The problem that I had with Travis - and mind you, she's far from the worst writer in the sandbox (*coughKJAcough*) - is her Boba Fett Must Be a Badass At The Expense of All Others attitude. I read through the gawdaful trainwreck that was Legacy of the Force and every third book Fett swooped in like a Deus Ex Machina, kicked ass and then rolled out of town regardless of how her work fit into the overall larger story. It felt like she just didnt want to write with the others.

Mind you, her books were just one portion of the overall mess of the series. Bad writing, bad characterization, bad plot, bad everything. But her selfish egocentric approach to the range was close to the top of the problem pile. And I'm not a Jedi apologist - I've said many times around here that the Jedi order was clearly broken in E1-3 and that the prophecy is not a 1-1 Sith/Jedi ratio, but that it meant that the order itself was out of balance and needed to be reconstructed from the ground up.

No, I just think she's a terrible writer.

I didn't read any of that mess. I liked her Clone Commando stuff. She made the Mandos more 3 dimensional. Which i thought was good. they were fallible in those books. Well trained yes. But just well trained people. Can't speak to what was in legacy of the force. sounded like every book was a trainwreck of my guys are more bad ass than yours.

I have no idea what happened here...

Must be some spill over from another forum somewhere else?

But I read your post with interest, Kyla and I tend to agree with a lot of the things you wrote.

However there is one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb to me "Maybe you believe in God, too"

What value and/or morality can be derived from a belief in the supernatural?

I have no idea what happened here...

Must be some spill over from another forum somewhere else?

But I read your post with interest, Kyla and I tend to agree with a lot of the things you wrote.

However there is one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb to me "Maybe you believe in God, too"

What value and/or morality can be derived from a belief in the supernatural?

Not being a Christian, personally, I can't speak for Karen, but I took it to reference (based on the context) the stereotype that Christianity is supposed to be forgiving and compassionate religion, giving to the needy and caring for the unfortunate. Regardless of the realities of Christian actions, that is the context in which it was forwarded (that context being her referencing the 'belief' the reader she is speaking to is a good person). I don't think it's a supposition that should you believe in a 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' you immediately get a pass on morality, but rather a belief that those that take time to consider the metaphysical implications of religion tend to spend time also considering the ramification of actions.

The problem that I had with Travis - and mind you, she's far from the worst writer in the sandbox (*coughKJAcough*) - is her Boba Fett Must Be a Badass At The Expense of All Others attitude. I read through the gawdaful trainwreck that was Legacy of the Force and every third book Fett swooped in like a Deus Ex Machina, kicked ass and then rolled out of town regardless of how her work fit into the overall larger story. It felt like she just didnt want to write with the others.

Mind you, her books were just one portion of the overall mess of the series. Bad writing, bad characterization, bad plot, bad everything. But her selfish egocentric approach to the range was close to the top of the problem pile. And I'm not a Jedi apologist - I've said many times around here that the Jedi order was clearly broken in E1-3 and that the prophecy is not a 1-1 Sith/Jedi ratio, but that it meant that the order itself was out of balance and needed to be reconstructed from the ground up.

No, I just think she's a terrible writer.

I don't have a problem with any of what you said, I personally stayed away from the whole thing (I never recovered personally after the Vong invasion - just couldn't identify Star Wars in that Era), so I'm not really fit to speak about the merits of her Boba portrayal, and I'm in no position whatsoever to tell you are wrong for your opinion of her as a writer (that's what opinions are for). Personally, I think Hemingway was shite hack - but a lot of people disagree with me. Doesn't mean any of us are right, beauty and the beholder and all that. I enjoyed her Republic Commando series and for that and nothing else I will happily squirrel away the good memories I have of it - even if I never read another book by her again (which oddly, I haven't).

I'm all about spreading your opinion, I will even allow someone to say terrible things that they firmly believe - I don't often stick about to listen to it, but I won't stop anyone from saying it. What I will stand up against, and always speak out against, is people labeling others based on quotes taken out of context and for the purpose of furthering their own agendas. It's wrong, it always was wrong, it always will be wrong, and it's crossing the line from speaking your opinion to taking an action to marginalize and defame another human being.

