The way I see it: Luke was a complete beginner character with no training in the force and no understanding of his heritage. Yet over time he was gifted a Lightsaber from his mentor and was guided slowly into becoming the person he was meant to be. Thus I can agree with the perception that F&D doesn't make you the Jedi, but it can do if the GM is fairly flexable with his tools from the start.

Lightsaber full power? Hell yeah, just the player using Luke was smart enough to stick with what he did know. No point incurring a bounty obligation at this point in the game! XD

I'd like to point out, even with the F&D book really there's no system that is for being a Jedi. This isn't a complain, just an observation as I think the system is setup just right for the target era and style of the games.

Even with the inclusion of F&D, using the standard rules you're not going to be playing a Jedi. Heck, you're likely not even going to have a lightsaber. What you will have is one of the people out there with the ability to manipulate the force in ways similar to the Jedi. But... a Jedi, even a padawan learner, has the advantage of numerous years of rigorous training and discipline under the tutelage of one with decades worth of experience and training. Not to mention the order has been all but wiped out. We are talking about an era where many people don't even believe the force exists and that the tales of the Jedi are exaggerate myths and legends.

But, regardless of the Empire's quite efficient work in slaughtering the Jedi and scattering whomever remains to the far-flung reaches of the galaxy to hide, there will still be those born with an innate connection to the force. Some may aspire to live up to the ideals of the Jedi as the interpret them but they're still not exactly Jedi. Even F&D notes in the book that the characters you are making just are not equal to the Jedi of the past.

Anyhow, the point here is, this is not a book about playing or being Jedi.. it's a book about The Force and those people who have the ability to use it in the form of force powers.

Being a jedi is not a mechanical thing. It is a story thing. So no there is not a mechanical thing for being a jedi in force and destiny. But then there doesn't need to be one. As being a Jedi is following the Jedi Code and a set of beliefs and ways of doing things. With the ability to manipulate the force. So any of the specializations of careers that give force rating will allow one to be a jedi. If they follow the code and set of beliefs. Same goes for being a sith.

d20 is still available on the internets.

Q: Why did star wars 4, 5, and 6 come before 1, 2 and 3?
A: Because in charge of scheduling, Yoda was.

Am I the only one who read that first post and thought that ErikB was back again?

There are two posts from this weekend which were both about sensitive topics from first time posters and have spawned multiple pages of debate/discontent in a short time. Makes me wonder what's going on...

What was the second one?

There are two posts from this weekend which were both about sensitive topics from first time posters and have spawned multiple pages of debate/discontent in a short time. Makes me wonder what's going on...

At least the second one wasn't as long winded as this one and written like it was posted 2 years ago when the game originally released.

Is this becoming a new sport? Provoke the FFG SW-forums? I'm sure it's other RPG-forums hatin' our civil and reasonbale behaviour.

I think we could all do ourselves a favour and look at the post count of the OP of nonsense threads like these. If it's the first or so post, I think it's reasonable to assume: #tard.

Is this becoming a new sport? Provoke the FFG SW-forums? I'm sure it's other RPG-forums hatin' our civil and reasonbale behaviour.

I think we could all do ourselves a favour and look at the post count of the OP of nonsense threads like these. If it's the first or so post, I think it's reasonable to assume: #tard.

Or at least wait on any further replies after the first ones to see if they respond in any intelligible manner. the first 5 responses covered it and they never came back. so assume jackass.

Maybe the OP will come back to toss another grenade like the other thread?

Maybe the OP will come back to toss another grenade like the other thread?

Maybe this thread will get locked too...

You are wrong and you should feel bad about things.

Now go to your room. No desert.

Sorry for the long absence...

I saw a ton of vitriol in the first few replies and decided to hold off for a bit (and real life got in the way, but what are you going to do) the situation (for me) was this was a delayed post. I picked the main game up back on release day. I read through it, saw it didn't have Jedi, shelved it. Came back to it, hoping the book had been released, still no... So in a fit of frustration (and kind of feeling like I spent a lot of decent cash on a game that, to me, felt incomplete especially without the Jedi) I decided against the better part of valor to give my honest appraisal.

