I wonder what the OP thinks about all this honest feedback?

(Waits.)

Do you think we'll have to wait long?

I don't know. But I would far rather people were reading my Xenomorph write-up in the thread next door. I was really pleased with that!

I wonder what the OP thinks about all this honest feedback?(Waits.)Do you think we'll have to wait long?

I don't know. But I would far rather people were reading my Xenomorph write-up in the thread next door. I was really pleased with that!

Thanks, knasserII - that gave me my first belly laugh in this thread

Yes I did.

And thus you did not “fix the analogy”.

It's called "Benefit of the doubt".

I’d call it hopelessly naive.

I don't know the OP or anything about them. I just know that it's their first post here and what they wrote.

And I am not. And I see no solid reason for you to be so certain when you know no more about them than I do.

Well, apparently you don’t take away from “what they wrote” what I did.

Take the following remarks, and I quote:

“It isn't Star Wars.”

"it feels like someone who generally doesn't understand Star Wars wrote it"

"Does it want us to be background characters? Does it want us to be one of the guys sitting in the cantina in Mos Esley?”

"I can't trust the decisions of a group of designers who actually thought that some players wouldn't be miffed in a big way about not having Jedi actually be available from the start.”

“it removes, in large part, the largest part of Star Wars”

“What were you thinking?"

And I can go on and on. These are all remarks that rail against something we like and spend a lot of time with in an unfair and condescending manner. They are purposely inflammatory remarks no matter how often you later repeat them with “in my opinion” or “ I feel”. I wasn’t talking about those remarks. I am fine with the “To me” or the “I feel” remarks. No skin off my nose. But if you were looking for aggression I would (again) recommend you to reread the OP.

Now on top of that come the claims to authority “I was a professional writer for a Star Wars fan magazine” (sure you were) “As a game designer myself” (sure you are). Because all “professional writers” for a fan mag would call the swashbuckling element of Star Wars Firefly. Sure they would.

Seriously you still want to give him the benefit of the doubt? Doesn’t the extremely level of troll not pummel you in the face here?

I do it because I want the community to be a friendly welcoming place and consider your posts to move us away from that. If you genuinely consider the OP to be trolling, then by this point in the history of the Internet you should have learned the principle of "Do not feed the trolls". This thread is only even still on the first page because of the copious food you are providing. If you genuinely consider it trolling, then as Pac_Man3D advised, just don't rise to it. And then you can let those of us you call "naïve" waste our time trying to help the OP.

Well so far I have written one reply to him and ever since you have been engaging me in conversation about it.

Calling someone a troll is aggressive. Responding to their post with "No one here asked for your opinion" is aggressive. And it's certainly unfriendly.

Well, I now hope that you understand that calling a troll a troll is just that.

Let's just shelve it. I've said all I wanted to the OP. You've said what you wanted to them. They don't even appear to be online so I'm going to go focus on writing up my next game. It's more profitable than this argument and the same probably holds for you with your time.

Peace to everyone here!

(Warning: This post contains exclamation marks! And at least one colon).

And people, expose your comments with more tollerance and respect please. Like or not his point of view, he hasn't offended anyone.

Oh please... I have no idea what anyone here said that was disrespectful to a totally invalid criticism of a game that set out to do exactly what its designers told us it would. I find the replies extremely mild and not at all intolerant or disrespectful. Stop having everyone tiptoe around the possibly hurt feelings of a poster that went trolling for replies.

It's not an "invalid criticism" of the game and the poster is just expressing how it is at odds with what they want. You're the only one in this thread so far who has taken this as a personal issue. If the OP's post is "trolling" then how in your opinion could they express their problem with the game without it being trolling? Everything they said is factually accurate and a matter of personal taste. Nor did they insult anyone. So basically, if you can't tell me how they could say what they wanted to say without it being trolling, then you're basically declaring having that opinion as trolling. Which isn't fair.

I was about to post my own comments to the OP but you've pre-empted this by attacking the OP and causing my first reply in this thread not to be saying why I disagree with the OP, but defending their right to their opinion!

To be fair, it could be considered 'invalid' that he is making a criticism that EotE isn't about Jedi, when it was never intended or designed to be about Jedi. That's like saying that I want to criticise, say... Vampire: The Requiem, because I'm a fan of World of Darkness, and I want to play werewolves. It was never designed or intended to have them, there is a different rulebook in the game series for the character I want, so it's not a valid criticism.