That's fair enough - I hate playing Telephone like that, or rolling a grenade into the room to watch the show. Naw, I was only speaking from my personal experience of that in Legacy of the Force, she was terrible (as was Aaron Allston and Troy Denning).

I've read the Republic Commando series, and they started off pretty well. It's just that she started getting preachy about how the Mandos were the true unsung heroes of the galaxy while the Jedi were uniformly a bunch of baby-stealing hypocrites.

Personally, I agree that the Jedi Order of the Rise of the Empire time frame was very much flawed and a victim of their own success. To quote Bane from The Dark Knight Rises, "victory has defeated you." They got complacent and secure in their power. And they paid for it, big time.

But one the (many) problem I had with Traviss' writing was that she painted all members of the Jedi Order with that brush. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is generally held to be something of a paragon of what a Jedi Knight should be during those times, describing him as a pompous egotistical lout with zero respect for the clones, in spite of there being pretty solid on-screen evidence of the exact opposite as well as plenty of written examples of him being fairly humble as well as respectful towards the clone troopers under his command. But since the concept of a "good Jedi" didn't fit with her view, Traviss made him out to be more of a villain than the actual villains of Dooku and Sidious.

Then there was the white-washing of the darker aspects of Mandalorian culture, as well as anyone that was exposed to the leads in her books suddenly fell under the sway of the Mandos. The older guy that pretty much adopted the Nulls was pretty cool, particularly in how he viewed the clones as a sort of extended family and tried to do right by them, I'll certainly grant you that, but he did some pretty shady things in course of his cause, and it just got swept under the rug as "ends justify the means" while she's blasting the Jedi for that same sort of mentalty; it comes off as rather two-faced of her.

She had dialed both her Mando fangirlism and Jedi hatred back quite a bit in the Imperial Commando novel, but it seems that her unwillingness to accept that George had the final say on things (particularly in regards to Mando culture during the Clone Wars) pretty much killed off any chance of her continuing the series even before the canon reset took place.

And Desslok's right, there were far worse authors in the Star Wars EU, with KJA the top of that particular list.

I've read the Republic Commando series, and they started off pretty well. It's just that she started getting preachy about how the Mandos were the true unsung heroes of the galaxy while the Jedi were uniformly a bunch of baby-stealing hypocrites.

Personally, I agree that the Jedi Order of the Rise of the Empire time frame was very much flawed and a victim of their own success. To quote Bane from The Dark Knight Rises, "victory has defeated you." They got complacent and secure in their power. And they paid for it, big time.

But one the (many) problem I had with Traviss' writing was that she painted all members of the Jedi Order with that brush. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is generally held to be something of a paragon of what a Jedi Knight should be during those times, describing him as a pompous egotistical lout with zero respect for the clones, in spite of there being pretty solid on-screen evidence of the exact opposite as well as plenty of written examples of him being fairly humble as well as respectful towards the clone troopers under his command. But since the concept of a "good Jedi" didn't fit with her view, Traviss made him out to be more of a villain than the actual villains of Dooku and Sidious.

Then there was the white-washing of the darker aspects of Mandalorian culture, as well as anyone that was exposed to the leads in her books suddenly fell under the sway of the Mandos. The older guy that pretty much adopted the Nulls was pretty cool, particularly in how he viewed the clones as a sort of extended family and tried to do right by them, I'll certainly grant you that, but he did some pretty shady things in course of his cause, and it just got swept under the rug as "ends justify the means" while she's blasting the Jedi for that same sort of mentalty; it comes off as rather two-faced of her.

She had dialed both her Mando fangirlism and Jedi hatred back quite a bit in the Imperial Commando novel, but it seems that her unwillingness to accept that George had the final say on things (particularly in regards to Mando culture during the Clone Wars) pretty much killed off any chance of her continuing the series even before the canon reset took place.

And Desslok's right, there were far worse authors in the Star Wars EU, with KJA the top of that particular list.

You should consider the point of view that Traviss uses over the course of the Commando novels. Not 1st person/3rd person but the perspective of the class of characters. The Mandos and the Clones are about the closest we ever get to seeing things from the perspective of the greater galactic population. The Jedi are supposed to be the guardians of peace and protectors of justice yet at points they seem just as corrupt as the Senate they proclaim to work for.

