I'm sort of suprised no one has commented on how Knee Thruster can double a big attack's potential by giving it multiple 1.

Why would anyone play Open Road other then to know for sure your going to pass a check?

Eithinis said:

wouldn't you need 7 momentum to captilize that and by that time shouldn't they be dead.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Your blindness will be the death of you. You're thinking too small, Shinji.

And just siding into Omar in my ridiculous Cervy deck is enough to convince me of how ridiculously good he is. I'm already sticking with Chaos and Earth as my main two symbols this format, no question (except mebbe Air Tira or any-symbol Nightmare).

Christie - seven handsize character with Life and All, which are allegedly two of the more dominant symbols in the meta? C'mon, dood.

darklogos said:

It's...Fury of the Ancients. The idea is that it doesn't need momentum.

Immortal-JyNxX said:

Yes and no. I understand where it's coming from. It can only really shine in a limited "card pool", like the current standard. Since there's fewer choices, there's a higher chance of players running a foundation solely for stats. If you have crap in your staging area, that was just there because it had low difficulty/high check and they have foundations with great effects, then (and only then) does it work in your favor.

If i use tekken forces and then blow up the cards I foundations i created do i still have to remove them from the game?

darklogos said:

Zi Mei can blow up 7 Foundations instead of using any momentum...

While not a problem card, Need to Destroy is definitely a card to watch. Look at all the multiples in this set. They almost all give something to the copies. Whats that? Give Blazing Fists another punch multiple to boost the original? Give Spinning Demon another chance to get a character? Double Face Kick gets another throw? Oh, and its basically saying +4 spd, +4 dmg to all of these. Also, it replaces itself with a blank foundation. With Maniacal Laughter feeding your momentum and giving you stuns, oh and all these blow up to feed ALP.

Quick momentum drain counter in all three of these symbols, Her Own Agenda. Might not get the momentum back, but you boost your checks and can then discard theirs.

darklogos said:

That's a rules question, so Antigoth would be the man to give you the official response. Also, if you post it in the Q&A Forum others may be able to benefit from your inquiry.

But no, the card reads "At the end of this turn, remove these face down cards from the game." As long as they are blown up before the end of the turn, they aren't in your staging area to be removed from the game at the end of your turn. It's similar to discarding or adding-back-to-hand a block you retrieved with Primitive Instincts.

As a fun side note, you may notice a certain website is sold out of this card already. I kinda saw that coming, lol.

Bpet said:

Ptssshh card to watch you say??? Need to Destroy is by far the best(IMO) foundation of the set..

Immortal-JyNxX said:

Quoted for almost-truth. As I posted in another thread, i give the slight (personal) edge to Mishima Family Blood Line. Other than that, yeah dude, I predict Need to Destroy is going to ruin many a person's day/night.

...too bad it's rare. I really hate when that happens. Please stop designing cards that are both rare/UR AND destroy themselves as a cost. If a card blows itself up, it should not also be extremely difficult to collect. I'm not talking about Infiltrating type cards, I'm talking about a card that blows itself up for (mostly) non-game altering effect. I.E. almost all the character only abilities on assets from the Warrior's Dream/Flames of Fame sets.

ROTBI said:

I have to agree with Mishima Family bloodline. It makes Jin and Kazyuma super beasts. I would also say look out for unknown son. That card looks like it will make Zhao a waking sleeping giant. Since previously a SW card that did the something similar was only possible on your attack and did not touch attacks. This has none of those stipulations. This card could possibly be one of the key cards of the newfs since it gets rid of trouble cards before they hit the staging area or momentum.

ROTBI said:

Not really, the Search function sucks and it'll get booted down the pages really fast.

darklogos said:

Not really, the card that you are thinking of is Forbidden Lore. It and Twilight Witch where similar except that FL only did non atk cards and TW did any card. Both were only playable during your atk. The problem with US is that it only hits blocks. As there are no reversals that have any of her symbols the only time that your gonna be able to use the effect is...only during your atk. Basically it is a FL that is on the level of TW or higher as it has a block, better CC and can do the same thing that TW would normally be used for. Will it be a great addition to a Death ZD? Sure. Will it wake the sleeping giant that is ZD? Not so much.

Homme Chapeau said:

I'm trying to be positive, dude.

Awsome summery. My goal at the moment to to take Astaroth from Depressingly bad to playable. Its going ok, but I think it'll be a while longer before he's fully fuctional.

Quick couple things for ya shinji.

Ancient Burial doesn't stop King. Ancient burial only hits ABILITIES that reveal hands, the cost is not part of the ability. So King(and the reversal keyword) both can play right through it.

