That eliminates the ability to create upgrades that do just that.

good point, i hope you're right

Also, complaining that you placed them just out of range isn't solved by making the range longer--you're just going to start doing it again once you try and push the limit again.

no the problem is that because of where i generally engage my opponents starfighters. It means one of 2 things that happen

1. i have to increase the speed on my VSD's to 2, which is bad because i can move too quickly and allow rebel ships to get behind me much easier

or

2. my opponent gets the jump on my ties before they get to shoot. and we all know how fast and easily tie fighters fall

having the long range will allow me to move and attack strategically without sacrificing positioning

That eliminates the ability to create upgrades that do just that.

good point, i hope you're right

Also, complaining that you placed them just out of range isn't solved by making the range longer--you're just going to start doing it again once you try and push the limit again.

no the problem is that because of where i generally engage my opponents starfighters. It means one of 2 things that happen

1. i have to increase the speed on my VSD's to 2, which is bad because i can move too quickly and allow rebel ships to get behind me much easier

or

2. my opponent gets the jump on my ties before they get to shoot. and we all know how fast and easily tie fighters fall

having the long range will allow me to move and attack strategically without sacrificing positioning

Uh, no. Having long range would allow you to move and attack without having to be tactical or making a choice. If I could play my TIE Swarm list from long range, X-Wings would never stand a chance. Have you seen the damage that 10 TIEs can do? You do not want that to be doable from Long Range. You could essentially kill a CR90 from anywhere on the board.

That's likely the specific reason for the restricted range. You should have to make those choices as to what can be sacrificed.

so, basically the i have to play with a slow ship and fragile ties, while the rebels get quick moving ships and hard hitting squadrons? seems to me like a good rebel player will win the games every time once we all have a good understanding on how to engage and use movement to your advantage

yes VSD's are very bulky and hit like a truck at close combat. but it's going to get a lot harder to get hits in with a VSD once we're all comfortable with movement. the fighters will be the only thing the empire really has going for it to make up for the lack of movement until we have the raider in our hands to use as a ship blocker w/anti squadron fire to let the VSD's get in close for a kill

so, basically the i have to play with a slow ship and fragile ties, while the rebels get quick moving ships and hard hitting squadrons? seems to me like a good rebel player will win the games every time once we all have a good understanding on how to engage and use movement to your advantage

yes VSD's are very bulky and hit like a truck at close combat. but it's going to get a lot harder to get hits in with a VSD once we're all comfortable with movement. the fighters will be the only thing the empire really has going for it to make up for the lack of movement until we have the raider in our hands to use as a ship blocker w/anti squadron fire to let the VSD's get in close for a kill

At the moment, as soon as the gladiator hits you have a ship that can potentially move "4" with engine techs and a squadron of 3 with expanded hangers.

Gladiator cannot have expanded hangars upgrade (at least according to spoiled cards).

so, basically the i have to play with a slow ship and fragile ties, while the rebels get quick moving ships and hard hitting squadrons? seems to me like a good rebel player will win the games every time once we all have a good understanding on how to engage and use movement to your advantage

yes VSD's are very bulky and hit like a truck at close combat. but it's going to get a lot harder to get hits in with a VSD once we're all comfortable with movement. the fighters will be the only thing the empire really has going for it to make up for the lack of movement until we have the raider in our hands to use as a ship blocker w/anti squadron fire to let the VSD's get in close for a kill

Ties are considered to be far more points efficient anti-squadron than X-wings, and the added speed means you can generally get the jump on enemies

Not to mention you can cheat the **** out of Tarkin with Liasons, giving you on demand squadron commands or navigations

When Wave 1 hits, we get the gladiator. The gladiator is fairly speedy, going up to 3, and can equip engine techs but unlike the Neb or Corv you can take the Demolisher title to abuse the hell out of them (plus, with launchers, your front arc shot will most likely oneshot a CR-90, or a neb without brace).

