Also note:

I'd be just as annoyed if someone released a Star Wars book without rules for Smugglers as they are part of the core of Star Wars as well. (Though, to be honest, Smugglers only appeared in 3 films, Jedi appeared in all 6, though, to be fair Han appears in almost as many novels as Luke does so you have to have rules for the Han Solo type or it doesn't work either.)

I don't even understand why this is a discussion. From Day One, FFG said that there would be three game lines, and what each would be. And did you say you bought EotE a year ago? A full year on, there's no bloody way you shouldn't have known what you were buying.

The last was just thrown in as a joke as that is the next complaint after "There is no Jedi!" in EotE or AoR. Now that we have F&D (or at least those that purchased the beta until the actual CB drops. Now some people expect great power right off to enable their view of Jedi.

Nice straw man attack there.

Insinuating that because I like running for, and playing, Jedi that I must, of course, wish them to be overpowered.

Which is amusing because I already mentioned that I run Saga Edition where Jedi aren't overpowered at all and are already quite often underpowered.

This doesn't help your case. Jedi and Force users could be extremely overpowered very easily in Saga. Skill Focus: Use the Force combined with the various talents which allowed you to substitute Use the Force for various skills and lightsabers produced some nastily overpowered Jedi.

And the fact that you focused entirely on that last little bit and ignored the rest tells me all I need to know about you.

You wish everyone to take you seriously with your "credentials" yet somehow totally missed all the information available back when the EotE CB was released. Not even including the information available while the beta was in so many hands.

How did you miss all that information?

As far as, "Did you do no research before buying" goes...

I'm a rank and file Star Wars fan usually if it says Star Wars on it I buy it. Doubly so for RPG books.

I own everything from WEG Star Wars, to D20 Star Wars, to a Savage Worlds Star Wars, to Saga Edition, to EotE...

Only EotE has no Jedi in them in the main book. Only. So no, I didn't think I had to research that, to be honest... It says Force Powers on the book, it has the name Star Wars, I assumed (incorrectly in this case) that it had Jedi in it because... As mentioned... Star Wars.

So this is someone else's fault because you assumption was wrong. Got it.

Actually Walsh, I have a question:

Why aren't you crying about there being no Rebel Alliance in EotE?

No X-wing, no Star Destroyer, no AT-AT. The military angle in Star Wars is huge, so why aren't you irked that it's not there?

I can only surmise that it's because Jedi are what you want, and you didn't get what you want (but you will be getting it in July, so again, why are we even talking about this?).

So, yes: troll.

Professor Walsh also is educated and did his math, there was one Jedi in A New Hope, 2 Jedi in Empire Strikes Back (1 died in ANH), and 2 In Return of the Jedi. In each of those movies only one really did light saber stuff. The reason a lot of the older people don't like the Jedi is because of the amount of Jedi in the prequel, and the amount of people jumping on the Jedi band wagon. Look at SW Galaxies, WEG and so on. Jedi are supposed to be special, not everyone should be one. I did not purchase any of the SW roleplaying games because of this, until I read up on Edge and the other FFG books, yes I looked up and researched them found this forum and I haven't looked back.

So Professor Walsh, the FFG books basically did same thing. Started on the Fringe, went to the rebellion, and returned with Jedi. Please look at it from that point of view and it might help. Also them coming out with the books they way they did made it to where people could play immediatly and they could refine some things in the other books. Take the advice you gave Bungie or whoever and understand that this game came out with few bugs and is very refined.

Now, if you will excuse me, I have a game in 15 min.

So if I want to run a KotOR era game? I can't.

Um, actually you can. My table has been running a KotOR era game for about 7 months now, ever since the F&D beta came out.

Actually Walsh, I have a question:

Why aren't you crying about there being no Rebel Alliance in EotE?

No X-wing, no Star Destroyer, no AT-AT. The military angle in Star Wars is huge, so why aren't you irked that it's not there?

I can only surmise that it's because Jedi are what you want, and you didn't get what you want (but you will be getting it in July, so again, why are we even talking about this?).

So, yes: troll.

