numb3rc said:

Of course, the high value of the catapults is down to their rarity... basically, the PCs will want to sell them as Xenos weaponry in order to get the best price for them. If they try to pretend that the weapons are human manufactured needle weapons that use a type of exotic ammo that no one can manufacture then they won't get nearly as much for it. Much of the potential value lies in their status as exotic xeno-guns.

bogi_khaosa said:

And that would be the telltale sign of xenos manufacture?

-"Oh no! The handle is a bit too long! It must be made by aliens!"

Seriously, an odd handle design could be blamed on a number of reasons. The owner could simply say that he or she has a dexterity condituion which makes it hard to get a firm grip on objects that are too large or something.

As for the dbate of how shopkeepers would react: keep in mind that there is an entire section in Disciples of the Dark Gods dedicated to "The Cold Trade". If you want to sell xenos artifacts ther will be buyers. It's just a matter of finding them, and only the most naive and idiotic PC's would think of the idea of just walzing in to the local arms dealer and whip out some funky looking xenos guns and ask how much he'd pay for them.

Well, thats exactly what we've been discussing now for 2 pages.

For the highest possible price to sell they need a person familiar with the Cold Trade. But dealing in Xenotech is forbidden, and the Acolytes literally risk their lives by doing it.

numb3rc allready said that they are not of a human-used material, therefore every legal armsdealer will either ask them to leave (in a more or less polite manner) or (try to) turn them over to the authorities. If you read the part about Imperial Citizens and Arms in IH you could come to the same conclusion as me that the legal ones get controlled on a regular/unregular basis. So chances to get a good price in that direction are minimal.

The black market dealers on the other hand CAN pay the Acolytes the desired amount of Thrones, but that brings risks of its own (i don't think that i have to give you a list about those).

my summary: No money in legal way (except reward for good behaviour), lots of money and risks in illegal way.

Choose carefuly.

And ALWAYS remember the 11th Commandment

I concur with Segara82 - there's three ways to go about this:

You can go to a normal weapon shop. If you declare the item as being of Xeno manufacturing, he'll refuse to buy and/or alert the authorities. You can try to pass it off as something else (there are quite a few exotic materials out there in the galaxy), but it will be hard to convince him - most exotic stuff is in the hand of the military, the AdMech or the nobles. Who of those would willingly part with their weapons to a private party? And as soon as you manage that, you get to the matter of ammo - the store owner will likely notice it's a kind he's never seen before and can't procure. How do you sell someone a gun if you can't reliably provide ammo beyond the first one or two magazines for it?
All in all, it's either going to blow up in your face or fetch an abysmal price.

You can find the local black market, somewhere in the Underhive if you're on a hive world. No problem there with the authorities, assuming the fencer has no problem with dealing in rather hot stuff. However, the price you can get for it is still rather limited - the fixer likely hasn't got the connections to get more ammo or to sell it to collectors.

Finally, there's the cold trade, which is exactly how you'd get optimum prices. They can likely obtain more ammunition and if they can't, they have a few buyers who are merely collectors and not looking for functioning weapons. The problem here will be to actually locate a contact to one of the organizations - they didn't get rich by blabbing about their little secrets to everyone.

I agree the basic issues are as follows:

1)If the weapons are thought to be exotic humans they aren't worth much. They are good, but the limitation of find new ammo makes them not worth much.

2)If the weapon are thought to be Xenos then they are worth a lot to the right person. Most people are likely to report the PCs to the authorities. They will need to locate a dealer in such things. No easy task as if it were easy the dealer would have already been caught by the =][= or the arbiters.

The way I'd handle it is to let the PCs find a shady dealer with a few skill rolls. Then when they sell the items they discover that they have been setup, and are being blackmailed to be double agents. (Otherwise detail recording of them selling the weapons gets delivered to several interested parties....) The blackmailers could be rival inquisitors or even cultists....

If your players are truly determined to make a few bucks off their exotic loot I see no reason to punish them. With a few good Inquiry checks and Peer(Underworld), they'll likely find a buyer willing to pay a reasonable price. Depending on the type of game your running this may already be standard procedure for selling any loot.