Now...

For those who go, "Well everyone loves EotE! It is acclaimed!"

You can't use that as an actual comeback. Why? Because anyone who doesn't like it is labeled as a troll and pretty much chased away.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

For those who say I was bashing the system... No.

I actually said the system is fine, the lack of the Jedi is the issue because they are so important to Star Wars and they should have been in the main book. The company really shouldn't have released the game without rules for them in the main book given how important they are to Star Wars.

For example:

For me? As a Star Wars GM? I'm still running Saga Edition.

Why?

It is the best book out there for me as a GM. Why?

I love the original trilogy... But it is a stretch of time roughly 5 years long... That is all the time that passes and for me, to have a group of people who don't (or can't) match the main cast as player characters makes it unplayable in a lot of settings... That and every single time we turn around there are more Jedi. (Just go look at Star Wars Rebels... The Rebellion was started by a former Jedi, one Ahsoka Tano.) Then there is the fact that the only reason the Rebellion survived initially was because of a Sith turned Jedi. (One Starkiller.) For a group that is supposedly "wiped out" there are Jedi all over the blasted place.

My personal theory on that was that Yoda was simply wrong when he said, "The last of the Jedi, you will be."

So if I want to run a KotOR era game? I can't.

If I want to run a Jedi Civil War era game? I can't.

If I want to run a New Jedi Order game? I can't.

If I want to run something post Fate of the Jedi? I can't.

I can't even use EotE to properly run a Legacy Era game.

So like I stated, EotE isn't bad... It is a great system for a Smuggler-centric game... So is Firefly D20.

I don't like the exclusion of the Jedi, I feel it makes it impossible for me as a GM to use, and I wanted to state it.

So if that makes me a troll... Despite a clear lack of, "You guys suck!" In my post, then so be it.

I thought I made it perfectly clear I was stating my opinions and nothing more.

Sorry for the long absence...

I saw a ton of vitriol in the first few replies and decided to hold off for a bit (and real life got in the way, but what are you going to do) the situation (for me) was this was a delayed post. I picked the main game up back on release day. I read through it, saw it didn't have Jedi, shelved it. Came back to it, hoping the book had been released, still no... So in a fit of frustration (and kind of feeling like I spent a lot of decent cash on a game that, to me, felt incomplete especially without the Jedi) I decided against the better part of valor to give my honest appraisal.

Now...

For those who go, "Well everyone loves EotE! It is acclaimed!"

You can't use that as an actual comeback. Why? Because anyone who doesn't like it is labeled as a troll and pretty much chased away.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

For those who say I was bashing the system... No.

I actually said the system is fine, the lack of the Jedi is the issue because they are so important to Star Wars and they should have been in the main book. The company really shouldn't have released the game without rules for them in the main book given how important they are to Star Wars.

For example:

For me? As a Star Wars GM? I'm still running Saga Edition.

Why?

It is the best book out there for me as a GM. Why?

I love the original trilogy... But it is a stretch of time roughly 5 years long... That is all the time that passes and for me, to have a group of people who don't (or can't) match the main cast as player characters makes it unplayable in a lot of settings... That and every single time we turn around there are more Jedi. (Just go look at Star Wars Rebels... The Rebellion was started by a former Jedi, one Ahsoka Tano.) Then there is the fact that the only reason the Rebellion survived initially was because of a Sith turned Jedi. (One Starkiller.) For a group that is supposedly "wiped out" there are Jedi all over the blasted place.

My personal theory on that was that Yoda was simply wrong when he said, "The last of the Jedi, you will be."

So if I want to run a KotOR era game? I can't.

If I want to run a Jedi Civil War era game? I can't.

If I want to run a New Jedi Order game? I can't.