A rudimentary Google search would have told him that, if he wanted Jedi, Force and Destiny would be what he needed.

OK, please stop, you both have a good point about him being a troll or just not understanding the concept of the game because he is new to it. My first thought is that it was a troll but kept my mouth shut. Either way, if he was a troll he was fed, if he wasn't we will be lucky if he comes back and reads legitimate arguments and he is done. I have had my differences with you 2. You 2 are well respected in this community so lets all get together and try and talk the OP through this, please.

Now to the OP, I have read all the books also, but even in the EU/Legends it took Luke a while to build up and find force users. Not many were trained. If Lucas had never came out with the prequels would we have visually known how many Jedi there were Edge would be easier to digest for younger people and would understand us old timers thoughts on special snowflakes actually being special. Did you ever play the MMO Star Wars Galaxies? I did and it was set up more like FFG's game. When that MMO came out out with Jedi about a year into it, it was ruined. Why? Because I was the only one playing a non force user...yes you read that right...I hate Jedi, everyone wanted to be one and became one in that game. So your idea that there should be trained Jedi is off, so Edge is spot on, but you have your opinion and I have mine.

Lets look at the progression of the core book releases from the point of view that they were meant to be played seperatly with the option of being combined as many people have stated here and in other threads. It has been stated that it is a money making scheme also. But you know, I don't think any one has thought about did Fantasy Flight have a concept for all three books before they started writing them? This the first time I have seen a beta for a pen and paper role playing game, it may not be though. IDK, with that being said, we Star Wars fans are hungry for Star Wars. So did FFG put a beta out for all their books yes, are the books the best out there? IMHO, yes. Now could we look at the hungry SW fans as wanting to play? Obviously. So did they come out with the first book that has the most basic rules so we could play while waiting for the rest? Going by what I am trying to say is that the game is a 5 course meal that makes us hungrier and by the time the chef sends out the desert which, he has been working on all along, you have just had the best meal you have had in your life due to the refinement of not rushed rules and them not having to come out with as many updates and errata as other companies have had to do.

So with that being said, I will have my cake and eat it to. If this doesn't help you, then you are being stubborn and I don't know what else to say. Don't buy any more FFG SW and go to the old d6 or d 20 rules.

Heh heh. Thought I went back in time and someone had rezzed an old thread when I first saw it. Realized that this poster is THE authority on Star Wars so I totally agree with him now. Obviously Star Wars is all about Jedi as there were never any other character archetypes in any of the stories/movies/comics. So therefore Star Wars is Jedi all the time.

Frikkin hilarious.

Meh... you don't like it, that's fine. Take it back, trade it in for something else, or sell it to somebody who does or would like it. Star Wars is much too big to be condensed into a single RPG corebook. Sorry for Jedi to come last but at least they will be mechanically fair and not overly limited like in SAGA(I've never played WEG so I have no idea how Jedi work in that one).

And just to be clear, Jedi did not come last. Extensive Force use came last. Can you play jedi? Absolutely. But you can also play Dathomir witches, Imperial Knights, Jensaarai or whatever else you can imagine.

Sorry knasserII, it's definitely a troll. He only has one post, and a non-troll with a modicum of social inclination would simply have asked the question: I want to play Jedi, how can I make them? There are answers for him, after all. I'm sure he'll be back just as the thread simmers down, only to toss another log on the fire.

First to the whole is he/isn't he a troll thing. I always try and give someone the benefit of the doubt - but seeing that it's just one post, he didn't bother to set up an avatar, he hasn't come back to respond, my gut tells me he was more interested in rolling a grenade into the room more than actual debate. It doesn't look good.

That said, the whole complaint is a non issue:

Instead they make a multi-year wait for Jedi?

And you know what, if this were 2013, you might have a valid point. However being that it's 2015 and the release is JUST around the corner (hell, the beginner game is on the boat as we speak. Less than 6 weeks before its in our hands by this point), your criticism doesn't really have a leg to stand on.

Want Jedi? Go to the local game store and buy the Beta book (Hey, look - Jedi game mechanics at a discount!). Want Rebel vs Empire? Walk down to Barns and Noble RIGHT NOW and buy the Rebel book. Want the full package? Buy all three. Problem solved.

