Well I do like painting GW models a lot. I just hate it when I "have" to do it en masse. Don't really play it anymore due to time constraints.

Big selling points for Armada and X-Wing in my opinion?

1. Easy startup. Roll the mat. Chuck the 'roids on the table. Deploy ships. GO!

2. Streamlined rules and intuitive gameplay.

3. Game time is reasonable.

4. Pre-paints. They look ok ("tabletop quality")

5. Price. As 40k gamer these are more than reasonable. (Necrons, Blood Angels, Realm of Battle gaming table, scenery, bucketload of paints and tools, airbrush etc etc...)

The vibrant colours and really awesome paintjobs are not really realistic to ask for in Star Wars setting due to price and artistic style.

Calling Armada and X-Wing a miniature game is a bit of a stretch because basically the relevant parts are the bases and templates, not the miniatures themselves. But I do have FUN when I play these games. And because they are so easy to setup I get a lot of game time too which translates directly into more fun!

Late night ramble.

Hold on there Hoss. LOL you're saying that just because I keep the stats on the stand for my miniature that this isn't a miniature game? That is a fairly narrow definition.

I've played several miniature games and while several are far more complex and many don't count damage (all or nothing for the unit) there is all kinds of in between. Suppressed, 1/2 fire, 1/2 strength, etc... This miniature game just happens to keeps the stats and track damage on cards and the figures itself. This one just isn't as complex as some.

At my LGS the vast majority of the XW and Armada players are the war-gamers. Most of whom still buy unpainted minis for various games, but several of whom now prefer XW and Armada because of the lack of work-load. And those that still prefer more traditional war-games still play XW and Armada because they make a nice sideline game that they don't have to put any additional work into.

You pretty much said what I did. FFG's games are a nice exception from the regular wargames that make perfect sideline game/something new and fresh for veterans.

Hell, I myself played various wargames for over a dozen years now and I play X-Wing and Armada too, so remember that I am not here to preach some unpainted supremacy view. I am a more or less experienced wargamer that enjoys both of those games and I never said that wargamers aren't going to enjoy this game.

All I tried to say in my first post in this thread is that using argument that a mini for another game is unpainted is really not the best thing to do, that's all.

As far as the prepainted/price thing goes- I quit 40k years ago for two reasons.

The first was the ridiculous price increase that started during 4th edition; I dont want to spend upwards of 300 bucks to possibly get a tournament legal list. Not even a good meta tourney list, just a legal list with little variety.

Second was the massive amount of painting I had to do to get my army ready and looking decent on the board. We're talking about a minimum of 30-50 models for a 1500 point game. That is a ton of time and effort invested into one single army.

I love XWMG and Armada because the price point and prepainted models are perfect for me now. I just had a kid and am working a lot so the fact that I don't have tons of time to paint means that FFG has hit the perfect mark for me. I like customizing my stuff, but I like playing the game more.

I think the value for the core set is fairly spot-on. However, I also think that it's high enough that it's a barrier to entry for a lot of gamers... which I'd call an error on FFG's part.

If they'd split it into a Rebel starter box and an Imperial starter box (each with all the necessary tokens, etc.) for $50-60 each, there would be a lot more new players.

I'm not going to quote everyone here but some points I'd like to lay down here after reading.

Warhammer/warmachine are not real wargames either. There is hardly ANY tactical movement that matters. It's all about lining up more dice odds in shooting and assault. They are really Yahtzee with minis. Real wargames use lookup charts, hex maps, and little cardboard chits that have funny numbers and symbols on them. Advance Squad Leader is a prime example.

Painting minis is a hobby unto itself, not a requirement to being labeled a wargamer. One of the main reasons I got out of the warhammer hobby is i got tired putting my fully painted army down across a primered, or even bare army. The amount of unpainted armies has grown over the 25 years i played.

With xwing and armada, i dont have to look at a sh*tty army across from me anymore.

I'm not going to quote everyone here but some points I'd like to lay down here after reading.

Warhammer/warmachine are not real wargames either. There is hardly ANY tactical movement that matters. It's all about lining up more dice odds in shooting and assault. They are really Yahtzee with minis. Real wargames use lookup charts, hex maps, and little cardboard chits that have funny numbers and symbols on them. Advance Squad Leader is a prime example.

Painting minis is a hobby unto itself, not a requirement to being labeled a wargamer. One of the main reasons I got out of the warhammer hobby is i got tired putting my fully painted army down across a primered, or even bare army. The amount of unpainted armies has grown over the 25 years i played.

With xwing and armada, i dont have to look at a sh*tty army across from me anymore.

I was going to say EXACTLY all of this. I could not agree more with you on basically every point.

I would love to see a Balrog take on a Victory Class Star Destroyer.

reactions can largely depend on what kind of gamer they are:

card gamer: $100 for 3 little toy ships!?!?!

x-wing gamer: yeesh, thats a little high but i'll prob do it.

40k gamer: thats just for the rulebook right?