If I want to run something post Fate of the Jedi? I can't.

I can't even use EotE to properly run a Legacy Era game.

So like I stated, EotE isn't bad... It is a great system for a Smuggler-centric game... So is Firefly D20.

I don't like the exclusion of the Jedi, I feel it makes it impossible for me as a GM to use, and I wanted to state it.

So if that makes me a troll... Despite a clear lack of, "You guys suck!" In my post, then so be it.

I thought I made it perfectly clear I was stating my opinions and nothing more.

One of the core things you have missed about the design philosophy is how the Designers did the game. They asked people what was star wars to them. they get 3 answers. 1. the fringe, the han Solo stories. Dealing with the criminal underground and Han Solo type stories. 2. About the Rebellion against the empire. And all that entails. 3. the Jedi and the force.

The Made 3 core rule books. one to deal with each part. So if you think Edge of the Empire is all the star wars. You would be wrong. Sounds to me like you need to pick up force and destiny Beginner game and the core rule book when it come out in Julyish. And you probably want to pick up Age of rebellion and maybe even the beta book for Force and Destiny.

They could have done one core book and tried to cram in all the information for all 3 games. But they would have had to leave out a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor. And they wanted to take the time to get the force right as pretty much every game system has gotten the force completely wonky so as to make force users and everyone else not play well together. This game does not seem to have that problem.

Try reading my reply from the first page. As you are still making the same mistake.

Also it followed the OT, first the fringe ANH, then the rebelion ESB, then the return RotJ. Are Jedi important to the story? Yes, but it was 19 years before one was ever seen in the SW Universe according to the original trilogy.

I actually said the system is fine, the lack of the Jedi is the issue because they are so important to Star Wars and they should have been in the main book. The company really shouldn't have released the game without rules for them in the main book given how important they are to Star Wars.

. . .

I don't like the exclusion of the Jedi, I feel it makes it impossible for me as a GM to use, and I wanted to state it.

Oh, so nothing important or interesting ever happens in the Star Wars universe except as it pertains to the Jedi? That's your thesis?

That's a laughable notion, on par with "nothing important or interesting ever happens in the Star Trek universe except as it pertains to the Enterprise."

This is solely your personal problem, that the game is not catering to your preferences. That is not, objectively, a problem with the game itself. And it's certainly not a bait-and-switch like you've stated.

Sorry for the long absence...

I saw a ton of vitriol in the first few replies and decided to hold off for a bit (and real life got in the way, but what are you going to do) the situation (for me) was this was a delayed post. I picked the main game up back on release day. I read through it, saw it didn't have Jedi, shelved it. Came back to it, hoping the book had been released, still no... So in a fit of frustration (and kind of feeling like I spent a lot of decent cash on a game that, to me, felt incomplete especially without the Jedi) I decided against the better part of valor to give my honest appraisal.

Now...

For those who go, "Well everyone loves EotE! It is acclaimed!"

You can't use that as an actual comeback. Why? Because anyone who doesn't like it is labeled as a troll and pretty much chased away.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

For those who say I was bashing the system... No.

I actually said the system is fine, the lack of the Jedi is the issue because they are so important to Star Wars and they should have been in the main book. The company really shouldn't have released the game without rules for them in the main book given how important they are to Star Wars.

For example:

For me? As a Star Wars GM? I'm still running Saga Edition.

Why?

It is the best book out there for me as a GM. Why?

I love the original trilogy... But it is a stretch of time roughly 5 years long... That is all the time that passes and for me, to have a group of people who don't (or can't) match the main cast as player characters makes it unplayable in a lot of settings... That and every single time we turn around there are more Jedi. (Just go look at Star Wars Rebels... The Rebellion was started by a former Jedi, one Ahsoka Tano.) Then there is the fact that the only reason the Rebellion survived initially was because of a Sith turned Jedi. (One Starkiller.) For a group that is supposedly "wiped out" there are Jedi all over the blasted place.

