There is no squad that is an auto-win against any other competitive squad in this game.

You are wrong if the game goes to time -- there are absolutely matchups where a lack of partial points almost certainly determines the victor if the game goes to time. Allow me to introduce you to this matchup that I discussed on NOVA episode #19.

Player #1 (me)

(60) Han + PtL + Kyle + C-3P0 + MF + EU

(40) Horn + FCS + R3-A2 + VI

Player #2 (opponent)

(62) Han + VI + Luke + MF + C-3P0 + EU

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

His Han is built such that it is physically impossible to keep my Horn alive. He moves after Horn, can boost towards him, and has Luke gunner for a 2nd attack. My Horn does not regenerate shields and will eventually die vs his Han. He has then scored 40 points, and automatically wins as long as I don't kill his Han.

I recognized this and had his Han down to 5 HP after the first pass. Then my Horn inevitably died and he spent the rest of the game running his Han away and playing slowly. The game ended with 8HP on my Han and 1 HP on his Han.

There is literally nothing that could be done differently at a tactical level except for adding more time onto the clock. We had 75 minute rounds and the game still went to time.

There is no squad that is an auto-win against any other competitive squad in this game.

You are wrong if the game goes to time -- there are absolutely matchups where a lack of partial points almost certainly determines the victor if the game goes to time. Allow me to introduce you to this matchup that I discussed on NOVA episode #19.

Player #1 (me)

(60) Han + PtL + Kyle + C-3P0 + MF + EU

(40) Horn + FCS + R3-A2 + VI

Player #2 (opponent)

(62) Han + VI + Luke + MF + C-3P0 + EU

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

His Han is built such that it is physically impossible to keep my Horn alive. He moves after Horn, can boost towards him, and has Luke gunner for a 2nd attack. My Horn does not regenerate shields and will eventually die vs his Han. He has then scored 40 points, and automatically wins as long as I don't kill his Han.

I recognized this and had his Han down to 5 HP after the first pass. Then my Horn inevitably died and he spent the rest of the game running his Han away and playing slowly. The game ended with 8HP on my Han and 1 HP on his Han.

There is literally nothing that could be done differently at a tactical level except for adding more time onto the clock. We had 75 minute rounds and the game still went to time.

So, are you saying you flew a perfect game? If this same game was played 100 times between 200 different people, the result would be the same each time? That's rather presumptuous.

Another example is the inclusion of R2-D2 on Fat Han, something that Heaver pioneered as a means of making the match-up against Gunner Han unwinnable within a tournament time window. .

Unwinnable when it is one-on-one. It doesn't have to come down to being one-on-one. Paul Heaver won by outflying his opponent early on. Remember when he got Han out of arc of those bandits? The infamous 4 straight? That is the turn that set up his victory.

So, are you saying you flew a perfect game? If this same game was played 100 times between 200 different people, the result would be the same each time? That's rather presumptuous.

In a word, yes. I challenge you to find a way to win that game at time against a competent player. It pretty much can't be done. Believe me I have thought about it. This was my only loss in the store championship season. I only played in 2, but when its the only loss you tend to think about it more.

You keep missing the key point in this matchup: all he has to do is kill my Horn and then run away and win on time. His Han is PS11 and can boost after my PS10 Horn moves. And he has Luke Gunner, and my Horn does not have R2-D2.

I had played and beaten this same player at an earlier SC, flying the same Phat Han Sad Horn build vs his 4 ship rebel list. Incidentally that game also went to time. In retrospect, I believe that he built his Han specifically to beat my squad. I know for a fact that he brought the Talas with Assault Missiles because he knew that another player that he would likely face was bringing BXXZZZ.

Tactically I did several things that severely hindered him. His Talas got no shots the first round while I 2v1'ed his Han. Next round his Talas couldn't get Target Lock on my Horn so they had to attack Horn with primaries at long range. After the initial engagement (which my Han was still at 13HP) his 5 HP Han had been pushed into a dense asteroid field and it was going to be at least 3 rounds before his Han could re-engage, giving my Han plenty of time to clear out his Talas.

Of course killing his Talas literally did not matter for this game, so I circled my Han around to re-engage his Han as fast as possible, and in the process swatted his pesky Talas down taking minimal damage.

I did as much damage to Han that I could before he killed my Horn. That is the absolute best that I could hope for in that circumstance. If the game did not go to time then it was very clear that I was going to win, which he readily admitted to me. Tactically, I was winning by a landslide after the first engagement even after my Horn died.

The win condition was extremely simple: if the game goes to time then he wins provided he inevitably kills my Horn. If the game does not go to time, then I still have to beat his squad but at least I have a chance at winning.

Edited for redundancy.

I had played and beaten this same player at an earlier SC, flying the same Phat Han Sad Horn build vs his 4 ship rebel list. Incidentally that game also went to time. In retrospect, I believe that he built his Han specifically to beat my squad.

