The latter picture:

-not painted

-not assembled

+outstanding detail

The latter picture:

-not painted

-not assembled

+outstanding detail

GW does make truly impressive works of art, to be sure. But the ultimate price-point for an army in their games is staggeringly higher than Armada. I was just illustrating the point.

But your bullet-points and emphasize the point. In fact, I'll amend my post.

I agree with many here about the cost of the starter set. Yes, it is more expensive than X-Wing.

Well, of course it is.

You're comparing 1 X-Wing and 2 TIE Fighters to 1 VSD, 1 Nebulon, 1 CR90, 6 squadrons of TIEs, and 4 Squadrons of X-Wings.

Core-only Armada felt like a complete game experience, whereas core-only X-Wing felt like a good start.

A few months ago, when I first discovered X-Wing, I played the starting scenarios with 1 core set from X-Wing, and while interesting, was hardly the same as when I recently played just the core Armada set.

Even two core X-Wing sets wasn't enough for a full game feel. Once I added in a Lambda, Interceptors, B-Wings, etc. that really made it work. Certainly more than $100 in to X-Wing at that point.

Now, after having bought 2 core X-Wing sets, plus at least 2 of every other small-based ship, and at least 1 of each large, and the 2 epics, here I am, hundreds of X-Wing dollars later, thinking if I want to buy in to Armada or not.

$70 for the core really isn't that bad. (68.99 CSI)

$130 for the other 8 of wave 1 (131.92 CSI)

Total of $200 for one of everything, not counting wave 2.

After having played once, I'm sold. No questions.

EDIT: Organized my thoughts a bit better, and added the links below.

CSI Armada - new TV show?

MM Armada

I guess it all depends on what you paid. If you got a deal online (or pre-order), then maybe you look at this thread and say "whats all the complaining about?"

Me, I paid full retail for my core and i'm not complaining. but it can be a tough sell to friends who are on the fence or deeply into another game.

But because I intend to buy both Rebel and Imperial ships, I will buy my expansions online for the best deal I can find.

reactions can largely depend on what kind of gamer they are:

card gamer: $100 for 3 little toy ships!?!?!

x-wing gamer: yeesh, thats a little high but i'll prob do it.

40k gamer: thats just for the rulebook right?

X-Wing was my first miniature-style game. Now that I look at my calendar, it was almost 6 months ago.

Armada will be my 2nd.

Is 40K really that bad?

I keep hearing horror stories of costs for that game. And if I'm not mistaken, nothing's painted either, right?

EDIT: I also hear stories of people in UK, or AUS and I can't help but feel bad that in today's world there isn't a better solution. I also can't help but think that in tomorrow's world of fast, cheap, accurate 3D printing that things might get better for our friends around the globe!

@Lifer4700 I priced a 1500 points Chaos Space Marine army (keep in mind 1850 is the most commonly played at points level) at $549, that would have been my buy in to start playing the game, also that is before buying the paint and taking the time to assemble it. If I had gone with a builder/painter to do it for me the starting cost would have been in the ballpark of $700.

Is 40K really that bad?

lol...

Yes it is. I had a 1750 point Space Marine army. that's about the same as a 400 point Armada fleet, relatively speaking. Had a lot more models but was at the top end points wise of what people would play.

Right now to buy the models, which come unassembled, and unpainted, it would cost me around $800. Then factor in the man hours to assemble and paint them again...

That's the thing I think... Those of us who have been tabletop war gamers for a while look at the price of Armada or X-Wing and just shake our heads when someone complains about the cost.

That's not to say that being cheaper than GW is something to be proud of, but it does show how much we're used to paying for this hobby.

Most other games aren't as expensive as GW either, Flames of War, Infinity, Warmachine/Hordes, all are cheaper, but they're also all as if not more expensive the FFG games are.

X-Wing was my first miniature-style game. Now that I look at my calendar, it was almost 6 months ago.

Armada will be my 2nd.

Is 40K really that bad?

I keep hearing horror stories of costs for that game. And if I'm not mistaken, nothing's painted either, right?

EDIT: I also hear stories of people in UK, or AUS and I can't help but feel bad that in today's world there isn't a better solution. I also can't help but think that in tomorrow's world of fast, cheap, accurate 3D printing that things might get better for our friends around the globe!