My personal theory on that was that Yoda was simply wrong when he said, "The last of the Jedi, you will be."

So if I want to run a KotOR era game? I can't.

If I want to run a Jedi Civil War era game? I can't.

If I want to run a New Jedi Order game? I can't.

If I want to run something post Fate of the Jedi? I can't.

I can't even use EotE to properly run a Legacy Era game.

So like I stated, EotE isn't bad... It is a great system for a Smuggler-centric game... So is Firefly D20.

I don't like the exclusion of the Jedi, I feel it makes it impossible for me as a GM to use, and I wanted to state it.

So if that makes me a troll... Despite a clear lack of, "You guys suck!" In my post, then so be it.

I thought I made it perfectly clear I was stating my opinions and nothing more.

I think you're entirely entitled to your preferences in a game and I think it's very easy to not realize there are no jedi in EotE - Jedi are present in pretty much every film, cartoon episode and novel that is Star Wars so it's reasonable to think that a Star Wars game would have them in. The back cover even says "Force powers".

But I will refer you back to my original post in this thread that says that basically, by mistake, you bought the wrong game. I sympathise. But don't condemn FFG too much. The game you want is being released this year. And EotE is compatible so you will be able to keep it close-by for any players that want to run a non Force-using character. It will make a nice compliment, though it's a shame you bought it under mistaken impressions.

Hey, look! It is the game designer and professional writer of a non-disclosed star wars magazine coming back to fan the flames of his burnt out topic. Sure he is not a troll, which is why he just says the same thing again....

I actually said the system is fine, the lack of the Jedi is the issue because they are so important to Star Wars and they should have been in the main book. The company really shouldn't have released the game without rules for them in the main book given how important they are to Star Wars. . . . I don't like the exclusion of the Jedi, I feel it makes it impossible for me as a GM to use, and I wanted to state it.

Oh, so nothing important or interesting ever happens in the Star Wars universe except as it pertains to the Jedi? That's your thesis? That's a laughable notion, on par with "nothing important or interesting ever happens in the Star Trek universe except as it pertains to the Enterprise." This is solely your personal problem, that the game is not catering to your preferences. That is not, objectively, a problem with the game itself. And it's certainly not a bait-and-switch like you've stated.

How many of the films, cartoon episodes or novels can you think of that don't have Jedi in them? You can probably come up with a few Legends novels which will be a tiny percentage. It's not unreasonable that someone who didn't get the Internet memo to expect a Star Wars game would have Jedi in it. And look at what you're arguing - you're strawmanning like crazy. The OP said "Jedi are important". You respond with "nothing important or interesting ever happens in the Star Wars universe as it pertains to the Jedi". That's not what the OP said. Why is there such seething hatred in this thread? Someone just spent £35 on a book that turned out to be useless to them. They can post that their disappointed if they like! They haven't been aggressive or personally insulting to anyone else here, but they're getting hit with a wall of abuse and mockery and "that's your problem" in return.

If insults is all people have then just don't post. And if someone is insistent it is "trolling" as some declare with 100% confidence, then you would think by this point they would have learned not to feed it as a response. But no, apparently everyone is new to the Internet. :/

Sorry for the long absence...

I saw a ton of vitriol in the first few replies and decided to hold off for a bit (and real life got in the way, but what are you going to do) the situation (for me) was this was a delayed post. I picked the main game up back on release day. I read through it, saw it didn't have Jedi, shelved it. Came back to it, hoping the book had been released, still no... So in a fit of frustration (and kind of feeling like I spent a lot of decent cash on a game that, to me, felt incomplete especially without the Jedi) I decided against the better part of valor to give my honest appraisal.

Now...

For those who go, "Well everyone loves EotE! It is acclaimed!"

You can't use that as an actual comeback. Why? Because anyone who doesn't like it is labeled as a troll and pretty much chased away.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

For those who say I was bashing the system... No.