Nah, he didn't. I know for a fact he built the squad that morning before driving to the event directly due to my BXXZZZ. He's also not played it since that event. Just a bad match up, but that is the case with the two ship builds...you lose one and your on the cusp. Works the same for all match ups and not sure MJ would have been able to catch him in 90 minutes. Keeping a damaged ship out of range is not slow playing, it is smart playing, and both players in the mentioned match up are smart players.

I had played and beaten this same player at an earlier SC, flying the same Phat Han Sad Horn build vs his 4 ship rebel list. Incidentally that game also went to time. In retrospect, I believe that he built his Han specifically to beat my squad.

Nah, he didn't. I know for a fact he built the squad that morning before driving to the event directly due to my BXXZZZ. He's also not played it since that event. Just a bad match up, but that is the case with the two ship builds...you lose one and your on the cusp. Works the same for all match ups and not sure MJ would have been able to catch him in 90 minutes. Keeping a damaged ship out of range is not slow playing, it is smart playing, and both players in the mentioned match up are smart players.

Well incidentally it was a very good squad to match up to mine, it really was the perfect counter for a timed game.

I had him on 1HP at the end, trapped in the corner, so it certainly looked like it would only take 1 more round. It could potentially have been dragged out to 2 or 3 rounds with bumping shenanigans to avoid combat.

@ 90 minutes it would depend on how fast / slow the rest of the game went.

True on all accounts. There is only so much space on the mat to run too.

Unwinnable when it is one-on-one. It doesn't have to come down to being one-on-one. Paul Heaver won by outflying his opponent early on. Remember when he got Han out of arc of those bandits? The infamous 4 straight? That is the turn that set up his victory.

You keep missing the key point in this matchup: all he has to do is kill my Horn and then run away and win on time. His Han is PS11 and can boost after my PS10 Horn moves. And he has Luke Gunner, and my Horn does not have R2-D2.

Nope, I get that point. His squad is a hard counter to yours.

I was responding to President J with that comment, I should have quoted him, but this forum is not easy to use on my phone.

I agree, that's a darn tough fight. Maybe I am a bit more conservative with my superlatives. I still don't think any matchup is categorically unwinnable.

There is nothing wrong with him building a squad to counter yours- a build which he knows he will be facing. Take your lumps, and build a squad to counter his. You came across a corner case, where it was extremely difficult for you to win. That's life, I don't think it means there is something wrong with the scoring system, just part of the game.

Clearly I don't know how to use this forum on my phone. My bad^

Clearly I don't know how to use this forum on my phone. My bad^

Ha, no worries, the quote system on the phone can be brutal!

Edit:

I agree, that's a darn tough fight. Maybe I am a bit more conservative with my superlatives. I still don't think any matchup is categorically unwinnable.

Well, I could have gotten Gods Own Dice and rolled nothing but 3+ evades on Corran the entire game! That would have done it!

So, to change the subject back to the fact that it's now a requirement to have a 75min round, is anyone planning on changing their squads around?

I for one am thinking about experimenting with 4 A wings now. I've consistently been told that I fly A Wings better than anyone else, and I love how the ship flies, but normally you can't kill things quick enough to win fast enough, but they shine brilliantly in the end game (especially Psycho Tycho). Now with the rounds being extended 15 minutes, I have a much better shot at utilizing that time.

So, to change the subject back to the fact that it's now a requirement to have a 75min round, is anyone planning on changing their squads around?

Personally, I tend to approach every matchup with the most effective tactics in mind, not MoV, so 75 minute rounds are a pleasant surprise. I'm still not sure what I will bring. I have been playing IG88BD a lot, but there is a lot of time until Regionals.

Nope, I get that point. His squad is a hard counter to yours.

I was responding to President J with that comment, I should have quoted him, but this forum is not easy to use on my phone.

I agree, that's a darn tough fight. Maybe I am a bit more conservative with my superlatives. I still don't think any matchup is categorically unwinnable.

There is nothing wrong with him building a squad to counter yours- a build which he knows he will be facing. Take your lumps, and build a squad to counter his. You came across a corner case, where it was extremely difficult for you to win. That's life, I don't think it means there is something wrong with the scoring system, just part of the game.

I'm not sure what kit Majorjuggler was running on Horn, but imo, this is not even close to the definition of a hard counter, especially without the timer ( I've seen Horn handle falcons on his own with the right build and tactics).

In fact, it's clear that MJ, from his perspective, was able to hit Han very hard early and essentially had the advantage from the start. The only reason he lost was due to slower than normal play and the timer. So, telling him to "take his lumps" and that this is a "that's life" or that this list was a hard counter doesn't really make a lot of sense - at all.. It actually pretty clearly points to the scoring system and time as an issue in this particular matchup. The other player couldn't have won through the basic objective of the game (destroying your opponents ships) because he couldn't take another shot on Majorjuggler's Han without likely taking return fire that would have dropped him. That's good play in that situation, but he was only able to achieve victory because there was a timer and because of the scoring system.

I'm not sure what kit Majorjuggler was running on Horn, but imo, this is not even close to the definition of a hard counter, especially without the timer ( I've seen Horn handle falcons on his own with the right build and tactics).

