Stun
... If the figure was a hero, the hero does not receive a full action this turn . Instead, the hero may only move a number of spaces up to his speed or make one attack or place one order. A stunned hero cannot use any ability that requires advancing, running, battling, or readying (except for placing a hero order).

So...
Can a stunned hero who chooses the "only make one attack" option spend MP?
In other words, does he get a "half action", which consists of (1 attack and 0MP), (X MP and 0 attacks) or (1 Order placement, zero attacks and 0 MP), or is the restriction greater than that. Only move, only attack or only place an order?
In the strictest sense it could be argued that if the hero chose the attack/place order options then he might be able to accrue MP from elsewhere (fatigue, items) but is unable to spend it - he can only attack/place order.

I recall dimly that 'Battle' originally used this sort of wording but was changed - which could make this either a faulty remnant rule or a deliberately not changed rule. More likely a remnant faulty rule, but still, it is what it is.

In an Advanced RtL campaign stunning heroes is basically pointless under the 'half action' variant (which is the instinctive answer, but not what the literal reading is). They have bucketloads of fatigue, additional MP from 'other' items, multiple bonus attack opportunities fro Rapid Fire, Quick Casting, Cleaving etc.

Opinions? (and reasonings, if any?)

FAQ page 4:

Q: Can stunned heroes perform movement actions (such as drinking a potion)?
A: Yes, if the stunned hero chooses to receive movement points rather than attacking or placing an order. A stunned hero can also freely spend fatigue for movement points.

AoD rules page 5:

A stunned hero now effectively receives one half action instead of his normal action, so he could choose to concentrate instead of moving, attacking, or placing an order.

I think the key word in the original stunned rules is not "only" but "instead." You get a half-action instead of a full action, but you can still do other stuff that you can normally do during your turn.

Fatigue is your friend when stunned.

Antistone said:

+ 1

Antistone said:

The 'instead' word actually strengthens the cannot spend MP if attacking argument. The Stun rules from all sets do not mention a half action. They say that instead of receiving a full action the hero can do a, b, or c. SO it is definitely not a partial/reduced action, it is a replacement thing. You replace the ability to spend MP, do attacks, place orders, in number according to what you receive from declaration and accumulation, with the ability to spend MP, do 1 attack or place an order (or concentrate from AoD).

AoD adds d (use a concentrate order) and I don't think the half action terminology is official as such - it is an AoD convention used for explanations ('effectively') and the entire point of the section on page 5 is to add in option d.

I did miss both quotations though, so thanks. Not sure how on the FAQ one in particular.

The FAQ one doesn't necessarily help though, because the first part is conditional on making the Move choice and the second
a) could be referencing the first conditional answer ('also' - especially given the penchant for answering exactly and only the question asked without considering wider implications of the answer) and
b) (weakly) doesn't reference spending the MP, only spending the fatigue to get the MP. (yes yes, very weak, however a) is very important).
However the 'freely' does make it more likely that it should apply in all circumstances.

Still, I guess on balance that there is maybe enough accumulated evidence overall. We don't have strong enough evidence that the part Antistone bolded is referencing the first part of that answer to rule it out as a 'general statement'.
I still feel, particularly for RtL, that it would be better the other way, but that doesn't make it so.

I'm not really convinced yet (either way). Is it one for the the next round of questions to FFG or am I just really being dense here?

"Fatigue is your friend when stunned"... that is the majority of what I am questioning. Is it? Really?

Shmoozer said:

Well, if the emboldened part is a general statement rather than a continuing reference to the conditional part, then the two parts of the statement contradict each other.

A stunned hero should be able to do movement actions (such as drinking a potion) even when choosing the attack/place order option if he can freely spend fatigue to gain MP in all circumstances. Ye the first part of the answer clearly indicates that he can not.
The more I look at it the more I think that the emboldened part is referencing the first part ('if the stunned hero chooses to receive movement points') and is not a general statement covering all 3 (4 with AoD) options.