From watching TCW, I noticed that Kenobi is a decidedly different character than he is in the films. He is at times a bit haughty, not necessarily egotistical but that's one character's opinion) and at times very aggressive in his approach. And while he had great respect and care for his clone troopers, he is more than willing to write them off as a cost of war if situation calls for it(also seen in ROTS). Whether or not the expense of sentient life is justified, I can't answer that.

Kal Skirata did many shady things for the cause of granting the clones a normal life span and providing them a place to escape the war. Yes it was 'ends justify the means' but I think he just didn't care. The Jedi get called on that because they're not supposed (or always said so) to have that mentality in the first place. There was more deliberation on whether or not Anakin should be trained as a Jedi than there was for accepting a Clone army that appeared out of nowhere and that was established by a long wayward member of the Order who was thought to have been killed a decade prior.

I fell the Imperial Commando part of series was tempered by how Lucas and Filoni were writing the mainstream Mandalorians in TCW. They were pacifists and the armor and jet pack wearing guys were the Death Watch bad guys (so that means Jango Fett was part of the Death Watch then? There's been nothing canonically stated, as far as I can find, as to what he was). There was no absolutely nothing being created, TV series wise, to back up what she was writing and what she wanted to write.

You refer to how everyone that encountered Skirata's group fell under the sway and you're right, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Bardan Jusik works because he traded one cult for another, one he felt that lived up to its ideals better than the first. Bessany's friend was literally forced to join them or be captured by Republic Intelligence. But the rest really have no reason or compunction to join with them other than plot says so.

I'm not going to comment on the Boba Fett issue, I'm still in the process of formulating how I feel about him.

And out of Kevin J Anderson's works, his worst by far is Darksaber. The plot and antagonists are one dimensional to the point of it being a spoof novel. I honestly think he just wrote it to collect the paycheck. The Jedi Academy trilogy wasn't terrible as some of the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi novels were.

That quote above from swtor is even more telling: when I was moderator at One Ring (a Lord of the Rings game site) we had a few members who used that feeble excuse..."it wasn't me, it was my irresponsible kid brother".

The more important question is "how do I get whafrog to run One Ring for me?"

Meh, personally I never was a fan of Jedi. Liked them but they are only one part of what makes "Star Wars" Star Wars for me. I've avoided much of the EU books because of their focus on Jedi and the original characters. I liked Boba Fett when he was a mysterious bounty hunter wearing the armour of a lost warrior culture. Not so interested in him as a clone or a Mandalorian. I enjoyed KW Jeter's trilogy centered around him. I also enjoyed the Lost Tribe of the Sith short stories. Read a few others but nothing much really interested me.

This explains it pretty well I think. EOE AOR F&D while separate rule books are one game. I run an EOE setting, But players can play any characters they want from any of the core books. I don't see the point of dogging EOE for not having Jedi any more than I can see dogging F&D for not having Bounty hunters or Rebel Soldiers.

Meh, personally I never was a fan of Jedi. Liked them but they are only one part of what makes "Star Wars" Star Wars for me. I've avoided much of the EU books because of their focus on Jedi and the original characters. I liked Boba Fett when he was a mysterious bounty hunter wearing the armour of a lost warrior culture. Not so interested in him as a clone or a Mandalorian. I enjoyed KW Jeter's trilogy centered around him. I also enjoyed the Lost Tribe of the Sith short stories. Read a few others but nothing much really interested me.

And as I am commenting, my response to the OP is 'thanks for sharing, my opinion is different than yours so I hope you find a game that you can enjoy. Bye now!'

And my general opinion is that sometimes jedi are fun but do become a bit boring, Travis had some good ideas but made mandos in to boring supermen, and I will NEVER understand how Daala was ever given that level of authority, WTF! Oh and Rogue One looks like a pretty cool concept, and I hope the Force Awakens lives up to my childhood dreams!

Ah well. To each their own. I probably enjoyed the trilogy more because I am not weighed down with a lot of the EU.

Prince Xizor was retrospectively able to record Luke's aunt and uncle getting killed

And again I am not sad i never invested in the EU of old...

This brings back memories. I was 10 when I saw the original movie back in 77.

According to this article he recorded it in the theater.