Neither painted nor assembled. 40k used to be affordable, once upon a time.

40K, and GW games in general, are really that bad. I don't think the above comparison is fair - it is actually much worse for the GW model:

How many colors of paint are on it? At least a dozen, and that's +$4 each for Citadel. There's also brushes, glue, primer, clear coat, sculpting tools, files, flock, green stuff, drills, pinning tools, craft knives... oh yeah, and TIME. On top of the greater dollar amount, it is a pretty huge opportunity cost if you're not that interested in painting/craft stuff.

I actually do like the craft stuff, but it is annoying when you buy a new unit for your army and you can't use them until you find time to assemble and paint. It is also annoying when you need to paint dozens and dozens of the same guy to have your army complete (yeah, I played Skaven and IG ).

(yeah, I played Skaven and IG ).

I never could understand how anyone could paint a big IG army... My 3 squads of Space Marines were bad enough.

Dont forget, to play 40K you also need modelling supplies, tools, paint and glue. Then you also need the core rulebook and army codex book for your chosen army.

Plus every few years they pump out a new core rulebook and new army books. you'll have to re-buy those. source: my 5th and 6th edition rulebooks that are now useless. (sold the minis though!)

The current core rulebook is $85 USD. Codex books are $49.50 USD. thats JUST the books to play, not including any dice, templates or miniatures.

40K, and GW games in general, are really that bad. I don't think the above comparison is fair - it is actually much worse for the GW model:

How many colors of paint are on it? At least a dozen, and that's +$4 each for Citadel. There's also brushes, glue, primer, clear coat, sculpting tools, files, flock, green stuff, drills, pinning tools, craft knives... oh yeah, and TIME. On top of the greater dollar amount, it is a pretty huge opportunity cost if you're not that interested in painting/craft stuff.

I actually do like the craft stuff, but it is annoying when you buy a new unit for your army and you can't use them until you find time to assemble and paint. It is also annoying when you need to paint dozens and dozens of the same guy to have your army complete (yeah, I played Skaven and IG ).

My condolences.

It was silly. I had to make a rule that I was only allowed to make another cool weapons team conversion after I had painted a regular infantry squad. The Skaven were actually worse - it was a headache just to line them up in formation because of their tails. I had to number each one individually to fit in the movement trays.

PSA: Do not get into GW games unless you *really, really* like painting and futzing around with tiny pieces of plastic and having small cuts, glue, and stains all over your hands. Just talking about this stuff makes me SO GLAD for FFG's pre-paints!

PSA: Do not get into GW games unless you *really, really* like painting and futzing around with tiny pieces of plastic and having small cuts, glue, and stains all over your hands. Just talking about this stuff makes me SO GLAD for FFG's pre-paints!

When I first saw X-wing miniatures and how good they looked out-of-box AND their cost....I remember hearing angelic chorus. I stood there in my LGS with glassy eyes, my bottom lip quivering for many minutes.

Although let's not use the "unpainted" as an argument against 40k/WFB/EVERY SINGLE WARGAME OUT THERE.

In fact, it's pretty much expected, because painting and modelling (also converting) is a huge part of wargaming (sorry, X-Wing players, but you are board gamers more than wargamers!) and if you offered pre-painted miniatures to majority of true wargamers they'd laugh you in the face, because they like to paint and assemble their minis the way they want.

Sure, some people get tired of painting stuff or dislike it because they're bad at it and don't have the time and nerves to practice it, but even then, a single game with pre-painted minis is more like an exception that proves the rule. Hell, if you only knew how much against single-pose miniatures (like most skirmish games have) some people are... and I agree with them - posing my own little plastic army men the way I want is a fantastic experience.

Fortunately it's not the same with ships, but look at Spartan Games' products with unpainted ships and starships. People like painting their own stuff, it's just that pre-painted miniatures are better for casual people.

Although let's not use the "unpainted" as an argument against 40k/WFB/EVERY SINGLE WARGAME OUT THERE.

In fact, it's pretty much expected, because painting and modelling (also converting) is a huge part of wargaming (sorry, X-Wing players, but you are board gamers more than wargamers!) and if you offered pre-painted miniatures to majority of true wargamers they'd laugh you in the face, because they like to paint and assemble their minis the way they want.

