I thought I'd share this, since it is pretty insane.

We were at

Overlord: 127 - Players: 71

As the party went into the Copper Legendary dungeon. All the party now has left is the last gemstone room (middle one) and they're on a portal all going to town from one of the other gemstone rooms.

The score currently stands:

Overlord: 214 - Players: 100

Since the first dungeon level the following powers are in play:

Brilliant Commander, Evil Genious.

I, as the overlord, have 8 cards in hand and 16 in the deck (which has run out once on this level)

The Party each have 3-4 feat cards, very few copper items (as Crushing blow has been place trice in this dungeon).

There are 6 minions waiting for them at the stairs to the last Gemstone cache.

Looks like you are playing something wrong because :

You can only have one power card in play at copper level, and Lts can't reinforce legendaries (no way you can have evil genius and another power)

Crushing blow is limited to one copy, and heroes are cast out of a dungeon if you run out of deck twice, no way you can have played Crushing Blow thrice.

Bob-Morane said:

Bob-Morane said:

Nope, the heroes are kicked out if the OL cycles the deck twice during one level , not dungeon. (Latest FAQ, page 9) In theory, the OL could cycle his deck four times during a legendary dungeon.

NoNamium said:

This is eerily similar to our current campaign. The score was OL: 132 / Heroes: 55 when they entered the copper legendary dungeon. They have completed 3/4 of the final level and the score sits at OL: 236 / Heroes: 86. I was able to get Evil Genius played on the first level and Trap Master on the second level. Getting Evil Genius out early in a Rumor or Legendary dungeon where you know the heroes will be pushing to do the entire dungeon is rough on the heroes. I have cycled the OL deck three times during the dungeon. I have over 140 conquest to spend once they exit the dungeon. It's going to take many game weeks to spend it all.

edroz said:

Just for reference can you tell me where the heroes got their 30 conquest?

granor said:

Normal places. Glyphs, killing level leaders, chests with no treasures, etc.

By level they gained:

Level 1: 7 (Finding dungeon, glyph, level leader, no treasure)

Level 2: 5 (Glyph, level leader)

Level 3: 6 (Glyph, level leader, no treasure)

Legendary level: 13 (Glyphs, level leaders)

@edroz: I have a question on this for you. Your heroes have given away about 100 CT to the overlord in this one dungeon. How strategicly feasible is this? By the time they actually do finish, t will be closer to turning to gold so they would have very little time to get the silver dungeon in. They entered with a total CT score of 187 and now are still in there with the score at 322. Is the copper level Legendary reward so great that it warrants this kind of thumping?

Would it not have been better to flee before this?

All theoretical as I have yet to play a legendary dungeon (my group is victim to continuous campaign restarts, due to wrong rules, overly long breaks, etc..)

I don't think the Copper legendary reward is worth all the trouble his heroes are going through. The reward is several thousand gold, which is nice for the heroes, but isn't going to do them much good if they kick-start the campaign to near gold when they get out. In my opinion, the only legendary that is a must get through is the silver legendary area, as it allows heroes to pick up vital skills they could have lost due to a razed city.

This is our second campaign. First ended in the usual Tamalir raze in early silver. Although the heroes started the second one well, I caught up with silver eldritch and treachery. I had crushing blow active during their rumor dungeon attempt and cleaned out three major weapons. After that the plan was for them to hit the secret training and then the copper dungeon. Bad luck on the way to training resulted in an encounter with silver Shades in the Box Canyon and resulted in a TPK.

Sent back to Tamalir, very low on funds and without time to get to the training and the copper dungeon, they changed their plan. They were going to cleanout the copper dungeon for the cash and then head to the training. We know that the campaign would get to silver during the copper dungeon, we just didn't know we would be past the mid point to gold.

As for me as the OL, I could probably easily raze Tamalir again with my three lieutenants, 5 points of treachery, and soon to be completely upgraded monsters. However, just for sake of curiosity, I'm trying to see if I can win via the plot or final battle (Sorcerer King). Tamalir raze - been there, done that.

Yeah the tamalir raze seems way too easy to win. It was very frustrating to my players. Anybody found a good way to prevent or hinder this condition?

Chernobyl said:

Skilling up. Specifically "Wind Pact".

This is a must-have skill unfortunately, without it you're toast because of "Dance of the monkey god"/"Animate Weapons" + 15 threat merrick Farrow combo.

otherwise, keep your heroes at a point where they cannot kill themselves with their own weapons. Or take of weapons after using them each round (its annoying I know), but this does not help against "DOTMG" however, but this also costs 3 trap treachery.

Disarm (and the other feat card I can't remember is also a method.

On another note.