I'm failing to see what your problem here is.

Is it a game balance issue?

Launching a brand new game engine? Absolutely.

I never felt that the non-Force Sensitives in the films were under powered, and I've seen plenty of other games balance it out just fine so that shouldn't be an issue.

I take it then you've never played the D6 engine (where Jedi can very easily overpower the game) or the D20 engine (ditto). It makes perfect sense that the dev team would want to make sure the game engine worked as intended before releasing something that can very easily tip the scales.

"Now, I've read every single EU book... All 240+

I've read nearly every single comic... Marvel and Dark Horse...

I've professionally worked for a Star Wars fan site and did interviews with people like Drew Karpyshan and Hall Hood.

Basically, I'm saying that I know my Star Wars.

Do you know how many had no Jedi at all in them? Very few."

You know YOUR Star Wars. Not mine.

The designers were upfront about their decision to go three separate games; one about the fringe elements and Han Solo types, one about the soldiers and idealists fighting the empire and the third about Jedi and budding force sensitives. When the game line was first announced, they stated this. If you bought the RPG, just because it says Star Wars and didn't do research to know what you were buying, I have zero sympathy for you. You should have waited for force and destiny. You say you know Star Wars and that it is about Jedi? Perhaps you should have exercised some patience and waited, rather than rush in and buy a book that clearly defines what it is about.

As to why the books come out over three years, one it is to make money. Two, balancing Jedi and force users has to be done. Jedi and the like are not gods. They can do things that most people find fantastic but they are not better. We have seen Jedi be fought to a stand still one on one in canon, mostly by mandalorians. We have seen Jedi gunned down by battle droids and clones.

The movies and other media have the issue that the main characters of the story have plot armour. These characters don't die except to further the story. That is part of what makes Jedi so much better.

There is also the fact that the 240+ books you've read don't exist in canon anymore, so with new media coming out we may see more and more non-Jedi centric stories. For the record, some of the most well written EU fiction was about non force sensitives: the rogue and wraith squadron books. While all they really bad books (crystal star, etc) had Jedi. Now I don't deny that Jedi are important to the Star Wars universe, but the galaxy far far away is a big place. There is plenty of room to tell stories about those who don't use laser swords.

The only mistake I see is that you, HWalsh, bought something without knowing what it was, and being impatient. You should have waited for force and destiny to come out. But I suspect, you may be one of those people who buys everything Star Wars because it is Star Wars.

Actually not all of the bad EU books had Jedi IMO. The Lando Calrissian Adventures were horrible and there were no Jedi to be found anywhere.

This isn't a complaint thread...

Well, it is, but it isn't complaining to complain.

This is me giving my honest appraisal of the game Edge of the Empire.

Let me get my asbestos suit on... Okay... Here we go...

I Don't like Edge of the Empire... Edge of the Empire isn't a bad game and I really want to like it... But I can't.

As a game it isn't, at the core, a bad game. The mechanics are good, the system is clean, the generalities work really well. It does so many things right... But... It isn't Star Wars.

At the core, that is my problem, it doesn't feel, to me, like Star Wars.

I bought the book... It isn't the system at the core, but it feels like someone who generally doesn't understand Star Wars wrote it.

I know, I know, a huge contingent of fans are big on the "Jedi Hunter" and a huge contingent of fans love the Mandalorians because they kill Jedi, and a huge contingent of fans think Luke Skywalker and all Jedi suck and that Han Solo, Boba Fett, and their crew are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I got nothing against Mandalorians, or Han Solo, I love those guys.

However...

Star Wars, at the core... Is about Jedi.

I'll brace for the hatred and recoil from that one.

Okay, lets continue on...

Now, I've read every single EU book... All 240+

I've read nearly every single comic... Marvel and Dark Horse...

I've professionally worked for a Star Wars fan site and did interviews with people like Drew Karpyshan and Hall Hood.

Basically, I'm saying that I know my Star Wars.

Do you know how many had no Jedi at all in them? Very few.

Episode IV, New Hope? Obiwan Kenobi, Darth Vader? (Not including Luke in this one)

Episode V, Empire? Yoda, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader?

Episode VI, Return? Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Vader, The Emperor?

Now, based on that... Let us look at the party, if they were an RPG Group:

R2D2, C3PO, Princess Leia, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Obiwan Kenobi, Han Solo, Chewbacca...