Which leads me even more to the conclusion that if you choose the attack/place order/concentrate option that is all you get and you are unable to spend any MP you might accrue from various sources.

Still, most likely answer is that it is just the usual standard of rules writing.

Corbon said:

It's the question that is wrong in this case. It should have been "Can stunned heroes use movement points in addition to taking their half action (such as spending a fatigue to drink a potion or move)?"

Using "movement action" just continues to confuse the issue

Hah, I did not know they could do anything. I just put the stun counter on them and left them be until they basically died(from getting damage and stunned yet again) or the other characters killed the boss etc.

It's good to know that they can attack, move, drink potions etc! Now they can move out of the way for the other characters and get those stun tokens off!

Oboewan said:

I don't think so. In this case movement action clearly refers to the things that you do with MP that are not movement (drink potions, open doors/chests, jump over pits etc) and that are specifcally called movement actions. I don't think it has any relation to a sort of ovement half action vague terminology.
So the question is precise and accurate, because since the wording of stun uses the old (wrong) 'move spaces equal to your movement' wording instead of 'gain MP equal to your movement' it is unclear whether MP can be spent for movement actions.
It's not a bad question, it just doesn't reference the question I am making.

And the answer makes things even more confused for my question. On the one hand you clearly cannot do movement actions unless you chose the 'move' stun option, yet on the other hand you can always spend fatigue to get MP (assuming that that statement is not only referencing the first part which limits the answer to when choosing the move/stun option.

I believe the intent of the rule (however accurate that may be) is that if a model does not choose the movement half-action, then if they can gain MP via fatigue or other means, then they can spend it on things as normal. However, the language of the FAQ ruling is muddy at best, and it could very well mean the opposite of what I think they meant.

I see what you're saying and see how I was looking at it askew. If the stunned hero chooses a "move" half-action he gains MPs = to his speed and can do whatever (move, drink a potion, etc..) I think it's clear that the bold text is referring to any stunned hero not "A Stunned hero who has decided to chose the "move" half-action". If they wanted it to refer to the previous state, they would have said " THAT hero....." and the "Also" and "Freely" lend themselves to a more general statement

WIth Descent and many other games, I tend to lead towards a generic interpretaion unless something specific is mentioned. Because they didn't specity "That hero" or "A stunned hero choosing the "move" half-action", I see no reason to assume that the bold sentence doesn't refer to all stunned heros.

I'm going with the -Regardless of WHICH half-action the stunned hero chooses to take, he can freely spend fatique to gain MPs- interpretation

Sometimes I wish I had a direct link to Kevin Wilson's brain just so I can get answers to things like "What exactly did you intend when you wrote xxxxxx?" But then I think it might just be a bit too scary, even for me

Corbon said:

False. The first part just says "if," not "if and only if." The two sentences cover two sufficient conditions for being able to perform movement actions (having MP from your action, and having MP from fatigue), neither of which is a necessary condition.

The answer reads much better if they're separate, as well. Saying that you can spend fatigue for movement reads awkwardly if you're discussing a special case in which you just said that you already have movement; it would be more natural to say that you can spend fatigue for more movement if that was the intent. Admittedly, the Descent writers are hardly known for choosing good wording, but every argument you've made so far is based on a tenuous connection to precise wording, so there you go.

Corbon said:

You're confusing yourself. The relevant sentence is the one that says "instead, you can only do X, Y, or Z." The only possible defensible basis for your proposed interpretation is if you interpret that to mean:

A. "'X, Y, or Z' is an exhaustive list of everything you can do while stunned; nothing else of any sort is allowed"

Everyone else agrees that it would be better to read it as meaning:

B. "X, Y, and Z are the only new options you get to replace the ones we explicitly took away in the previous sentence"

The word "instead" strongly supports reading B, because it ties this sentence more closely to the previous sentence. Other rulings, like the ones I quoted, are also completely consistent in supporting reading B.