Sure, some people get tired of painting stuff or dislike it because they're bad at it and don't have the time and nerves to practice it, but even then, a single game with pre-painted minis is more like an exception that proves the rule. Hell, if you only knew how much against single-pose miniatures (like most skirmish games have) some people are... and I agree with them - posing my own little plastic army men the way I want is a fantastic experience.

Fortunately it's not the same with ships, but look at Spartan Games' products with unpainted ships and starships. People like painting their own stuff, it's just that pre-painted miniatures are better for casual people.

And yet, I burned out on the typical war-gaming hobby after painting a few armies over the years. Now I appreciate a game in which I don't have to paint a thing. And I like the craft hobby aspect of most games. I'm just sick of doing it to make my army playable. Now it's just something I do for a creative outlet when I'm in the mood.

For me "prepainted" it is a big selling point for FFG's games. And the fact that their paint-jobs are pretty well done just seals the deal.

I've been into 40K since the original Rogue Trader. I've bought, assembled, and painted more plastic and pewter from GW than I care to think about. And over the the years the cost of it has crept slowly into the exorbitant range.

Now it's just more worth my money and time to buy a cheaper (in grand total) game that I don't have to paint anything for. FFG has nailed that with their business model. And that they did so without falling into the "collectible" random booster tar-pit just makes me that much happier with them.

Add to that my experience that the FFG games are just plain fun and high quality, and my shopping preference is pretty much locked in.

Also...STAR WARS!

Although let's not use the "unpainted" as an argument against 40k/WFB/EVERY SINGLE WARGAME OUT THERE.

Perhaps not against those games, but pre-painted minis are certainly a great argument in favor of x-wing/armada. Plus, nothing stops you from re-painting them. There are some stunning repaints of x-wing ships out there, expect to see the same with Armada.

because painting and modelling (also converting) is a huge part of wargaming

That's only true because for so long there was no option. There's no real question that a big part of X-Wing's popularity is the fact that people don't have to be able to paint to put a good looking list on the table.

According to some reports, X-Wing is the 2nd most popular wargame out there, after 40k. Beating WFB, Warmachine/Hordes and the rest.

if you offered pre-painted miniatures to majority of true wargamers they'd laugh you in the face, because they like to paint and assemble their minis the way they want.

No, not true. Not based on the number of GW refugees we see in the X-Wing boards saying how nice it is not to have to assemble and paint everything.

But then again, pretty much everything that Klerych said in this post, is a prime example of the No-True-Scottsman fallacy.

because painting and modelling (also converting) is a huge part of wargaming

That's only true because for so long there was no option. There's no real question that a big part of X-Wing's popularity is the fact that people don't have to be able to paint to put a good looking list on the table.

According to some reports, X-Wing is the 2nd most popular wargame out there, after 40k. Beating WFB, Warmachine/Hordes and the rest.

if you offered pre-painted miniatures to majority of true wargamers they'd laugh you in the face, because they like to paint and assemble their minis the way they want.

No, not true. Not based on the number of GW refugees we see in the X-Wing boards saying how nice it is not to have to assemble and paint everything.

But then again, pretty much everything that Klerych said in this post, is a prime example of the No-True-Scottsman fallacy.

My LGS is chocked full of them, myself included.

One of our best and most prolific painters (who was an outrider for GW once upon a time) went whole-hog into X-Wing, and a big part of why was the prepainted miniatures.

X-Wing was, I feel, revolutionary to tabletop miniature gaming. Affordable, fun, great looking, no complicated terrain and of course the IP of Star Wars to back it. X-wing caused MANY gamers in my city to abandon 40k. This came at a time of ever increasing GW prices, broken rules/codexes, (codices, I know) and cheesy spam army lists.

Armada now stands in a position to take advantage of the splash that X-wing helped create. What I enjoyed most about 40k was the lore/fluff. So while I'm completely divested from 40k tabletop, I still play Dawn of War and Space Hulk on PC and I also play Dark Heresy/Only War/Deathwatch RPG and Conquest LCG made by....you guessed it: Fantasy Flight Games.

I know that painting has been bundled with wargaming for a while now, but I don't know why it is treated as an integral part. Why should I necessarily be interested in painting and conversions to be interested in playing a game? It doesn't make sense to me. It's like having a football league in which you have to sew your own jersey.