Alternatively you can have your players just turn in the equipment to their Inquisitor in exchange for an equal or less amount of goods. It cuts out the middleman by using their bosses personal network and doesn't directly give them any risk. Of course this could lead to other missions as they have proven to their Inquisitor that they're willing to get their hands dirty. This could involve killing off rogue fences, establishing new contacts among the underworld, discreetly obtaining imperial shipments for sale, etc..

this is a Clear cut example, of "How far are you as the game master willing to take this." Selling items like this could be a game altering challenge, with their inquistior either finding out and not caring, or punishing them by sending them on more horrible missions than were originally planned, or garnishing their wages, to even taking the money they made selling and never giving it back.
Even finding a seller could be an adventure in itself, or it could be just as Lord Munchkin said, and a few checks and the weapons change hands with no problems. However there will always be someone watching in that sort of trade. If the weapons dealer gets caught, he could face hefty charges from the police and I've never met a normal person who isn't willing to sell someone they don't know out for not getting in as much trouble. He'd point the finger at anyone, and that group of random oddities ranging from the feral to the techpriest, who hang out with each other in the middle of the city would be hard pressed to avoid that.
Whatever you do, you should make it clear to your players, that selling xenos weapons, is not a normal thing, it's different from shooting some ganger in the face 'cause he looked at you funny, and then taking his shotgun to the pawn shop for a quick throne. It's odd, it's different, and that's enough for anyone in the Warhammer 40k universe to look at you funny. These are cities filled with superstitious, and depending on how much they believe, religious witch criers.

interestingly enough, there's an old short story predicated upon the sale of eldar shuriken catapults on the black market. I believe the scenario/chain of causation would be along the lines of: Acolyte A loots the guns and sells them to B, a black market dealer for a reasonable price, as B knows collectors and other dodgy people who'd pay well. B sells them to C, who can source more ammo from them, but C is the frontman for a proscribed cult (either xenophile or chaotic). C spends some time getting together several stands of the guns, plus sufficient ammo to fight a small war before selling them to D, a gang leader on a hive world (possibly across the sector from where A and B saw them last). D uses them to eliminate all his competitors, and is reliant upon C to provide ammo, and other trinkets. C also introduces them to forbidden artifacts, and eventually indoctrinates them into his cult. At this point, E, one of D's gang leaders becomes significantly uneasy and speaks to F (his confessor), who is worried and passes it up to his superiors until it reaches the ears of inquisitor I, who has E arrested, interrogated and launches a purge on D's stronghold (hopefully catching C). E is then executed.

That's pretty much how I'd play it, inserting A back into the chain somewhere between F and the purge of D, although for extra fun, I might have them try and infiltrate and plant a teleport/voxponder beacon so that the purge/killteam of I can take them out in a suitably precise/demoralising way. Possibly via orbital strike...

Alasseo said:

Great web of deceit and unintended consequence.

But the even more amusing route goes something like: ...until it reaches the ears of inquisitor I, who assigns Acolyte A's team to investigate the situation (which they at the time of the assignment have no idea is linked to their original selling). As Acolyte A's team picks apart the conspiracy they get to 1) somehow discover that it was their own sale that started this mess [maybe one of the cataputs has a distinctive scratch on the casing made when the acolytes were fighting the dire avengers] 2) try to figure out how to unravel, resolve and report on this mess, while 3) putting together a cover up so they don't get pinned with supplying an inssurection against the Imperium with heretical armaments [which I'm pretty sure would be a death penalty offense]

Throw in the Eldar scouts seeking revenge/recovery of the weapons that someone suggested above, and you have yourself a very nice desperate mess for the acolytes to sort out.

Cifer said:

That goes for pretty much every criminal organization there is. Something a few skillrolls to Inquiry and Common Lore (Underworld) should take care of. However, it would be a lot more fun if the GM rolled the Common Lore (Underworld) check in secret, so the PC's won't know if they actually managed to find a true and professional xenos tech dealer or if they accidentally stumbled across some hack who might be willing to pay a handsome buck for the guns, but would turn them over to the authorities in the blink of an eye where he ever to be arrested.

That goes for pretty much every criminal organization there is.

Depends on the scale of the organization and their involvement in crimes interesting to the Adeptus Arbites and the Inquisition - finding some narco syndicate in a lower hive level won't pose much of a problem because noone except for local police forces is looking for them and those usually keep to the middle and upper parts. The cold trade, on the other hand side, is a rather hot (er...) topic with the Arbitrators and the big -=I=- who do have the ressources to follow up leads wherever they go.

I daresay that in our modern world, it would be easier to fence an assault rifle than to fence a nuclear warhead - and xeno weaponry goes more in the second direction in 40k.

Not to mention the fact that you can't just walk up to someone in the Cold Trade and say "I've got some xeno weaponry, how much will you give me for 'em?" They'll probably shoot first and ask questions later. These people hide behind layers of mooks and go-between men. An Inquiry test might, at best, lead you to a small time dealer on the edge of the business. He'll buy it from you... for a fraction of its true worth. He'll then sell it on for twice that to the next guy up the chain, who'll pass it on to someone who knows a guy... etc etc.

Cifer said:

Fencing in general pretty much depends on the contacts you have (regardless of whether you want to sell a nuclear warhead or an assault rifle). If you know people, or know people who knows people who are involved in either a radical political movement, terrorist organisation or para-military forces, then you could probably manage to sell a nuclear warhead. (it's one of those things that these kinds of movements really would like to have, regardless whether they have any actual use for it at the moment)

Assault rifles on the other hand would most likely only be interesting in bulk numbers for such organisations. However, if you know more common criminals or know people who knows people who know more common criminals, then you might be able to sell off the assault rifle.