If you admit that this sentence means B, then the argument is over, because this is the only rule you have presented that could possibly be read as prohibiting you from spending fatigue while stunned--and obviously, if it's not explicitly forbidden, it's allowed by default, just like it's allowed by default when you're dazed, burning, cursed, wounded, or drinking water.

Furthermore , reading A excludes the ability to spend fatigue during your turn even if you choose the movement half-action--the only way this works is if that is a global "only" that excludes absolutely everything else you could ever do. Which means that even if you read the second sentence in the FAQ answer as being a modification of the first, it's still a direct contradiction of your interpretation. It would have to be completely erroneous (rather than merely misleading or poorly worded) in order for you to possibly be right about the stun rules.

Corbon said:

The half-action terminology is sufficiently official for them to have re-used it on the reprinted Leadership skill card.

The AoD rule flat out says "a stunned hero receives one half-action instead of his normal action." This is either further evidence that the original stun rule meant B all along, or it's a sloppy mistake contradicting the previous rule. Descent writers do make that sort of mistake, but it's further strong evidence that reading B is the correct one.

But if you're still not convinced, let's throw another supporting rules reference at you:

FAQ page 4:

A Transformed hero may not declare any action. He may still use any skills that are appropriate (e.g., Acrobatic, Telekinesis) and may spend fatigue for extra movement points . A Transformed hero who is stunned may only move (i.e., he must choose the “only move” option for being stunned, not the “only attack” option), which in most cases has no effects beyond those of being Transformed .

So that's three separate rulings that must all be flat-out wrong in order for your favored interpretation of stun to be correct. And it was definitely the less plausible reading even before that. Unless you can find some clear reference somewhere that indisputably supports your position, I think this is one of the clearest resolutions we've had to any debated rule in a long time.

Oh, one additional comment:

Corbon said:

No matter how much other stuff they can do while stunned, they can still perform one less half-action than they could if you didn't stun them. And if they have any of numerous skills that rely on specific actions, it hurts them even more. Stun is still clearly one of the most powerful status effects in vanilla, and while I still haven't played RtL, I'd wager it's still one of the most powerful there, too.

None of the other status effects in the game completely cripples your character like you think stun ought to. If you get dazed, or burned, or poisoned, you don't suddenly lose 80% of your usefulness--does that make those effects all pointless, too? The closest thing is Web, and Web, unlike Stun:

• Allows heroes to function at essentially full effectiveness in many circumstances (as long as there's a monster or two within attack range)
• Has a chance to end before it does anything at all
• Has a variety of skills and items that make highly effective counters to it (Telekinesis, Ring of Freedom, etc.)
• Was the only status effect specifically weakened in Road to Legend

I think your standards for what an effect has to do in order to be meaningful are insanely high.

Antistone said:

Q: Can stunned heroes perform movement actions (such as drinking a potion)?
A: Yes, if the stunned hero chooses to receive movement points rather than attacking or placing an order. A stunned hero can also freely spend fatigue for movement points

Sorry, but "if X rather than Y" clearly indicates an 'if and only if' (or if X but not if Y) to me. Can it be seen any other way?

Your XYZ following arguments rely on it not being an 'if and only if' so are addressed or not by this point.

Antistone said:

err, bollocks?
If the second sentence is a modification of the first then it merely says that a Stunned hero who chooses the movement option can also still spend fatigue for extra MP. Misleading or poorly worded, yes, outright erroneous - I can't see why.

Antistone said:

The AoD half action system hasn't been modified elsewhere since, but it is also purely restricted to AoD. Is there any single card or rule not directly from that expansion that uses this terminology? Even the reprinted Leadership card is from AoD.
Meanwhile, although the AOD rules tells us that a stunned hero gets a half action, all the more recent rules tell use the original stun wording. Most indicative, RtL, which unlike any other rule set does make allowances for having multiple expansions, uses the original stun rules and does not give stunned heroes a half action.
You also conveniently missed out the 'effectively' part of the quote from AoD pg 5. So AoD actually says that it is like the heroes get a half action, because they can only choose one thing, not that they actually get a half action.