Because the Rebel Alliance only existed for exactly nineteen years of canonical history in Star Wars? The iconic ships are a loss, save for the fact that the iconic ships aren't around for most of Star Wars. For example, you mention the X-Wing, but no book (to my knowledge) ever had the E-Wing which replaced the X-Wing.

The Rebel Alliance is far less necessary to Star Wars than Jedi are. Literally, when using Pre-Disney cannon it is:

Thousands of years = The Republic

Nineteen years = The Rebellion to Restore the Republic

Hundreds of years = The New Republic

What has been a constant throughout that time? That span of thousands of years? Oh yeah... Jedi.

Also note:

I'd be just as annoyed if someone released a Star Wars book without rules for Smugglers as they are part of the core of Star Wars as well.

I wonder if we'll see threads on this one after Force and Destiny hits the shelves since it doesn't provide the option of playing the Smuggler career (although anybody can dabble in smuggling).

tells me all I need to know about you.

This kind of line really has no place on a discussion forum. Ignore another user if you must, but this kind of line is really damaging to the intent of the boards.

tells me all I need to know about you.

This kind of line really has no place on a discussion forum. Ignore another user if you must, but this kind of line is really damaging to the intent of the boards.

I could have out and out called him a troll as others already have. or an idiot for not researching something that could easily have been researched and not been disappointed by his purchase (for I assume he would not have been disappointed as he would have been informed). But by his own admission he went out and bought it sight unseen.

As it is I didn't. And why would I ignore him when I am enjoying his pouting about there being no Jedi in EotE. Fondly reminds me of a couple of years ago when all this was being initially discussed. You know, during that time that if he had actually done any research he would have found out about the lack of any full Jedi support.

Most of the discussion regarding FFG's 3-core release was done long ago when it was first being released. There are pages and pages of discussion regarding the pros and cons, like and dislikes, versus d20's 1-core plus supplements method. Walsh, some googling and searching will find lots for you to catch up on - here at this forum and elsewhere.

d20 SAGA didn't have details on a KotOR campaign within the only Core book. That later came in a KotOR campaign guide. You could still play a KotOR campaign without waiting for the guide if you wished to do a little work yourself.

FFG took an innovative new route to release 3 core books each with their own setting included no extra guide book to purchase. Those three books mated up with the three OT movies and each includes a different style of play (fringe, military, force-user). Step back and think of this instead of trying to wrap the d20 method around it.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

So lack of common sense enough to be a smart shopper is FFG's fault?

I don't know when you bought yours, but I got mine a year and a half ago and the product launch and design philosophy video was readily available. Pretty much laid out the intent of the 3 books in that video, which was readily available on this company's site. They've got a very active forum to anyone quickly browsing, would have been an easy detail to pin down quickly before pressing a 'complete purchase' button.

I just don't see any merit to any of your issues, and a whole lot of unwillingness to take personal responsibility to be an informed shopper.

Actually Walsh, I have a question:

Why aren't you crying about there being no Rebel Alliance in EotE?

No X-wing, no Star Destroyer, no AT-AT. The military angle in Star Wars is huge, so why aren't you irked that it's not there?

I can only surmise that it's because Jedi are what you want, and you didn't get what you want (but you will be getting it in July, so again, why are we even talking about this?).

So, yes: troll.

Because the Rebel Alliance only existed for exactly nineteen years of canonical history in Star Wars? The iconic ships are a loss, save for the fact that the iconic ships aren't around for most of Star Wars. For example, you mention the X-Wing, but no book (to my knowledge) ever had the E-Wing which replaced the X-Wing.

The Rebel Alliance is far less necessary to Star Wars than Jedi are. Literally, when using Pre-Disney cannon it is:

Thousands of years = The Republic

Nineteen years = The Rebellion to Restore the Republic

Hundreds of years = The New Republic

What has been a constant throughout that time? That span of thousands of years? Oh yeah... Jedi.

Nope.

The era this game is placed in is clearly laid out (along with everything else). You might as well be crying that stats for Sith troopers aren't in there.

Obvious Troll is obvious.

And my statement still rings true, when I bought it there was no information that there were no rules for Jedi on the book. I had to go online as it was to find out that the book still hadn't dropped. That should have been part of the initial release.

Unless you live under a rock or did no research I call bullsh!t?