Also, Financial troubles is amazing, but I think with more discard support coming into the game, I think people will be packing more discard hate(and there is some very good discard hate in the block) And trouble's CAN be hit by discard hate actions, which will often mean Game Over to you for trying to draw 2 cards.

For the money Is another card you worried about, I wouldn't be worried about it. It is a very very good card, that loses a ton of oooomppphh i nthe late game, because when it gets negated, you lose the effect AND the foundation, effectively giving up board.

A few of the cards you listed I don't love either(toughest in the universe is scary,war between sisters is a bit much) but most of that other stuff seems fine to me, Wipe the floor? I would be hard pressed to even use that card.

The discard hate in the block is really strong, it will take a small miracle for any of the non-selective discard to see any real play.

failed2k said:

I'm fairly certain that earlier in this thread or in the other tekken discussion thread Antigoth ruled that it is part of the cost to negate is so NO it is not bothered by anti-discard.

Discarding is part of the cost to negate. you are negating a card effect.

Negating stand-off is the same thing. it doesn't trigger torn hero.

Assuming the rules stay consistant I don't believe that the discard will trigger off of troubles.

Note: I think torn hero should trigger off stand off. by the rules as they are written. Stand off is a card, it's using an effect, torn hero is being commited. I don't see how this isn't torn hero getting commited by an opponents card effect.

Cards like Stand Off and Troubles should be worded differently: It's just editing.

Proposed Troubles Eratta:

F Commit: Draw 2 cards
R discard one card: Negate a form played on ~this~ card, Playable by either player, playable while commited this response cannot be negated.

admittedly the R gives the player who owns the card an option to cancel their own effect, but I don't think that is a ton of power creep...

because the R Discard: is pre-colon it removes and irregularity in rules, by clearly being unable to trigger SoulWave* as you are discarding as a cost not a result.

I like the game-design(ers) for UFS, but there are certainly problems with card editing from a rules standpoint. It's easy, as a designer to overlook those things, because you made it, and obviously know what the intention was.Players don't care about intentions, they care about what is going to happen when they are playing in an attempt to put their own faces on cards

How about, instead of "your opponent may discard 1 card to negate this effect," they do something along the lines of "draw 2 cards unless your opponent discards 1 card." This way they could trigger Torn Hero and anti-discard without 'logic errors.'

Shinji, I'm extremely confused as to why you think Lu Chen didn't gain anything from Tekken. EXTREMELY confused.

One with the Rhythm? Use Christie's attacks in him. Done deal?

edit: Also, Relaxing Model is BAD? I could've sworn anything that gives -X speed in the current meta would be kinda nice. Especially in themed decks where most attacks in a deck will share the same keyword (Astrid, anything SC).

Plus... don't you get -1 out the gate? Technically it says the number of cards in the card pool that share a resource with the attack, and well... it shares with itself, right? No "other" inserted there...

Unless they are not meant to trigger them, as previous rulings would suggest.

A basic ruling such as "optional cancelation effects, such as on {Insert Card Here} and {Insert Other Card Here}, are considered costs for the purposes of responses and static text" would solve problems quickly. It would be better than erratas on a large number of cards newly released.

-Tinman

What is all this talk about anti momentum I hear? Attack with fury of the ancients, commit solitary assassin. then attack with another. or a minuette dance.

There are still good ways to generate momentum that are not throws and dont take a turn.

Protoaddict said:

QFT.

What I was saying is that momentum hate on King's stuff is suspect at this point becuase there won't be a lot of momentum to discard, and his abilities trigger off of # of opponents momentum discarded this turn. There isn't a lot of momentum to discard becuase most 'non-conventional' momentum gain block 4 is generated and used almost always in the same enhance phase, or the same turn.

- dut

MegaGeese said:

I laughed.

But rather than explain why, I'd like to commend Shinji on taking the time to put this together. Yes, there have been a lot of specific responses to his omissions and/or shallow analysis of certain parts of block 4. But, I for one have to give him a lot of credit for throwing this together, stimulating discussion and at the very least scratching the surface of the block 4 meta and it's possiblities.

Do I agree with any/all of what he's compiled? No, but parts of it is useful.

I do believe though, that if Shinji takes his early analysis as a starting point and evolves it with some serious playtesting, and by agreeing with others and assimilating other progressive opinions, even those that disagree with him, that Shinji might actually grow as a competitive player. (Part of me is biased, becuase I just want to get an easy round win in against him, and something other than round one, at a tourney ^^ just kidding!)

Seriously, good report. But do write another one after practical experience and time finds its way to you. Until then, the biggest thing I disagree with are your problem cards, they are strong, but there are other cards you have skipped over that are bigger hitters (not problems per se, but that will have a greater 'impact' on the competitive meta than the ones you've listed).

- dut