I think 'strong evidence' is somewhat overstated.

Antistone said:

One ruling I think you have gotten flat wrong due to missing an inconvenient part. IMO it is the clearest indication anywhere. If, ...rather than ...
One supportive ruling from an expansion that is missing part of the quotation, is specifically under the rules for the revised AoD specialist revised Ready action (prolonged actions) and is not followed in subsequent rulesets.
One ruling which is not even relevent. The hero is a monkey, therefore he can only choose the 'only move' option if stunned. The hero/monkey can spend fatigue for extra movement points. The her/monkey can still do this if the stun rule is reinterpreted. There is no difference.

I really get the impression of a lack of openness at looking at the evidence here.
It's not a 'favoured interpretation' that I am arguing for. I've found some evidence that a different interpretation than the common one might be supported - largely due to a FAQ answer more than anything else. So far the 'evidence' against the faq conclusion has been woefully inadequate.

Antistone said:

Ok, in late RtL I do think that a different interpretation of Stun would benefit the game (so in this particular instance you could call it a 'favoured interpretation' - not because I desparately want it to be true but because I think it would benefit the game).

Typically in late RtL the heroes, while stunned (under the old interpretation) can move 4-6 spaces (fatigue) while attacking 2-5 times (Cleaving, Quick Casting or Rapid Fire are ubiquitous skills by then). Add in another 5-6 spaces of movement with a fatigue potion, not to mention items. That is using a single stun 'half action' (attack obviously). Using silver or gold weapons and upgraded dice a stunned hero can open a door, walk into a room and clear it (frequently even of diamond monsters) more often than not. Or choose the move action and move 10-15 spaces to get out a portal for example. or a Ready action and move 4-6 spaces to a glyph with an Invisibility potion and a Dodge order.
Stun is basically pointless most of the time.
That is experience, not just analysis.

In contrast, web actually works and is brilliant (on non melee heroes), despite being weakened..
2/3rds of the time the hero can't move - Telekinesis is unavailable, Ring of Freedom is a low priority item when multiple 'others' are available for all heroes and is rarely, if ever in play by the time Gold items are around, and that leaves only a single skill (Ox tattoo) self-operating on a single hero (obviously not the target!). There are rarely enough monsters around for the hero to still be able to operate effectively because most gold parties can virtually clear most dungeons in a turn anyway and no monster that stuns will be anywhere near the target if at all possible (upgraded razorwings have 12-14 movement and medusas have long enough range and small enough footprints to easily hide behind a corner or obstacle.
Further, the heroes are much faster in Gold level due to higher fatigue, better equipment and better skill combos. So stopping them moving is even more powerful than usual. A single well placed web can double or triple the amount of time a gold level group of heroes takes to clear a dungeon level. And some.

Dazed has power due to the fact that it can frequently have multiple tokens on, which all operate together, heavily reducing a monsters attack dice. It still does this.
Burn has power because it gets through armour and has the possibility of continued damage. It still does this.
Poison discourages healing leaving a hero actually vulnerable to getting killed. It still does this.
Stun's function is to reduce the options available to a hero. I don't find it does this very much in mid-late RtL.

Again, this is experience talking, not just analysis.

It isn't just in late RtL. Even in Vanilla a stunned hero can still, for example, move about the same as a normal move with fatigue and then attack. It is only if the hero wants to use specific Order aligned skills that any major penalty comes in. Insanely high? I think not. Move, Attack or Place Order. What is so bad about that?
Anyway, this is just why I don't think the 'change' to stun would be a bad thing. Not why I think it could/should change.