You obviously found the FFG forum's dedicated to the game. Did you somehow miss them back when you were purchasing the book? Did you also miss the information being put out by them about what they were doing? Did you do no research before buying? If so and you ended up disappointed then you only have yourself to blame.

You are late to the party with your disappointment. Pick up the Force & Destiny book dropping soon so you can start complaining that Jedi aren't the superpowered uber characters you want them to be.

Nice straw man attack there.

Insinuating that because I like running for, and playing, Jedi that I must, of course, wish them to be overpowered.

Which is amusing because I already mentioned that I run Saga Edition where Jedi aren't overpowered at all and are already quite often underpowered.

Did a Jedi run over your dog when you were a kid or something?

This is just like the stuff with Karen Traviss, she hated Jedi, her Fandalorians hated Jedi, and it was evident. If you like Jedi then you must be a nazi. (Which was more or less actually said by Ms. Traviss.)

It has nothing to do with liking or disliking Jedi. It has to do with 90% of Star Wars material stars and/or features Jedi.

As I said, there are one offs... The wonderful X-Wing series. The Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina, The Tales from Jabba's Palace, Battle of the Bounty Hunters, The Han Solo BBY series (3 books), the Calrissian series, the Traviss Books, Which in total, I'd say, there are maybe around 15% of Star Wars material that don't feature Jedi. I named about maybe 20 or so books in total that don't feature Jedi... That is still only a fraction that do... Considering, in novels alone, there were 240+ (I think the actual number is 247) that it is STILL a legitimate complaint and you attacking me for it doesn't change that.

Edit:

As far as, "Did you do no research before buying" goes...

I'm a rank and file Star Wars fan usually if it says Star Wars on it I buy it. Doubly so for RPG books.

I own everything from WEG Star Wars, to D20 Star Wars, to a Savage Worlds Star Wars, to Saga Edition, to EotE...

Only EotE has no Jedi in them in the main book. Only. So no, I didn't think I had to research that, to be honest... It says Force Powers on the book, it has the name Star Wars, I assumed (incorrectly in this case) that it had Jedi in it because... As mentioned... Star Wars.

Which is evidence that no you did not do any research and still have not addressed the fact that we have explained multiple times most of the force stuff is in the force and destiny core rule book coming out in July. My post that you still seem to have ignored twice explaining what FFG said they were going to do and why they were doing it that in the way they were doing it.

Instead of whining. Pick up the Age of rebellion book and the force and destiny Beta book if you can't wait. Or pick up the Force and Destiny Core book when it comes out in July. And FFG said they were doing it this way way back before the beta came out.

To keep arguing the same point when the reasoning has been explained and the solutions have been explained makes you look like a troll.

The Rebel Alliance is far less necessary to Star Wars than Jedi are.

You're crazy. For the better part of some 25-ish years, Star Wars was ALL about the Rebels vs Empire. That's all we had from '77 through '99. The focus of the story, the themes, the setting was a military based civil war. Some of the non-military stuff started creeping in towards the end with the Golden Age of the Jedi comics and of course Episodes 1-3 turned that paradigm on it's ear - but for the bulk of Star Wars' history, it's been all Civil War and military.

If Jedi define Star Wars, the OP is going to have real problems with the upcoming Rogue 1, which apparently will be Jedi-free.

But I will refer you back to my original post in this thread that says that basically, by mistake, you bought the wrong game. I sympathise.

Sympathize all you want but don't expect him to reply to your nice posts. There is a reason why he is only engaging the people that told him off or (rightly) called him a troll.

He speaks! Good to hear from you, HWalsh!

When EotE was first announced, I had mixed feelings. On the one hand, it was great for a new SW rpg to be on the horizon, with lots of support in place for it. On the other hand, I was skeptical about being limited to fringe types. I'd been playing the WEG core book up until this point and was hoping for the full range of characters to be supported from the get-go. That said, I kept up to date with the announcements and when the beginner box came out, I played it at my local store - where I had a lot more fun playing a Wookiee than expected. When we decided to take the training wheels off and use the core rulebook to make our own characters, none of the classes really grabbed me (I was more inclined to play a rebel type than a shady ne'er-do-well), so do you know what I did? I started GMing the game instead. And it's been the most rewarding rpg experience so far. For my player who REALLY wants to play a Jedi, I've been hinting that he has Force potential and I'll carry on doing this until F&D comes out, at which point our game will lead to him having the opportunity to pursue the ways of the Force.