It all depends on your type of contacts.

... Uhm, I'd appriciate if no one ask why I would know this. Tad bit incriminating subject to discuss.

It obviously comes down to knowing People who know People , but some People are far harder to get to know than other People, to say nothing of the People .

Cifer said:

Well isn't that what skills like Common Lore (Underworld) and Peer (Criminals) and such is supposed to be about? Knowing your way around the "less than legal" elements in a particular area. Knowing who to see and who to ask when you want to sell something dangerous and illegal like xenos weaponry?

It's not that I mind penalties on the skills depending on what you want to sell, it's just that some GM's in this thread seem a bit TOO inclined to simply refuse their players selling xenos weaponry, or they'll just completely screw them over despite the skills and cunning plans that the players might take advantage of.

In my opinion that seems to be a bit stifling for the players. I don't know, perhaps some GM's might need to be reminded that while they sometimes play the role of the PC's Inquisitor, the AREN'T really the PC's Inquisitor.

If they want to do something that they already know would be hard, what's the point of intentionally making the task impossible?

I imaging that Peer (Noble) would come in handy as well. The safest buyer would be someone who sells to wealthy collectors.

Varnias Tybalt said:

As a GM you have to consider whether a task is realistically attainable at all. PC wants to sell xeno weapons for loadsa cash... what kinds of contacts will he need to do that? Does he have those contacts? IMO, having the Inquiry skill and Common Lore (Underworld) and Peer (Criminals) isn't enough to do that. Sell a shipment of stolen lasguns, sure. Sell xeno weaponry? You'd probably need some forbidden lores or Peer (Cold Trade) for that.

Well isn't that what skills like Common Lore (Underworld) and Peer (Criminals) and such is supposed to be about? Knowing your way around the "less than legal" elements in a particular area. Knowing who to see and who to ask when you want to sell something dangerous and illegal like xenos weaponry?

It's not that I mind penalties on the skills depending on what you want to sell, it's just that some GM's in this thread seem a bit TOO inclined to simply refuse their players selling xenos weaponry, or they'll just completely screw them over despite the skills and cunning plans that the players might take advantage of.

In my opinion that seems to be a bit stifling for the players. I don't know, perhaps some GM's might need to be reminded that while they sometimes play the role of the PC's Inquisitor, the AREN'T really the PC's Inquisitor.

If they want to do something that they already know would be hard, what's the point of intentionally making the task impossible?

The skill Logic means you're good at deduction. Still, solving P=NP in an hour is just not doable (with the skill levels a PC can reach - let's not talk about the stats of a Lord Magos hardwired to the cogitators of an entire Forge World). There are tasks that are beyond Very Hard and contacting members of the Cold Trade may be among them. Having Peers, Contacts and roleplaying the search for a while may or may not lower the difficulty to manageable.

Varnias Tybalt said:

As the GM I'm not the Inquisitor. I'm a story teller. Selling off Xenos weapons for profit is a boring story. Selling them off, and getting blackmailed is much more interesting. Of course my PCs know me well enough that they'd most likely ditch the weapons. Or sell them to someone ,then arrest the people who bought the weapon, then try to sell them again.... Also my Inquisitor always knew what the PCs did. Before every briefing they were interogated by psyker under a memory blocking drug. It took them a while to realize that they were losing time while waiting for their boss to show up for the debriefing. Now he didn't know what I knew, and he cared about petty violations of law much less than the PCs knew.

Of course in my game the =][= provides everything you need (not want), and the PCs are generally under cover. (As a result they can't bring a boltgun and carapace any way.) I figure if the PCs boss can order armies, and the destruction of worlds his lackeys don't need to loot the bodies. Now some of the PCs weren't above establishing a slush fund for the party, but their Boss doesn't care as long as they don't stray into heresy or draw to much notice.

Dalnor Surloc said:

Sure, but do you actually provide a chance for them to "win" the story and actually acquire some profit despite the additional challenges springed upon them or do you rather punish the PC's for such "stupid" endavours? (Just curious)

And if your standard modus operandi as a GM is to shaft the PC's whenever they try something risky, don't you think that your style might become a bit "predictable"? (you said yourself that your players probably know you well enough to just ditch the weapons, which seem to hint a bit of "predictability")

Of course anything you decide to do is your prerogative, but somewhere down the line you might have forced your players into always thinking "let's not EVER take ANY risks in-game because we will always suffer for it and never win."