Stun
...If the figure was a hero, the hero does not receive a full action this turn. Instead, the hero may only move a number of spaces up to his speed or make one attack or place one order. A stunned hero cannot use any ability that requires advancing, running, battling, or readying (except for placing a hero order).

FAQ page 4:

Q: Can stunned heroes perform movement actions (such as drinking a potion)?
A: Yes, if the stunned hero chooses to receive movement points rather than attacking or placing an order. A stunned hero can also freely spend fatigue for movement points.

From my point of view a stunned hero can attack and drink a potion.

Explanation:

In the rules book, it is said that a Hero cannot perform an action which are:

- Run -> move + move

- Battle -> attack + attack

- Advance -> move + battle OR battle + move OR move + battle + move

- Ready -> move + order OR battle + order OR order + move OR battle + order

Drinking a potion is not a part of any action available. For me it's means that you can drink a potion whenever you want during your turn if you have enough MP.

Spend fatigue point to gain extra MP is not a part of any action available so you can also spend you fatigue to gain MP and then drink a potion.

I have always read the original rule book to state then when a hero is stunned they can do only 1 of the following: attack, move, or ready action. Anytime the movement action was chosen the heros may then access their MPs (equal to the value on the character card) to do whatever the MPs would allow them to do. While making the movement action fatigue points are available to spend for gaining additional MPs.

Caladorn said:

Why just while making the movement action? Fatigue is always available to spend for gaining additonal MPs. (Except when webbed of course)

Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one
fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently
taking the battle action. This may be done as often
as the hero desires. Movement points gained in this
manner are spent just like normal movement points.

I understand that while stunned hero players will do an attack or ready an action. In either case spending fatigue for MP is always an option. Does that mean I had to mention that as well? Perhaps a drawn out break down of all options a player has while stunned (this would seem to get very technical and confusing). Or perhaps a simple break down like 1 of the 3 basic actions available to a hero (attack, move, ready an action). Would it not be clear to them that regardless of their choice fatigue is always available unless it's already used up? Would I also have to explain that fatigue can only be used for 3 things (+1 MP, +1 power die, or upgrade power dice to either silver or gold)? And while explaining the options for using fatigue would I have to include the options made available if certain skill or feat cards were being used? Since I've only played this game as the OL I'm sure there are other things being missed being unfamiliar w/ all the characters, all the skill cards, and all the feat cards. I decided to break down all the technicalities into something simple. I'm sure that I'm not the only one in this world who needs things simplified.

Corbon said:

YES! It can be seen as meaning that "chooses to receive movement points" is exclusive with "attacking or placing an order." In fact, I'm pretty sure that is the ONLY syntactically valid reading of that first sentence and that it CANNOT be read as literally saying that that is the only circumstance in which the hero can perform movement actions (though it doesn't say that any other circumstances do exist, either).

Corbon said:

No, they have nothing to do with this FAQ ruling at all. They're based on the original stun text in the JitD rulebook. Notice how they (and your quoted text above them) keep talking about the words "instead" and "only" which do not even appear in that FAQ entry?

Corbon said:

OK, you clearly missed the context of this remark, so go back and look at the original stun rules in the JitD rulebook . Do you see a part where it says that heroes can spend fatigue if they choose movement, but not if they choose to attack or place an order? Do you even see fatigue mentioned at all?

Do you even see something that says that the hero can't move if he doesn't pick the "move your speed" option? (It would hardly be conclusive if it did, since the description of the Battle action said that too, but it doesn't even say that.)

That means that, even if the original rules could be read as meaning that the half-action is all you get and that you can't spend fatigue to do more, they cannot possibly be read as meaning that you can spend fatigue, but only if you choose the movement half-action and not otherwise. If the original rules were the only text we had, that option wouldn't be on the table. No one would have thought of it, no one would have brought it up, it wouldn't even be under consideration. There is no conceivable way to get that conclusion just from the original stun rules.