The rulebook which we promise will be game play legal for a solid 2 years!

reactions can largely depend on what kind of gamer they are:

card gamer: $100 for 3 little toy ships!?!?!

x-wing gamer: yeesh, thats a little high but i'll prob do it.

40k gamer: thats just for the rulebook right?

The rulebook which we promise will be game play legal for a solid 2 years!

But yes, if this is your first Miniatures game, or X-Wing was, Armada will seem expensive. For those of us who have played other systems we tend to giggle at that notion. I have contemplated selling some of my other games, not all but some. I should be able to get the first and second wave with doubles, a brand new Bag to carry all my models in and have enough to get a nice table top piece for my dinning room table all varnished and looking sexy.

I will even have money left over after all of that too.

I can't speak for anyone else, but myself. Is this game expensive?

No, I have already purchased it. I will enjoy every minute of my time talking about this game on these boards, collecting all the fantastic little ships, painting the unpainted squadrons and having an absolute blast with my friends rolling dice and playing the game.

Anything more than that would be me just being argumentative, this is a personal choice/decision. I personally have no buyers remorse or regrets of any form.

I'm not going to quote everyone here but some points I'd like to lay down here after reading.

Warhammer/warmachine are not real wargames either. There is hardly ANY tactical movement that matters. It's all about lining up more dice odds in shooting and assault. They are really Yahtzee with minis. Real wargames use lookup charts, hex maps, and little cardboard chits that have funny numbers and symbols on them. Advance Squad Leader is a prime example.

Painting minis is a hobby unto itself, not a requirement to being labeled a wargamer. One of the main reasons I got out of the warhammer hobby is i got tired putting my fully painted army down across a primered, or even bare army. The amount of unpainted armies has grown over the 25 years i played.

With xwing and armada, i dont have to look at a sh*tty army across from me anymore.

You are aware that there's a genre called miniature wargaming that is exactly the term for WFB, 40k, WM/H and pretty much every single game like those? What you're refering to sounds more like a strategy board game, especially that you brought up ASL which, to quote "Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) is a tactical-level board wargame", so I really don't understand the sense of that statement you made there.

As for stacking dice... I don't know, I think you're looking at it in a very limited spectrum - trying to toss as many dice as possible is same as trying to form the most efficient army in real life - be it through numbers or superior training. Both an elite commando and a conscript can hit and both can miss, but unit statistics are there to balance them (higher chance to fail for conscript, higher chance to hit for elite soldier), so it's not unreasonable. Sure, you can roll all 1's with commandos and roll all 6's with conscripts, but that's just dice - still though, there's always more depth to it than just "lining up more dice odds in shooting and assault".

Of course, that matters a lot, but movement is just as important. Maybe not in 40k or WFB, which turned into a smashfest of "who gets there first", but also you should notice that both games are bleeding players that find better systems at a ludicrous pace. As for Warmachine - I don't think you ever played it, because positioning, facing and movement are the most important thing there, especially with the low range of guns which forces you to take devastating charges into account whenever you move.

Warhammer/warmachine are not real wargames either. There is hardly ANY tactical movement that matters. It's all about lining up more dice odds in shooting and assault. They are really Yahtzee with minis. Real wargames use lookup charts, hex maps, and little cardboard chits that have funny numbers and symbols on them. Advance Squad Leader is a prime example.

So the first actual wargames, such as the different Prussian krigsspiel , are not "real wargames"?

(picture of Armada base set)

(picture of GW Bloodthirster)

I would love to see a Balrog take on a Victory Class Star Destroyer.

As would I! But perhaps the more relevant examples are game or army starter sets. The PP Two Player Battle Boxes are the same price:

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/starter-products/hordes-two-player-battle-box

...and, although unpainted and unassembled, contain the same pay-and-play experience as the Armada box.

(picture of Armada base set)

(picture of GW Bloodthirster)

I would love to see a Balrog take on a Victory Class Star Destroyer.

As would I! But perhaps the more relevant examples are game or army starter sets. The PP Two Player Battle Boxes are the same price:

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/starter-products/hordes-two-player-battle-box

...and, although unpainted and unassembled, contain the same pay-and-play experience as the Armada box.

Warmachine/Hordes 2 player starter sets are extremely cost-efficient - You get the equivalents of two faction starters (50$ each) for 100$ PLUS a rulebook AND two units of heavy infantry, 45$ each, so you basically get over 200$ worth of stuff for 100$ and both armies only require often two models (mostly support pieces to make the starter units better through synergy with their special abilities) to bring them to a set point format, because it contains all the necessary stuff to make a fully playable army list that, as I mentioned, only needs a little fine tuning. Sure, they aren't the most competitive netlist there is, but for a starter they're still solid and offer absurd bang for the buck.

It's kinda like X-wing starter set cost 20$, and the X-wing Core Set is already a fantastic bargain at ~30$ if you want to play both factions or have someone to sell the model(s) you don't need.

What seems to have happened with Armada is that they decided they would not do a discount on starters. And/or that it was more expensive to produce than we think.