Then there's Tie Interceptors (speed 5 fighters) and the corrupter title for bombers (speed 4 to speed 5)

Or you get to just run more than 1 Victory at 300 points and use positioning to force the enemy's hand, reducing the impact of their superior speed

so, basically the i have to play with a slow ship and fragile ties, while the rebels get quick moving ships and hard hitting squadrons? seems to me like a good rebel player will win the games every time once we all have a good understanding on how to engage and use movement to your advantage

yes VSD's are very bulky and hit like a truck at close combat. but it's going to get a lot harder to get hits in with a VSD once we're all comfortable with movement. the fighters will be the only thing the empire really has going for it to make up for the lack of movement until we have the raider in our hands to use as a ship blocker w/anti squadron fire to let the VSD's get in close for a kill

Ties are considered to be far more points efficient anti-squadron than X-wings, and the added speed means you can generally get the jump on enemies

Not to mention you can cheat the **** out of Tarkin with Liasons, giving you on demand squadron commands or navigations

When Wave 1 hits, we get the gladiator. The gladiator is fairly speedy, going up to 3, and can equip engine techs but unlike the Neb or Corv you can take the Demolisher title to abuse the hell out of them (plus, with launchers, your front arc shot will most likely oneshot a CR-90, or a neb without brace).

Then there's Tie Interceptors (speed 5 fighters) and the corrupter title for bombers (speed 4 to speed 5)

Or you get to just run more than 1 Victory at 300 points and use positioning to force the enemy's hand, reducing the impact of their superior speed

it's not the jump on the enemies that's the problem. it's making use of them after you get the jump on them that's the problem. because to make full use out of them you need to send them in first and do as much damage as you can to their fighters. and to do this you usually need to send them out of range for the next engagement. meaning that those rebel ships that fired back are going to get a secondary round after to clean up your ties to minimal numbers if your opponent was smart and is using squadron command intelligently.

the trade off you make for getting the jump on rebel fighters is you usually end up in range of anti squadron fire of at least 1 Neb-B

i've played this scenario out a few different times now and it seems to boil down to one of a few different options

either i send in my fighters early to get the drop, and lose a lot back in the process

I hold back to keep them in range, in which case the rebels get the first shots and kill off a good number of my ties

or finally my VSD's end up taking the hits from the Squadrons instead of my ties which gives their ships an easier time at focus firing down a VSD

all of these seem like bad choices to make to me

it's possible that more variety of fighters may help with this. but i really don't think the Gladiator is going to be good enough to do what you claim it to do; at least not cost efficiently. I believe that will be what the raider will do for the Imperial side

a decently loaded Gladiator alone is going to be worth almost 1/3 of your points. do you really want it to be cannon fodder? i sure don't

TIEs with Howlrunner roll more dice than X-Wings. On top of that, you're talking as if the only options are "Send the TIEs out too far!" and "Don't send the TIEs out at all!" What about the third option of "Let the X-Wings come closer, and THEN send in the TIEs"? I mean, its not like the X-Wings magically go from out of range to adjacent, and you're also missing the fact that if the X-Wings got launched all the way to your VSD, they're probably out of range of their own command vessels. At which points the TIEs swoop in and blow them to pieces, and the VSD repairs a bit and completely shrugs off the damage. At which point the Rebels have no anti-fighter defense, and your TIEs can pick them apart fairly easily.

A single round of X-Wing fire, which from Rebels is likely to be 3 or 4 squadrons given the low Squadron value? Not going to even get through the shields of a VSD.

In what galaxy is a Gladiator going to be running you 100 points (1/3rd of a list)? Are you really expecting to be putting 40 plus points worth of upgrades on a ship that only cost mid-50s to low-60s to start?

I'm not even sure if you could reasonably make it cost 100 points given it's upgrade slots, let alone that be your consistent or optimal build for it.

No you shouldn't be able to support both the initial and subsequent rounds of Squadron combat while maintaining ideal positioning of your Ships. That is a tactically boring game you want to be playing.

TIEs with Howlrunner roll more dice than X-Wings. On top of that, you're talking as if the only options are "Send the TIEs out too far!" and "Don't send the TIEs out at all!" What about the third option of "Let the X-Wings come closer, and THEN send in the TIEs"? I mean, its not like the X-Wings magically go from out of range to adjacent, and you're also missing the fact that if the X-Wings got launched all the way to your VSD, they're probably out of range of their own command vessels. At which points the TIEs swoop in and blow them to pieces, and the VSD repairs a bit and completely shrugs off the damage. At which point the Rebels have no anti-fighter defense, and your TIEs can pick them apart fairly easily.

