function on these forums is garbage.

What card are you taking about? TTBOMN there is no UFS card called Ancient Burial Ground.

Neither Ancient Battle Ground nor Ancient Training Ground have a continuous ability (static text) on them.

aslum said:

Id say it would just because they are abilities that do that but ur best bet is waiting for Antigoth

Well, they are revealing them as a cost, not as part of the ability, so I can see the confusion.

The reversal ability doesn't reveal a card from either players hand, the cost does. So yes reversals can still be played if Ancient Burial Site is in play.

The problem with the 'they are costs' logic is that there is a difference between 'Ability' and 'Effect.'

2.9.0.2 Played abilities are written as [Ability Type Abbreviation] [Cost]: [Game Effect of Ability].

By this statement, an 'Ability' encompasses all of the played game effects (E, R, F). By my reading, and I will say that the terms ability and effect are used inconsistantly in the Advanced Rules, an 'Ability' includes the cost, while an 'Effect' does not.

However, I do say that we need an official stamp on one or the other.

-Tinman

I'd also like to tack on with how does King / Cassie interact with the new Nina Card "Sharing a Moment" since its in the same vein.

Tinman said:

It says "Played abilities are written as ..." not the cost is part of the ability.

JDub said:

Actually, what it says is that:

2.9.0.2 Played abilities are written as [Ability Type Abbreviation] [Cost]: [Game Effect of Ability].
(See 2.12 Costs and 2.13 Effects for more information.)

The way the written rules break down what is written is by breaking up the text on the card into 3 separate parts

The Ability Type Abbreviation: The E, F, or R, as well as modifiers accompanying them. This tells you what type of ability it is. (Important)

The Cost: What it takes to play the ability. Self explanitoraly included as part of the ability.

The Game Effect of Ability: This is what the ability does. Notice, that according to the breakdown shown in the offical rules, this is not the ability, but is instead part of the ability.

These are all combined together to become the Ability on the card: Type, Cost, and Effect together. This means that any static text that referances a "card Ability" impacts the Type, Cost, and Effect of the ability.

And, to further the point, because an ability cannot be played if the cost cannot be paid (2.12.1), King would not be able to use the Ability on his card. It is not that the ability would be canceled. They, according to the Game State that Site grants, are not able to pay the cost.

Simply saying that Site does not interact with King because his impacted action is a Cost is in reverse of the rules as currently stated in the Official Rules. Now, if Site had instead used the term 'card effects' instead of 'card abilities,' we would have a whole new kettle of red herrings.

-Tinman

Cost and ability are not the same thing. The ability of playing a reversal does not reveal a card from your hand the cost does. The rules could probably be more clear of this but it's not the same thing. The ability is the type of ability you are playing (F, E, etc) and the effect it generates. The cost is not part of the effect there for it's not part of the ability, the cost it just something you have to pay to generate the effect.

Besides Olexa already said that Hata ruled that Ancient Burial Site does not stop reversals, King, or Cassandra. You can go here to see where he said it: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=26&efcid=5&efidt=188369&efpag=0#188425

Hata also said something about Jin's ability constantly checking the number of characters, and we know what happened with that, don't we?

ShippuJinrai said:

Thanks to Link for the ABS text.

Now we insert a Squirrel free version of Cassie:

And now we add some King:

So... without consulting James, and no response from Omar, I'm ruling it as follows:

As stated above by a couple of folks, the AGR reads:

2.9.0.2 Played abilities are written as [Ability Type Abbreviation] [Cost]: [Game Effect of Ability]. (See 2.12 Costs and 2.13 Effects for more information.)

If we then venture down to costs, we find the following:

2.12 Costs
When playing a card, or an ability, the cost is indicated between the ability type and colon (i.e., F Commit:, or F(5+): )
2.12.1 Costs are not optional.
2.12.2 Costs may only be paid using cards controlled by the player wishing to play the ability.
2.12.3 If a part of a cost is to commit foundations, you may use your character card as a foundation card to pay these costs.
2.12.4 A player may not pay more for a cost than they are required.

So, costs are broken out from the ability, and viewed seperately by the game rules.

Accordingly, Ancient Burial Site looks at everything after the colon, and says "Nothing here reveals a card." and allows both character abilities to be played.

Regarding, "Would Ancient Burial site stop a reversal?" No, based on the same reason. The AGR reads as follows:

2.14.2.7 Reversal
Reversal: (Response) - R Reveal this card from your hand: After an opponent’s
attack has resolved, if a player with this card successfully blocked the attack, he may immediately attempt to play this attack from his hand, proceeding as if he played a regular attack. Once this attack has resolved, his opponent continues with his Combat Phase. A player may only attempt to play one Reversal per attack. (See 8.0 The Combat Phase for more information on playing cards and resolving attacks.)

Note that the revealing the reversal is part of the cost to play the reversal ability, not part of the ability itself.

Tinman,

I understand how you feel that terms are used inconsistently in the AGR. I'm open to suggestions on how to reword sections to remove that inconsistency.

Regarding sharing a moment - This falls under the same guidelines as Ancient Burial Site, in that it tags abilities (after the colon), and not costs.

<Personal commentary / seeking information > - Off the top of my head, I while costs can be negated (see Calming the Mind Vs. Ira Spinta), I'm having a hard time recalling an instance where there is a response that activates and negates because of the cost paid. I realize I'm missing something (or I think I am), so would appreciate suggestions on what I've missed. (and I'm aware I may not have articulated myself as well as I would like in this last sentence.)

Cool. Glad to have an official word on this.

As for the inconsistancy, a simple paragraph under Cost expicitly removing costs from responses/card effects line of fire would ease most of the issue. It would make it so that, even if the terms Ability and Effect are floating around (Ability more so), cost is never an issue, resolving this type of issue.

Something like:

2.12.1 Costs are not optional and are not considered part of the card ability.

By this wording, there is not an issue with preventing a cost from being payed, as all abilites that might do so specifcally say "card ability" or "card effect." In addition, this re-defines the idea that you pay the cost, whether or not the ability is canceled.

Or you could do this:

2.9.0.2 The term Card Ability refers to both Continuous Effects and Played Effects.

Though this defines a bit too many rarely used terms as actual game terms, which can be troubling. By defining these, any card dealing with the term Abilities would have its scope reduced only by the manner in which the ability is activated. In Site's case, it's Card Ability would effect only Played Effects, because of the last 2 words in the Continuous Effect, nothing precedeing that. However, this change would break apart the term Abilites into two defined instances, allowing for some interesting new rules.

Example: (Continuous Effect)"Whenever a card ability would readies or commits a foundation, each player loses 1 vitality instead."

This would cover everything, including Castle-Twilight and Heel Snipe, but does not go off everytime a cost was payed, a la Shadow Arts.

Example: (Continuous Effect)"Whenever a card ability is play which would cause a player to lose X vitality, they instead gain X vitality."

Because of the 'is played' clause, it limits the scope of 'card ability' to only Played Effects.

Example: "R Commit: After a card ability commits or readies a foundation, commit or ready any other foundation. Copies of this foundation may not be readied by this effect."

This would, because there is no limit to the scope of 'card ability,' be able to trigger off of anything (besides a cost), from Programming Malfunction, to Heel Snipe, to Torn Hero.

And those are my thoughts on the matter. Thanks again Antigoth for clearing that up.

-Tinman

Good suggestions - noted to be included in some form in the next revision of the AGR