Was I disappointed that Jedi and Rebels weren't in the first book? Yes. Do I think this whole system is the best iteration of the SW franchise in roleplaying seen so far? Absolutely. Has this post been a long-winded spiel about nothing in particular? Quite possibly, but then we're both guilty of that...

The replies have mostly been, "Well EotE was only 1/3 of a game." or they have been, "Well F&D is the book for you and a different game than EotE."

So, since I haven't seen F&D obviously... Did I need EotE to play it? Because if I do, then its not an optional book. It feels more like, instead, I'm being told to buy a copy of Metal Gear Solid... But then buy the DLC if I want to play as a character named Snake.

No, you don't need EotE to play it. As I have said to you several times, they are separate games. The games are intended to be different in cast and in tone. Age of Rebellion has a different focus to Edge of the Empire as well. It is not, as I have said, that it took two years for the Jedi supplement to come out. They are separate game lines.

I honestly don't believe that they were told by the vast majority of Star Wars fans that they preferred Han Solo to everything else as far as roleplaying games go. I say that because games tend to be either "All Jedi" because every player wants to play one, or all "Non-Jedi" because every player in that game hates them. In fact I pretty much stand that either their sample was somehow tainted (which was the problem with BioWare's own polls and questions) or that the sample was a victim of an abnormally large statistical anomaly.

Namely that Jedi will usually come in the most popular followed by everything else.

I support that with the case of Karen Traviss, a Star Wars author who liked to bash on and marginalize the Jedi, who eventually was offered the choice to stop writing and resign or be fired.

The replies have mostly been, "Well EotE was only 1/3 of a game." or they have been, "Well F&D is the book for you and a different game than EotE."

So, since I haven't seen F&D obviously... Did I need EotE to play it? Because if I do, then its not an optional book. It feels more like, instead, I'm being told to buy a copy of Metal Gear Solid... But then buy the DLC if I want to play as a character named Snake.

For being a star wars fan you're rather uninformed, it's like you haven't read anything or done any research about the game. It's like ... you expect everything to be just like you prefer it to be... well, stop that, get over it and stop being a passive consumer. Engage yourself with the market and the products you intend to buy, it's your responsibility in this modern, hyper-real, individualistic, information, risk and consumer society. Get with the program dude

1) Which is amusing because I already mentioned that I run Saga Edition where Jedi aren't overpowered at all and are already quite often underpowered.

2) As far as, "Did you do no research before buying" goes...

I'm a rank and file Star Wars fan usually if it says Star Wars on it I buy it. Doubly so for RPG books.

I own everything from WEG Star Wars, to D20 Star Wars, to a Savage Worlds Star Wars, to Saga Edition, to EotE...

Only EotE has no Jedi in them in the main book. Only. So no, I didn't think I had to research that, to be honest... It says Force Powers on the book, it has the name Star Wars, I assumed (incorrectly in this case) that it had Jedi in it because... As mentioned... Star Wars.

1) Say what? Underpowered? Hah! Not a troll you say? BS.

2) If you blindly buy whatever you can see without looking at it properly how the **** do you justify this as a "complaint" and not just a troll-action? Any semi-literate individual will at least look at and read up on stuff s/he's buying, of course I get the expectation about Jedi, but are you not curious about the stuff you buy? Or do you just blindly pick up and buy whatever has the Star Wars-logo on it? If so, then you've really brought this upon yourself, I'd think that it's a justified expectation that people inform themselves in this day and age, particularly in post-industrialised, information and service societies of western countries. The lack of fulfilment of this individual responsibility cannot be blamed upon producers, only upon lazy consumers.

I don't even understand why this is a discussion. From Day One, FFG said that there would be three game lines, and what each would be. And did you say you bought EotE a year ago? A full year on, there's no bloody way you shouldn't have known what you were buying.

+1

Because the Rebel Alliance only existed for exactly nineteen years of canonical history in Star Wars? The iconic ships are a loss, save for the fact that the iconic ships aren't around for most of Star Wars. For example, you mention the X-Wing, but no book (to my knowledge) ever had the E-Wing which replaced the X-Wing.