A single round of X-Wing fire, which from Rebels is likely to be 3 or 4 squadrons given the low Squadron value? Not going to even get through the shields of a VSD.

did you even read my statement? i stated 1 of 3 options that generally happens. 2 of which hurt you more than the rebel player and the other leaves your fighters vulnerable when left out of range of squadron command

TIE pop like Flies. and i'm pretty sure i'll be calling them "Flies" from now on. can't tell you on how many occasions a single squadron of x-wings one shots a squadron of Ties, and yet it takes 2-3 tie squadrons to take down a single X-wing squadron. closer to 2 with howlrunner leading the charge. and yet you still need a bit of dice luck on your side to do even that

In what galaxy is a Gladiator going to be running you 100 points (1/3rd of a list)? Are you really expecting to be putting 40 plus points worth of upgrades on a ship that only cost mid-50s to low-60s to start?

I'm not even sure if you could reasonably make it cost 100 points given it's upgrade slots, let alone that be your consistent or optimal build for it.

No you shouldn't be able to support both the initial and subsequent rounds of Squadron combat while maintaining ideal positioning of your Ships. That is a tactically boring game you want to be playing.

don't act foolish

they start at 62 points for the better of the two, add in a few upgrades it easily gets to 80 points which is **** well close enough to 1/3 of your list. tell me, what other 20-30pt ship do you plan to field?

Don't act foolish? You're already drawing conclusions on what is going to work and what is going to be worth running without even playing a game with it or having a relative picture of what upgrades are even available, let alone effective.

I understand it to be a habit of yours, to jump to conclusions, but give it a rest.

Don't act foolish? You're already drawing conclusions on what is going to work and what is going to be worth running without even playing a game with it or having a relative picture of what upgrades are even available, let alone effective.

I understand it to be a habit of yours, to jump to conclusions, but give it a rest.

i draw my conclusions based upon my experience

I get the gameplay implications, but medium is too short of a range. If i can put gunnery on a target at long range, then i would think i can communicate clearly with a fighter squadron at that range

I'm not sure you do. This is a tabletop game, not a tabletop science fantasy warfare realism simulator. Maybe the gameplay balance isn't quite in sync with how this could work in reality of it weren't complete fantasy, but that's ok because it's just a game. Large starships shouldn't be less maneuverable than small starships in space, but gameplay says they be. Gameplay considerations are everything about how the game actually operates.

Your experience is with a glorified demo game, at best. That's what all of our experience is at this point. Do you not realize that? Even with two Core Sets at 300 points we aren't even playing the real game let alone making actual choices about our builds.

Both sides are missing Ship types, Squadron types, and most of the worthwhile upgrades. The Imperials in particular don't have a Squadron capable of threatening Ships in a real manner.

At 300 points we are all stuck presently shoving updates on to Ships solely just to use up points. Are we really assuming that is going to be an effective manner in kiting out Ships, adding 50+% thier cost in upgrades?

Right now with 1 core I'm not having any trouble using my TIEs with Howlrunner to mess up Xwings. Using a squadron command, token (thanks Tarkin!) and expanded hangers I can move Howlrunner, and 4 TIEs. That setup chews through enough Xwings before they have the chance to recover.

The mistake is trying to preserve your TIEs. Lock the Xs down, and gang beat them. If you lose every TIE, but kill the Xs you're up on points, and you've eliminated the only threat that your VSD can't deal with.

It's a balance thing with an emphasis on strategy.

You need to keep a certain range between ships and fighters. This forces you to plan and maneuver accordingly.

For balance. Could you imagine a group of small ships that can actively avoid the enemy ships while still issuing commands to fighter squadrons from anywhere? If you knocked out their support, you could spend the rest of the time avoiding direct engagements and just using your fighters to soften up or finish off targets.

outside of the realm of the original topic, let's all remember that the coreset is balanced for a maximum of 180 points according to ffg

You try to force that into 300 points and poor General D is just going to be befuddled with all the strangely defensive upgrades while Tarkin chortles to Victory (heh) with both liasons available on two incredibly imposing ships

wave 1 is going to turn the game on its head with the new ships/squadrons/upgrades available, and with new squadrons and squadron specific titles (such as the corrupter or yavaris) becoming available I think we can all be thankful for the limitations on the squadron command

Also, with unlimited range, you now effectively have a squadron value of all the ships combined. Two VSD's or even a VSD and GSD or a Mk II and some Neb's would have an effective squad rating of 6-8 if range didn't matter.

As it is now, the squadron rating of each ship matters because you're limited to what ships are valid targets of the command.