The dungeons my party went through, was: (silver Eldritch, 3 - trap trachery, 2 event treachery, 4 cards removed from deck, sniper skeletons)

24. Eternal Prisoner (4 CP gained by party)

10. Ancient Library (6 CP gained by party)

15. The Crypt (9 CP gained by party)

Legendary level (10 CP gained by party ... so far)

The three dragons in the Copper Legendary dungeon are so hard for a party at that stage that it's simply not worth it, it's pretty ridiculous. We quit our campaign, at that point as the heroes had about the same experience described here, they were getting creamed, and the Crushing Blows (before the FAQ/errata limited them to 1) were just too much.

Columbob said:

I can understand why they wuit, but, as an overlord myself, i think this kind of whinging and simply quitting is done way too much. As an overlord, I had to "endure" 3 7-hour sessions where everything was clearcut and just a matter of time before they could kill my avatar.

I used the experience to try to do my best and learn from the experience.

The same kind of gesture should be extended to the overlord, and anyone simply quitting because "things look bleak", isn't deserving of playing in a campaign. Actually I'm of the opinion that no matter how dire it's looking for the party, they've always got a shot at killing the avatar, and I think that with just the chests in the avatar dungeon and a few skills+upgrades, they should be able to turn things around with a bit of luck.

Quitting in silver is waaaay too early to clearly tell who will win.

So before players simply quit, try to do your best, view it as a challenge and give the same chance to the overlord as he would give you.

No one would accept the same kind of behaviour from the overlord. When he for once has a chance of winning, he should be allowed to finish.

Frankly, if both sides know what they're doing, this game is very much in the favor of the party, and with even gameplaying skill the overlord has less than 15% chance of winning in my opinion. (This may be adjusted by the choice of avatar and characters/skill in the beginning)

heh, our current campaign, we were blitzing nicely, staying a little ahead of the OL and getting some nice treasures. Score was OL - 16, Heroes - 20. We decided since the OL hadn't upgraded his monsters yet, let's hit the Legendary dungeon! We stayed above ground (traveling and the like) until score was 21-20, and then went into the dungeon all the way down. No monster upgrades, no Treachery, etc. The score at the end was 56 to 45, OL in the lead, but it was *definately* worth it! Heroes came out with all that loot and headed off to the Secret Trainer

-shnar

shnar said:

Did the same thing in my campaign, worked out quite well. So long as the dragon is still copper, it's not so bad, was able to take him down in 2 turns easy. on the third dragon just sacked zyla for the 1000 gold.

running out of a deck twice throws the heroes out of the dugeon? What page is that on!!

Thanks

Age

It's in the FAQ in the support section.

terrafex said:

Twice during a dungeon LEVEL. That little word makes a big difference.

NoNamium said:

I quite agree, especially if it is not the first campaign of the hero team and they have already won once: in that case, "Let's make it a challenge!" is indeed the attitude they should have. If they are beginning players however, their despair is understandable, because they will see no way out of the hole.

One of these days I'll post something on that subject, on the structure of an RTL campaign and on its alleged lack of balance issues which are, in my opinion, part of this great game.

NoNamium said:

Just a reminder...

Without wishing to restart the whole argument again, if you find DoTMG and AW too powerful in Lt encounters then you have a fair reason to not allow their use.
Technically, both state they affect Heroes in the dungeon, which of course, being an encounter, is no heroes at all.

DotMG
Play at the start of your turn. Each hero in the dungeon must roll a power die. If the result is a blank, nothing happens to that hero. ...
AW
Play at the start of your turn. Each hero in the dungeon must roll a power die. If the result is a blank, nothing happens to that hero. ...

There are good arguments that they should be countable anyway as of course there was no 'not-dungeon' gaming around when they were printed. The German version changes the text (and came out after RtL) so they are allowed in that version at least.
Basically that means you can take a call to play RAW (english) (which is probably not as intended), or RAW (german)/House rule as you see fit.

I really dislike that they truly make Wind Pact an absolutely must have skill, but fact is it is pretty much a must have anyway. And certainly feats can mitigate a lot of the OL's options now in encounters.

Frankly, even Dark Charms have limited affect in encounters in my games now now. Basically they prevent Guard orders, since the heroes are almost never equipped with decent weapons at the end of their turn!

NoNamium said:

+1, outstanding post

edroz said:

You mean i could have had two powers in play all those copper dungeons and i simply discarded all of them after playing the first one

Well, thanks for the clarifications. I had misread two important rules.

Corbon said:

What did Wind Pact do again? I don't think we've used it in our games, bypassing for seemingly other/better skills.

And what do you mean by not having any decent weapons equiped? Are your heroes spending MPs on their turns to unequip stuff every turn?

-shnar

Windpact removes two cards from the overlord's hand IIRC, which in LT battles is basically the whole hand.