Of these characters: 2 are Jedi/Sith, 2 are Force Sensitives, 2 aren't Force Sensitives/Users, and 2 are Droids.

Second film?

R2D2, C3PO, Leia, Luke, Vader, Yoda, Han, Chewie, Lando

Of these characters: 3 are Jedi/Sith, 1 is a Force Sensitive, 3 aren't Force Sensitives, and 2 are Droids... At this point the Force Users outnumber the non-Force Users.

Third film?

R2D2, C3PO, Leia, Luke, Vader, Yoda, Palpatine, Han, Chewie, Lando

How about this one? 4 are Jedi/Sith, 1 is a Force Sensitive, 3 aren't Force Sensitives, and 2 are Droids...

In Star Wars Lore (pre-EU wipe) literally every single major war and event included and/or revolved directly around the Jedi/Sith.

Or in short... Star Wars, at the core, is primarily set around Force Users and their allies.

Yes, there were short series (such as the wonderful X-Wing series) that didn't focus on Jedi... But they were the massive minority.

To me... Edge of the Empire just doesn't feel like it understands that.

The idea is that, yes, in the time of the Empire the Jedi were virtually wiped out... Save for the characters the movie followed... So... Does it want us to be background characters? Does it want us to be one of the guys sitting in the cantina in Mos Esley? Is it a game balance issue? I never felt that the non-Force Sensitives in the films were under powered, and I've seen plenty of other games balance it out just fine so that shouldn't be an issue.

Then... The Jedi book wasn't even slated for release until 2015?

That... That is what lost me. That was when I filed the book into the long box of books that I probably won't ever use. It sits, to this day, next to my copy of Babylon 5 D20 and Brave New World. It, to me, was a breach of trust. I play Star Wars, personally, for one reason... To play Jedi... That is the unique element of Star Wars. When I want to play a smuggler or a space cowboy of some type I play Firefly D20.

To put it simply... I can't trust the decisions of a group of designers who actually thought that some players wouldn't be miffed in a big way about not having Jedi actually be available from the start. Not only is it insanely restrictive (as it doesn't allow for proper simulation of any era other than the Empire era) but it removes, in large part, the largest part of Star Wars. As a game designer myself, it flabbergasts me, I want to seriously ask, "What were you thinking?"

If they wanted them removed from the game world... I don't know why they would want that... They could have simply released a series of early source books. Smugglers and Rogues, Jedi and Sith, Soldiers and Warriors... Instead they make a multi-year wait for Jedi? No. Just... No.

So... My honest feedback...

EotE is great if you want to play a budding Force Sensitive ala Luke Skywalker during Episode IV.

EotE is great if you want to play a Smuggler, a Soldier, a Pilot, etc.

EotE is absolutely terrible if you want to play a Jedi... Because Jedi weren't included... That... Was a mistake.

So don't play it. Next...

Please don't quote massive posts in full.

C'mon guys. Maybe he posted it right before bed and now has to wade through all the responses. Maybe he wants to make a considered response. Maybe he has some viewpoint that wasn't already covered 2 years ago. Heh heh.

You only get one chance to make a first impression. Most of these guys go away after a short visit. Maybe very short in this case.

> Star Wars, at the core... Is about Jedi

Stopped reading at this point.

If this is your opinion, you will be disappointed in EotE. F&D will be more your style. But it is really just your opinion. I'd say Star Wars lost its way once it became about Jedi but that's just an opinion, too. The great thing is that there are (or will be!) games that make us both happy.

This isn't a complaint thread...

Well, it is, but it isn't complaining to complain.

This is me giving my honest appraisal of the game Edge of the Empire.

<snip>

So... My honest feedback...

EotE is great if you want to play a budding Force Sensitive ala Luke Skywalker during Episode IV.

EotE is great if you want to play a Smuggler, a Soldier, a Pilot, etc.

EotE is absolutely terrible if you want to play a Jedi... Because Jedi weren't included... That... Was a mistake.

Well, if Jedi is all you want? Then Jedi is all you will get.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-force-and-destiny/products/star-wars-force-and-destiny-core-rulebook/

XD

I'd like to point out, even with the F&D book really there's no system that is for being a Jedi. This isn't a complain, just an observation as I think the system is setup just right for the target era and style of the games.