I actually said the system is fine, the lack of the Jedi is the issue because they are so important to Star Wars and they should have been in the main book. The company really shouldn't have released the game without rules for them in the main book given how important they are to Star Wars.

For example:

For me? As a Star Wars GM? I'm still running Saga Edition.

Why?

It is the best book out there for me as a GM. Why?

I love the original trilogy... But it is a stretch of time roughly 5 years long... That is all the time that passes and for me, to have a group of people who don't (or can't) match the main cast as player characters makes it unplayable in a lot of settings... That and every single time we turn around there are more Jedi. (Just go look at Star Wars Rebels... The Rebellion was started by a former Jedi, one Ahsoka Tano.) Then there is the fact that the only reason the Rebellion survived initially was because of a Sith turned Jedi. (One Starkiller.) For a group that is supposedly "wiped out" there are Jedi all over the blasted place.

My personal theory on that was that Yoda was simply wrong when he said, "The last of the Jedi, you will be."

So if I want to run a KotOR era game? I can't.

If I want to run a Jedi Civil War era game? I can't.

If I want to run a New Jedi Order game? I can't.

If I want to run something post Fate of the Jedi? I can't.

I can't even use EotE to properly run a Legacy Era game.

So like I stated, EotE isn't bad... It is a great system for a Smuggler-centric game... So is Firefly D20.

I don't like the exclusion of the Jedi, I feel it makes it impossible for me as a GM to use, and I wanted to state it.

So if that makes me a troll... Despite a clear lack of, "You guys suck!" In my post, then so be it.

I thought I made it perfectly clear I was stating my opinions and nothing more.

Obviously, this is not the game for you. However, your review is effectively 'this game is incomplete because it lacks jedi'. If anything, that is a less valid complaint against the system than stating 'the system is an acclaimed system with many people who enjoy it without jedi' is a defense.

First of all, there are basic rules for force use in the core book. No Jedi are not focal, sure they can use a lot of work, but they are there and so even with EotE it is entirely possible to include force using characters. But apparently that isn't sufficient for you.

I've not seen someone labelled a troll on these forums when they have a well supported argument.

I haven't really seen much from your argument that provides strong support to the idea that this is a poor system.

1) The mechanics are reasonably solid and quite fun.

2) No, you can not really play a Jedi with the book as presented but that doesn't really make it a bad system. Jedi are awesome, I love them but they are just one piece of a very large galaxy.

In short, you feel that the game needs a focus on Jedi and that is certainly your prerogative. But to say that the system is poor or incomplete is not a fair review. Sure it is a limitation.. but a fair review would state that if you want Jedi this isn't the system for you. If you want gritty, underworld, shady characters living on the edge then it is exactly what you are looking for.

Someone just spent £35 on a book that turned out to be useless to them. They can post that their disappointed if they like!

OP frankly could have flipped through the book before they bought it, or if they bought online, maybe sought out reviews or a discussion such as this forum before ordering. I don't think that's unreasonable, instead what we get is someone complaining that they game they chose to buy didn't give them exactly what they wanted. Well, caveat emptor - do some **** research before spending, if that's the problem. That's a better option than coming onto a forum about the game and complaining to people who can't change it and are unlikely to share your opinion.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

Unless you live under a rock or did no research I call bullsh!t?

You obviously found the FFG forum's dedicated to the game. Did you somehow miss them back when you were purchasing the book? Did you also miss the information being put out by them about what they were doing? Did you do no research before buying? If so and you ended up disappointed then you only have yourself to blame.

You are late to the party with your disappointment. Pick up the Force & Destiny book dropping soon so you can start complaining that Jedi aren't the superpowered uber characters you want them to be.

Kshatriya - This is the official forums, so it stands to reason that one can give feedback.

Oh? To the person who wanted to attack my references...

Let me put it this way...

I told BioWare months in advance (you can look it up everywhere, go check out the old (now defunct) askajedi, that they were going to cause a population imbalance with the way they marketed and constructed their game. The Devs told me I was wrong... They swore their internal numbers said things would be even... They swore that they asked gamers what they wanted and they acted on it... I told them straight up that they were wrong.