The Rebel Alliance is far less necessary to Star Wars than Jedi are. Literally, when using Pre-Disney cannon it is:

Thousands of years = The Republic

Nineteen years = The Rebellion to Restore the Republic

Hundreds of years = The New Republic

What has been a constant throughout that time? That span of thousands of years? Oh yeah... Jedi.

"Pre-Disney" canon is of no importance anymore. It's Legends now. It isn't canon and will never be canon. You may prefer it, but that's of no consequence for anyone else but you and your players. Deal with it.

So you're basing your argument on scrapped sources. Really? Wow. That'll take you places I'm sure, but you're not going to enjoy it I think. Unlearn what you have learned, as Yoda put it. Clear your mind of questions, no there is no "why," feel the new canon and immerse yourself with the Force. Let go of your attachments to the clearly inferior EU/Legends

HWalsh,

I felt just like you in the beginning. I had the Beta of EoTE and I have always loved playing as a Jedi, so at first it disappointed me. I too felt that Jedi were the reason to feel special in Star Wars. In RPGs, you ARE the snowflake and that is what feels great about being the adventurer. I too own all of the Legends books and every RPG to this point. I had never liked the smuggler angle. But I was wrong. Of course the first book feels very Firefly. I think that was the intent and it isn't a bad thing. Thankfully, that got my stick out of the mud. The 19 years of Rebellion IS the important part for the Movies as well as this RPG. In the years following EotE, I have YET to get my players interested in the Rebellion. They just don't care, and have more fun playing with the special rules for Obligation. As the GM, I have never had so much fun. The system is Star Wars! The books just put emphasis on one part or another. Now that the Beta for FaD is out, we really do have all of the tools at our disposal. FFG knew what it was doing. Is it a marketing thing? Sure. But it is also a playtesting and refining thing. And it has WORKED! There are some videogame examples that I like to think about when it comes to the emphasis on story.

Dark Forces 1: It had Kyle Katarn and he wasn't a Jedi yet! Fun gameplay, freaky darktroopers, and not a lightsaber to be seen. Was it Star Wars? Absolutely!! (So a smuggler style dude (EoTE) helped out the Rebellion (AoR) and later becomes a Jedi (FaD). It has worked before, and I feel like it will work again. The EPIC storytelling is all about the journey of the hero.)

Shadows of the Empire 64: Again, no lightsabers or Force Powers. That whole game was Speeders, Blasters, and Space Combat. I thought it was great!

X-wing, Tie-Fighter, Rogue Squadron: These were space combat games. Did they not feel Star Wars? And still not much in the way of Jedi.

You may want to wait for FaD. It sounds much more like what you would enjoy (and then you can just think of EotE like an expensive splatbook), but I am a living example of a reformed Force Focused Star Wars lover. I have EotE to thank for that.

My suggestion isn't to forget what you love about Star Wars, but it is to play/GM Edge and see just how much the system itself gives off the Star Wars feel. You may have to get creative to have the same Jedi feel that you desire, but you don't have to wait long for the system that you desire! (and you will be happy to have EotE for stats and non-jedi flavor!)

Best Wishes.

HWalsh: "I'm a rank and file Star Wars fan usually if it says Star Wars on it I buy it. Doubly so for RPG books."

This comment saddens me. Surely, gobbling up most Star Wars merchandise puts you somewhere outside the rank and file, and among the ranks of fanboyishness. If that's the case, then your own spending habits are what led you here and FFG should not be blamed.

Also, regarding the whole "Star Wars is 90% about Jedi" spiel, here are some of the things that are creating a buzz in relation to the new trailers:

Who owns the Falcon?

Why is the Empire called The First Order?

What's the state of the war between The First Order and the Resistance?

Who is Kylo Ren and how does he fit in to the story?

How did an apparent Star Destroyer graveyard end up on the desert planet?

What became of Luke and friends?

Why has a stormtrooper apparently gone rogue?

What do the new stormtroopers look like?

Who is the chrome trooper?

Tldr; people are interested in a lot more than just the Jedi factor. That's part of the reason why Star Wars has had such longevity.