In terms of people wanting to paint, I have found the opposite case: My friends found WH/40K interesting, but the assembly and painting required was a huge negative. I only got two people to try it, and that was by sharing all of my painting supplies. Only one of them actually played. I have gotten more people into XWM by just leaving the minis out on my desk at work.

Well I do like painting GW models a lot. I just hate it when I "have" to do it en masse. Don't really play it anymore due to time constraints.

Big selling points for Armada and X-Wing in my opinion?

1. Easy startup. Roll the mat. Chuck the 'roids on the table. Deploy ships. GO!

2. Streamlined rules and intuitive gameplay.

3. Game time is reasonable.

4. Pre-paints. They look ok ("tabletop quality")

5. Price. As 40k gamer these are more than reasonable. (Necrons, Blood Angels, Realm of Battle gaming table, scenery, bucketload of paints and tools, airbrush etc etc...)

The vibrant colours and really awesome paintjobs are not really realistic to ask for in Star Wars setting due to price and artistic style.

Calling Armada and X-Wing a miniature game is a bit of a stretch because basically the relevant parts are the bases and templates, not the miniatures themselves. But I do have FUN when I play these games. And because they are so easy to setup I get a lot of game time too which translates directly into more fun!

Late night ramble.

Well I do like painting GW models a lot. I just hate it when I "have" to do it en masse. Don't really play it anymore due to time constraints.

Big selling points for Armada and X-Wing in my opinion?

1. Easy startup. Roll the mat. Chuck the 'roids on the table. Deploy ships. GO!

2. Streamlined rules and intuitive gameplay.

3. Game time is reasonable.

4. Pre-paints. They look ok ("tabletop quality")

5. Price. As 40k gamer these are more than reasonable. (Necrons, Blood Angels, Realm of Battle gaming table, scenery, bucketload of paints and tools, airbrush etc etc...)

The vibrant colours and really awesome paintjobs are not really realistic to ask for in Star Wars setting due to price and artistic style.

Calling Armada and X-Wing a miniature game is a bit of a stretch because basically the relevant parts are the bases and templates, not the miniatures themselves. But I do have FUN when I play these games. And because they are so easy to setup I get a lot of game time too which translates directly into more fun!

Late night ramble.

Oh, I dunno. It has miniatures, is played on a tabletop on "terrain", and has dice rolling and stat blocks. That's pretty much intrinsic to any given miniatures game.

Granted, all the cards and tokens blur the lines with board games and card games. FFG has, in essence, created a hybrid game of a few game types, and brilliantly so.

because painting and modelling (also converting) is a huge part of wargaming

That's only true because for so long there was no option. There's no real question that a big part of X-Wing's popularity is the fact that people don't have to be able to paint to put a good looking list on the table.

According to some reports, X-Wing is the 2nd most popular wargame out there, after 40k. Beating WFB, Warmachine/Hordes and the rest.

if you offered pre-painted miniatures to majority of true wargamers they'd laugh you in the face, because they like to paint and assemble their minis the way they want.

No, not true. Not based on the number of GW refugees we see in the X-Wing boards saying how nice it is not to have to assemble and paint everything.

But then again, pretty much everything that Klerych said in this post, is a prime example of the No-True-Scottsman fallacy.

I'm somewhat tired of such hostility. As to your first argument - I don't really think X-wing is a wargame. It's more of a board game with no board and you can see that even in the way FFG wrote the instruction - it's made with board gamers and casuals in mind (which, to forestall such unnecessary comments, doesn't mean everyone else can't play or won't enjoy it, obviously).

I could use my friends/local community's views on these matters, but I don't want to be accused of "No-True-Scottsman fallacy", so hereby I openly admit that this is my opinion and I am not ashamed of it. I speak for myself and from my experience, be it from forums, real life or whatever.

And I mentioned that X-Wing and Armada are quite some exception to the view on pre-painted miniatures. I remember the time when AT-43 tried to make it on the market and you could see the outrage all over the forums that the miniatures are ugly and that people would rather paint their miniatures themselves, although you have to see the difference between a starship/starfighter and a human figure.