Therefore, your reading of the FAQ answer contradicts any possible reading of the original rules. I suppose you could say that every single rulebook has gotten it wrong and that this FAQ answer that you insist on reading perversely is the only place where the writers got it right, ever . But that would be absurd even if your interpretation of that FAQ answer was clear and indisputable, because the rulebooks talking about stun are more numerous and more reliable, and, unlike the FAQ, are supposed to be complete.

The alternative is that you can say that the original rules text means that you can't spend fatigue, regardless of which half-action you choose. That means that both FAQ answers (yes, even the monkey one) directly contradict your interpretation, because they both indisputably indicate that you can spend fatigue in at least one case.

Either way , you are taking a dubious interpretation of a single rules passage and saying that multiple other passages about Stun must be wrong because they contradict it.

My interpretation says that all of them are correct and consistent under the most straightforward reading and that everyone in this thread except you was able to understand them without help.

Corbon said:

Oh, you're right, the use of the word "effectively" causes that paragraph to mean the opposite of what it would otherwise mean! And clearly the fact that Road to Legend did not copy these partial rules for Stun from the AoD expansion means that they were completely wrong and should be totally ignored. How silly of me.

Whether the heroes actually get a half-action or not is, in fact, totally irrelevant. The question is whether they are actively prevented from doing everything else in all creation apart from the half-action that they effectively get. The interesting part is that the AoD version of the rule specifically says that the effective half-action is " instead of his normal action ," rather than saying that he " only " gets the effective half-action. That implies that being stunned does not remove any capabilities except the ability to take a normal action, which supports the interpretation of everyone-but-you whether the thing that replaces them are "real" half-actions or not.

Antistone said:

On another note, and one that I bring up despite the fact that One Fist is probably my favorite hero, based on the "instead of his normal action" terminology for the half-action a hero can do when stunned, I'm going to have to change my view that he gets to use his "hook" attack when stunned. The wording is "in addition to his normal action" .... stunned heroes do not get their "normal action" and thus the "hook" attack cannot be used.

Someone PLEASE tell me my logic is flawed?

It doesn't say "If he gets his normal action" does it? The hook attack doesn't seem to be contingent on anything, it is just letting you know he gets to attack with it every turn regardless of what else he does.

Lord Foul said:

Actually, it kinda does. IIRC, the "In addition to his normal action" is straight off the card.

Back to topic, this was clarified by KW, found it in the ooold wiki:

"Stun (on heroes): what you can and cannot do while being stunned? Does stun prevent you from exchanging movement for movement actions, such as using glyph transport?"

A: Movement points are movement points. They can be used to move or they can be used for movement actions, doesn't matter. The two are pretty much always completely interchangeable. Stuff that prevents you from using movement actions (like being a monkey) will always explicitly say that it does so.

The phrasing used to hand out movement points is typically "may move a number of spaces up to or equal to X." This means exactly the same as "Receives X movement points." It does not have anything to do with being able to use movement actions or not.

So, to be really explicit on Stun, when you have 1+ stun token on your hero at the start of your turn, you:

1. Discard 1 stun token. (So if you have 3 stun tokens on you, you'll basically be stunned for 3 rounds).
2. Choose one of the following:
A. Gain X movement points, where X = your Speed. (You can gain more through other means, such as Ring of Quickness or fatigue).
B. Make 1 attack. (You get 0 movement points, but can gain more through other means).
C. Place 1 order. (You get 0 movement points, but can gain more through other means).

Note that because you cannot Advance, Battle, Ready, or Sprint when stunned, you do not gain any benefits from skills you have that trigger off of these actions (so, you would not gain fatigue from Battle Cry, since you cannot Battle, for example).

Oboewan said:

"If he gets his normal action" can only be interpreted as a dependency, whereas "in addition to his normal action" could be interpreted as merely informational. letting you know that this attack is an extra one, not a replacement.

Lord Foul said:

Works for me