Even with the inclusion of F&D, using the standard rules you're not going to be playing a Jedi. Heck, you're likely not even going to have a lightsaber. What you will have is one of the people out there with the ability to manipulate the force in ways similar to the Jedi. But... a Jedi, even a padawan learner, has the advantage of numerous years of rigorous training and discipline under the tutelage of one with decades worth of experience and training. Not to mention the order has been all but wiped out. We are talking about an era where many people don't even believe the force exists and that the tales of the Jedi are exaggerate myths and legends.

But, regardless of the Empire's quite efficient work in slaughtering the Jedi and scattering whomever remains to the far-flung reaches of the galaxy to hide, there will still be those born with an innate connection to the force. Some may aspire to live up to the ideals of the Jedi as the interpret them but they're still not exactly Jedi. Even F&D notes in the book that the characters you are making just are not equal to the Jedi of the past.

Anyhow, the point here is, this is not a book about playing or being Jedi.. it's a book about The Force and those people who have the ability to use it in the form of force powers.

Am I the only one who read that first post and thought that ErikB was back again?

If it was ErikB, he would be fanning the flames rather than throw the post out there and not respond.

I'd like to point out, even with the F&D book really there's no system that is for being a Jedi.

I think you could, if you wanted to play games set in the Old Republic. You would just give lots of starting XP. I think you can get a low-level Knight out of a single tree, with Enhance and Sense at least 1/2 fleshed out, and basic Move with a single Strength upgrade. You'd need 400-500XP...with 300 for the tree alone and more for skills and powers, and perhaps dabbling in other careers.

I'd like to point out, even with the F&D book really there's no system that is for being a Jedi.

I think you could, if you wanted to play games set in the Old Republic. You would just give lots of starting XP. I think you can get a low-level Knight out of a single tree, with Enhance and Sense at least 1/2 fleshed out, and basic Move with a single Strength upgrade. You'd need 400-500XP...with 300 for the tree alone and more for skills and powers, and perhaps dabbling in other careers.

Oh, indeed.. you can make a Jedi or something approximating it. However, the book is not for being a Jedi. It gives tools that could be used for building Jedi but requires one to abstract information from other sources to determine what really a Jedi is. Theoretically, using the other books one could abstract out information to make characters that are somewhat Jedi-like as well.

Nothing in the F&D book centers around what one does to become a Jedi, what the Jedi Code is or means, what powers qualify one as a fully fledged Jedi and not just a Padawan or a Youngling.

And, as you mention, to make an effective representation of a Jedi you likely need several hundred XP above starting levels. Another reason that it isn't really a game system about being Jedi.

But again, from my perspective, that is a good thing. It gives you tools that can be used to play Jedi if you choose to take that route but it also offers much, much more because it is far more general. It has a greater scope and range of information and lets the group take that where they want to go with it.

The essence of Star Wars is different to different people. It can be viewed as a western, a love story, a tragedy, a war story. That's what makes it great. The movies all involved jedi for the same reason that a cop procedural involves police: that's the story being told. It doesn't mean it's the only story that can be told. We all get to be the authors of all those other stories*. Isn't that cool?

*And jedi stories too if we like.

Mi Culpa... When I first heard that FFG was going to put out a Star Wars game and weren't including Jedi I lost my preverbal sh*t (go back and read some of my posts from 13', actually please don't). But I when EotE actually came out and I looked at it I was sold and although I wish it had come out sooner and had different Careers (another discussion), from what I've seen in the beta F&D I'm pretty satisfied.

Unlike the OP I haven't read a lot of the novels (I prefer books that are written well) but I grew up on the original trilogy. Back then Star Wars was about the adventures of Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, and those lovable Droids, against a ruthless Empire personified by Darth Vader (and even DV wasn't the main nemesis until Empire Strikes Back). The Jedi Force thing was a mystical element shared by all of them but played out as a background reference to an ongoing battle of Good vs Evil. The Jedi don't even really exist as much more than a few practitioners and legends in those films.

The thing the OP lacks though is an understanding of what this trilogy of games set out to accomplish, which is a game that focuses primarily on those original films. As much as I look forward to a more and expanded source material that will incorporate the new films and maybe even the Old Republic I think for what FFG set out to do they did a pretty good job.

It, to me, was a breach of trust.