So, yeah, while I understand that pre-painted miniatures are a great selling point for X-wing and Armada because they found their niches now that people got tired of being forced to paint lots and lots of grey plastic, I still believe it's just an exception and that unpainted models will still be more desirable among the majority of wargamers. But, again, that's just my opinion.

I know that painting has been bundled with wargaming for a while now, but I don't know why it is treated as an integral part. Why should I necessarily be interested in painting and conversions to be interested in playing a game? It doesn't make sense to me. It's like having a football league in which you have to sew your own jersey.

In terms of people wanting to paint, I have found the opposite case: My friends found WH/40K interesting, but the assembly and painting required was a huge negative. I only got two people to try it, and that was by sharing all of my painting supplies. Only one of them actually played. I have gotten more people into XWM by just leaving the minis out on my desk at work.

I never said that you should be forced to paint stuff or that games should not have pre-painted minis - quite the opposite - the more diversity on the market the better.

As for your friends... see, I actually was talking about wargamers with some experience and until now (aside from a few systems that died a horrible death) wargaming market was pretty much all unpainted. Please, don't take that as an insult, because it's none, but your friends sound more like casuals/board gamers, which I wasn't talking about although it somewhat proves my point about the target audience of X-Wing.

because painting and modelling (also converting) is a huge part of wargaming

That's only true because for so long there was no option. There's no real question that a big part of X-Wing's popularity is the fact that people don't have to be able to paint to put a good looking list on the table.

According to some reports, X-Wing is the 2nd most popular wargame out there, after 40k. Beating WFB, Warmachine/Hordes and the rest.

if you offered pre-painted miniatures to majority of true wargamers they'd laugh you in the face, because they like to paint and assemble their minis the way they want.

No, not true. Not based on the number of GW refugees we see in the X-Wing boards saying how nice it is not to have to assemble and paint everything.

But then again, pretty much everything that Klerych said in this post, is a prime example of the No-True-Scottsman fallacy.

I'm somewhat tired of such hostility. As to your first argument - I don't really think X-wing is a wargame. It's more of a board game with no board and you can see that even in the way FFG wrote the instruction - it's made with board gamers and casuals in mind (which, to forestall such unnecessary comments, doesn't mean everyone else can't play or won't enjoy it, obviously).

I could use my friends/local community's views on these matters, but I don't want to be accused of "No-True-Scottsman fallacy", so hereby I openly admit that this is my opinion and I am not ashamed of it. I speak for myself and from my experience, be it from forums, real life or whatever.

And I mentioned that X-Wing and Armada are quite some exception to the view on pre-painted miniatures. I remember the time when AT-43 tried to make it on the market and you could see the outrage all over the forums that the miniatures are ugly and that people would rather paint their miniatures themselves, although you have to see the difference between a starship/starfighter and a human figure.

So, yeah, while I understand that pre-painted miniatures are a great selling point for X-wing and Armada because they found their niches now that people got tired of being forced to paint lots and lots of grey plastic, I still believe it's just an exception and that unpainted models will still be more desirable among the majority of wargamers. But, again, that's just my opinion.

I know that painting has been bundled with wargaming for a while now, but I don't know why it is treated as an integral part. Why should I necessarily be interested in painting and conversions to be interested in playing a game? It doesn't make sense to me. It's like having a football league in which you have to sew your own jersey.

In terms of people wanting to paint, I have found the opposite case: My friends found WH/40K interesting, but the assembly and painting required was a huge negative. I only got two people to try it, and that was by sharing all of my painting supplies. Only one of them actually played. I have gotten more people into XWM by just leaving the minis out on my desk at work.

I never said that you should be forced to paint stuff or that games should not have pre-painted minis - quite the opposite - the more diversity on the market the better.

As for your friends... see, I actually was talking about wargamers with some experience and until now (aside from a few systems that died a horrible death) wargaming market was pretty much all unpainted. Please, don't take that as an insult, because it's none, but your friends sound more like casuals/board gamers, which I wasn't talking about although it somewhat proves my point about the target audience of X-Wing.

At my LGS the vast majority of the XW and Armada players are the war-gamers. Most of whom still buy unpainted minis for various games, but several of whom now prefer XW and Armada because of the lack of work-load. And those that still prefer more traditional war-games still play XW and Armada because they make a nice sideline game that they don't have to put any additional work into.

Some have completely sold off their other war-game collections in preference for FFGs games.