Armada core set:

Corellian corvette- $20

Nebulon-B frigate- $20

Victory Star Destroyer- $40

10 squadrons of starfighters- $20-ish

Dice- $10

Maneuver tool- $7.50

Plus rules, obstacles, etc...

Compared to X-wing, in which you get $45 of midels for $30, yes Armada is more expensive. But it isn't bad for a starter set of a game. You are getting the dice and maneuver tool for free basically, while also getting the beginings of a fleet for either faction. Choose one faction and split another core set with a friend and you are even better off. Its a decent value- not as good as X-wing but still very much a standard starter set for a table top game.

I'm somewhat tired of such hostility.

That says a lot about your posting history here then. When you get called on a text book no true scotsman comment...

As to your first argument - I don't really think X-wing is a wargame.

Then it's a good thing you don't get to define what is or is not a wargame. However the rest of your post... Doesn't change anything and isn't relevant to the current discussion.

@Klerych. Yes, the Warmahordes starter box is an amazing deal, but let's look at why it is a great deal. As an old WM/H player I will tell you that an average player spends over $200 a year on the game (average) which if you play one faction in Armada that will get you most of wave 1 and 2 with your core set.

Warmahordes is not cheap in the long run. (Still cheaper the GW though.)

The Warmachine 2-player Battle box looks like a deal until you realize they are selling you mostly models that you'll never use if you actually play the game.

The Hordes box is slightly better as Skin Walkers are decent, but still suffers from the same issue.

A player getting in to either system would be better off putting the money elsewhere.

The Warmachine 2-player Battle box looks like a deal until you realize they are selling you mostly models that you'll never use if you actually play the game.

The Hordes box is slightly better as Skin Walkers are decent, but still suffers from the same issue.

A player getting in to either system would be better off putting the money elsewhere.

One of the reasons I left the game was all the Netlisting and the importance of it. Took the fun out for me personally.

Warmahordes is not cheap in the long run. (Still cheaper the GW though.)

Warmahordes would of been my main game if I had more people playing it. When I got it, my LGS was pretty much 40k and MtG. Then I got into Flames of War, which is very fun especially if you are into WWII stuff.

Both of them are cheaper than GW but that's hardly a lofty goal to shoot for. That said, they are both about on par with the cost of a FFG game, when you consider what it costs to play a tournament legal list.

The same seems to hold true for games like Infinity, Battletech, or even Malifaux. They all run about the same price. Armada and X-Wing also run about the same price, even though the core set is more you need fewer ships in Armada.

The only really reasonable way to judge the cost of a wargame IMO is the cost per list. How many lists can you make by spending $X? In that I think X-Wing is quite a ways ahead of most other games.

Well said VanorDM.

That says a lot about your posting history here then. When you get called on a text book no true scotsman comment...

Which I find to be uncalled for and I admitted openly that it's my own opinion based on my experience and what I read/heard from friends/random people on forums, although I guess this again makes it such "fallacy" due to "hiding" behind someone's-opinion-that-I-use-as-argument-although-I-most-likely-made-it-up-to-prove-my-point-and-feel-smarter, so I revert to saying that it's just my opinion.

It really troubles me how some people get hostile instead of having a civil conversation. Oh well, I rest my case - I am not going to participate in some lowly passive-aggressive comment exchange, have a nice afternoon.

@Klerych. Yes, the Warmahordes starter box is an amazing deal, but let's look at why it is a great deal. As an old WM/H player I will tell you that an average player spends over $200 a year on the game (average) which if you play one faction in Armada that will get you most of wave 1 and 2 with your core set.

Warmahordes is not cheap in the long run. (Still cheaper the GW though.)

Oh, I am well aware of how expensive that game is. Although it might take some time before you jump for 35 or 50pts and/or before you go for the tournament rules with two 50pt unique lists per player.

The Warmachine 2-player Battle box looks like a deal until you realize they are selling you mostly models that you'll never use if you actually play the game.

The Hordes box is slightly better as Skin Walkers are decent, but still suffers from the same issue.

A player getting in to either system would be better off putting the money elsewhere.

Isn't Menoth side pretty nice, though? I mean... swap those Cinerators for Bastions or Errants, add Choir and a Vassal and you will have a solid base for typical menoth netlist, only waiting for the book guy, seneschals and knights errant and voilla, generic "Menoth is broken" tournament netlist*.

*- haven't played WM/H in a year, so I don't know if that's still the case with Menoth lists, but it was back then!

As for other factions... Circle ain't bad and Legion... Legion is specific, but you're going to use the little guys and the Carnivean, so it's just the ogruns that are mediocre, but they can be upgraded by their UA that makes them decent.

Edit: derp, typo.

The Menoth side's Jacks are useful. Cinerators are just completely horrible. The entire Khador side save for the caster ranges from meh to not worth buying. All depending on if you plan to actually play the game or just shuffle models around the kitchen table. In the latter it's great value, in the former you are likely to feel a bit suckered.

I wonder if Peter Cushing would play Star Wars: X-Wing or Star Wars: Armada. My money would be on Armada but he does like smaller tactical scale too.

https://youtu.be/BGag8Qllgnw