Game launches? What happens... Oh right massive population imbalance exactly in the areas I predicted and exactly in the way I said they'd be.

Go check out the videos from Cel 5 where I was interviewing people.

HWalsh, Professor Walsh... Same guy...

Here is even an old video from Pax East where I was at covering as press:

Anyway...

In this case the post was made late at night while I was frustrated that I still had a book, that despite years later, was incomplete and I was upset. That having been said, nothing I said is without merit. I never, even when I told Drew Karpyshan to his face that the ending of the Darth Bane trilogy felt like bad fanfiction, ever give criticism without at least explaining my stance.

I honestly don't believe that they were told by the vast majority of Star Wars fans that they preferred Han Solo to everything else as far as roleplaying games go. I say that because games tend to be either "All Jedi" because every player wants to play one, or all "Non-Jedi" because every player in that game hates them. In fact I pretty much stand that either their sample was somehow tainted (which was the problem with BioWare's own polls and questions) or that the sample was a victim of an abnormally large statistical anomaly.

Namely that Jedi will usually come in the most popular followed by everything else.

I support that with the case of Karen Traviss, a Star Wars author who liked to bash on and marginalize the Jedi, who eventually was offered the choice to stop writing and resign or be fired.

The replies have mostly been, "Well EotE was only 1/3 of a game." or they have been, "Well F&D is the book for you and a different game than EotE."

So, since I haven't seen F&D obviously... Did I need EotE to play it? Because if I do, then its not an optional book. It feels more like, instead, I'm being told to buy a copy of Metal Gear Solid... But then buy the DLC if I want to play as a character named Snake.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

Unless you live under a rock or did no research I call bullsh!t?

You obviously found the FFG forum's dedicated to the game. Did you somehow miss them back when you were purchasing the book? Did you also miss the information being put out by them about what they were doing? Did you do no research before buying? If so and you ended up disappointed then you only have yourself to blame.

You are late to the party with your disappointment. Pick up the Force & Destiny book dropping soon so you can start complaining that Jedi aren't the superpowered uber characters you want them to be.

Nice straw man attack there.

Insinuating that because I like running for, and playing, Jedi that I must, of course, wish them to be overpowered.

Which is amusing because I already mentioned that I run Saga Edition where Jedi aren't overpowered at all and are already quite often underpowered.

Did a Jedi run over your dog when you were a kid or something?

This is just like the stuff with Karen Traviss, she hated Jedi, her Fandalorians hated Jedi, and it was evident. If you like Jedi then you must be a nazi. (Which was more or less actually said by Ms. Traviss.)

It has nothing to do with liking or disliking Jedi. It has to do with 90% of Star Wars material stars and/or features Jedi.

As I said, there are one offs... The wonderful X-Wing series. The Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina, The Tales from Jabba's Palace, Battle of the Bounty Hunters, The Han Solo BBY series (3 books), the Calrissian series, the Traviss Books, Which in total, I'd say, there are maybe around 15% of Star Wars material that don't feature Jedi. I named about maybe 20 or so books in total that don't feature Jedi... That is still only a fraction that do... Considering, in novels alone, there were 240+ (I think the actual number is 247) that it is STILL a legitimate complaint and you attacking me for it doesn't change that.

Edit:

As far as, "Did you do no research before buying" goes...

I'm a rank and file Star Wars fan usually if it says Star Wars on it I buy it. Doubly so for RPG books.

I own everything from WEG Star Wars, to D20 Star Wars, to a Savage Worlds Star Wars, to Saga Edition, to EotE...

Only EotE has no Jedi in them in the main book. Only. So no, I didn't think I had to research that, to be honest... It says Force Powers on the book, it has the name Star Wars, I assumed (incorrectly in this case) that it had Jedi in it because... As mentioned... Star Wars.