And in my experience, when all the players always feel that they have to play everything safe, with no risk-taking or "bending the rules of the Inquisition" whatsoever is quite... Boring. In fact, a few times I was the ONLY player in my group who actually tried to pursue half-heretical/radical endavours while the rest of them acted like Inquisitorial puritan boyscouts pretty much all the time. And you know, the "Burn teh heretics in teh name of teh Emporer!"-line of thought is fun for a while, but it does get kinda old after a while too.

If one of my players decided that their PC would try to sell some xenos weaponry when I was GM:ing (we take turns in our group in whose GM:ing), I'd take it as a cue from the player. A cue that tells me that he wants to take a great risk of earning some nice profit. Sure, with such risks comes elements of severe danger but also the possibility of getting rich. So I'd probably spring some hard challenges his/her way if he or she tries to do it. But not necessarily make it impossible to get away scot free with a lot of thrones in a briefcase. After all, there are several traders who have been able to sell xenos tech before and have evaded the authorities (even the Inquisition). If they didn't then all these xeno tech induced catastrophes would never occur (but they do, frequently). I don't see why the PC's should be exempt from the same kind of opportunity.

So how do you do it as a GM? Shaft the players all the way, all the time for ever entertaining the idea, or do you actually give them a chance to succeed?

On the flip side, having no consequences for the characters actions leads to no challenge, and therefore again a boring game. As a GM I see no need to go out of my way to screw over the PC's, but neither do I let them just get away with anything they feel like.

Whether or not I'd let PC's get away with something like this sale of Xeno weapons would all come down to how they went about it. If they try to hawk them in the gunshop across the street from the Arbites precinct, then they're screwed (not because I'm out to get them, but because they did something that extraordinarily stupid). If they were reasonably circumspect and careful in finding the right buyer without exposing themselves too much, then decent chance for success.

I can think of several occasions the acolytes in may game have done crazy things and gotten away with them because afterwards they went to great lengths to dispose of the evidence. (In one case using a stolen plasma grenade to slag an entire vehicle full of incrimnating captured weapons and gear; in another murdering an acolyte team from another inquisitor and making sure the bodies wouldn't be found in the deserts/plains of Iocanthos) On other occassions when they have been less than careful things have come around to bite them in the ass. (Getting poisoned and sent on an assassination mission in order to earn the antidote, after rolling into a Ad-Mech temple w/ only 3 men and accusing the Magos of the Sect of being a heretic in his own inner sanctum)

Soooo...the long and short of it is: Should it be possible to get away with selling Xenos gear for a profit behind your Inquisitor's back? Sure

Should it be easy? Probably not

DocIII said:

Has anyone said anything of the sort? Nope.

I don't see letting the PCs sell a few Eldar weapons descretely on the blak market as being totally against the setting. It's not like they are warp tainted or something. Sure a puritan inquisitor might be upset by it. And certainly you wouldn't want to sell it on the open market. The real thing is how you can make it fun. I find that players enjoy a challenge. Defeating a bad guy is nice. Defeating the bad guy who. Shot down your shuttle. Which forced you to spend months traveling over land on foot to the space port. Losing much of your hard won gear. Defeating him is Epic...

General all my campaign have a pattern. The PCs start out scrambling for the basics. Then things go well, and they manage to get ahead and get nice stuff. Then something happens and they lose everything. They work really hard and manage to win back everything they lost and more. It's important for the PCs to win one big regularly, but don't ever let them feel unchallenged. Also let the players revel in being big shots.

For example the my PCs had to leave a hive to cross the ash wastes to a small town out in the wastes. Their caravan got ambushed, and they lost every thing. After some time they made it to the town. Found the guys they were looking for, stole guns and coms and finished their mission. As the need to keep things quiet was gone. (Orbital strikes tend to do that.) Their boss sent a naval gun cutter to help in moping up, and for transport. What did the PCs do. They flashed their creds, and spent several days tracking down the raiders in the guncutter. Once they found them there was some heavy payback with a multilas.... Their Boss's only question about borrowing a navy guncutter for a few days was "Did they deserve it?". After a resounding yes. The debriefing continued....

PS- The other reason none of my PCs in my last group would have looted Xenos hardware for sale is simply as they didn't need the money. They were provided with the equipment they needed, their month pay, and what ever they decided to loot as well. Things like heavy weapons, and power armor weren't useful to them. (If their boss wanted a blunt instrument he used the Sisters, or his Storm Troopers.) Their jobs were either to locate heretics, or do things in a deniable fashion. Half the group either donated most of their month pay or drank it away during downtime. The 2 guys looting stuff ended up putting ~70% of the profits into a party slush fund. (Special gear, high quality replacement limbs, combat drugs and the like) My favorite thing they did was when at the end of a mission they found they had a large supply of drugs. So they located a buyer, sold the drugs, and then turned him in for the reward. (I think they made at least 25,000 for the deal.)