Here are the builds again. My Horn did not have R2-D2 on him, so 5 damage and he goes kablam. In a normal matchup you can keep him alive and flying him defensively at PS10, but vs a PS11 Han with EU and Luke crew this isn't an option. For reference this "Phat Han Sad Horn" build has won at least 2 store championships: one by myself and one out near Omaha with 20-something players. So in this case his PS11 EU + gunner Han actually did hard counter my non-regenerating Horn. That doesn't mean that I can't win outright, it just means that since his Han is fatter I need to wipe his entire squad to win. My only option was to do as much damage as possible before going down in a blaze of glory, which I accomplished very well. Sadly I still lost on time.

Player #1 (me)

(60) Han + PtL + Kyle + C-3P0 + MF + EU

(40) Horn + FCS + R3-A2 + VI

Player #2 (opponent)

(62) Han + VI + Luke + MF + C-3P0 + EU

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

I'm not sure what kit Majorjuggler was running on Horn, but imo, this is not even close to the definition of a hard counter, especially without the timer ( I've seen Horn handle falcons on his own with the right build and tactics).

Here are the builds again. My Horn did not have R2-D2 on him, so 5 damage and he goes kablam. In a normal matchup you can keep him alive and flying him defensively at PS10, but vs a PS11 Han with EU and Luke crew this isn't an option. For reference this "Phat Han Sad Horn" build has won at least 2 store championships: one by myself and one out near Omaha with 20-something players. So in this case his PS11 EU + gunner Han actually did hard counter my non-regenerating Horn. That doesn't mean that I can't win outright, it just means that since his Han is fatter I need to wipe his entire squad to win. My only option was to do as much damage as possible before going down in a blaze of glory, which I accomplished very well. Sadly I still lost on time.

Player #1 (me)

(60) Han + PtL + Kyle + C-3P0 + MF + EU

(40) Horn + FCS + R3-A2 + VI

Player #2 (opponent)

(62) Han + VI + Luke + MF + C-3P0 + EU

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

(19) Tala + Assault Missiles + Munitions Failsafe

That makes sense. I still don't call that a "hard counter" but you still took the right strategy in the matchup, held an advantage, and only lost because of tournament rule constraints. You wouldn't have lost in the finals or if it had been otherwise untimed, which is more how the game is designed and balanced.

EDIT: Also, I think you may be over-estimating / exaggerating the difficulty of adding clocks to the game.

Yeah, I've played plenty of games with clocks before.

It's not hard.

EDIT: Also, I think you may be over-estimating / exaggerating the difficulty of adding clocks to the game.

Yeah, I've played plenty of games with clocks before.

It's not hard.

In chess, no. But that's because each player has a clearly defined turn. X-wing does not have clearly defined turns, and both players can be actively involved at the same time. It cannot be done in a realistic or reasonable way.

That makes sense. I still don't call that a "hard counter" but you still took the right strategy in the matchup, held an advantage, and only lost because of tournament rule constraints. You wouldn't have lost in the finals or if it had been otherwise untimed, which is more how the game is designed and balanced.

Right, in an untimed game it is not a hard counter at all. But because of the MoV breakdown, his 62 > 60, and I can't prevent my 40 points from dying. So in that respect it is a hard counter if you could guarantee that the game would go to time.

That makes sense. I still don't call that a "hard counter" but you still took the right strategy in the matchup, held an advantage, and only lost because of tournament rule constraints. You wouldn't have lost in the finals or if it had been otherwise untimed, which is more how the game is designed and balanced.

Right, in an untimed game it is not a hard counter at all. But because of the MoV breakdown, his 62 > 60, and I can't prevent my 40 points from dying. So in that respect it is a hard counter if you could guarantee that the game would go to time.

I don't mean to be "that guy", but it obviously wasn't the correct strategy knowing the situation at hand. I think the correct approach, assuming you suspect your opponent would just run away when Corran dies, would be to NOT bring Corran into the fight. Then, use your Han to weaken the enemy Han as best as you can, whilst avoiding as many Z95 arcs as possible, try to escape with 3-4 HP left on Han, hope that the enemy Han is at 7-8 HP, THEN bring Corran in to dish out some damage, and use those evade tokens like a jerk to try and take 1 damage a round with Corran. Maybe then your Han could come back in with some Range 3 shots. Of course, this is barring that the Z95s have been luckily avoided, haha. This is a general approach that can be taken when flying things like Whisper + Decimator vs VI Han, or PS9 Han with Initiative, where OBVIOUSLY Whisper is gonna get wrecked by that Han, but you can do your darndest to make the Decimator take out tons of Han's HP before it inevitably has to run away, or goes up in flames. Though, of course, Whisper is a different beast than Corran.

However, once Corran and Han line up to take on the enemy Han together, and you "joust" against him, THEN the game is probably inevitably over.

Of course, I mean this as nicely as possible, as a point of discussion only, because I fully understand what you mean. I just am still a believer that any game of X Wing can be won (now that the Phantom has been mildly changed), haha.

I'm just still not convinced of a partial point system, though I do understand the type of game play that it will help fix.

This is for a few reasons:

1. I think it does harm to arc dodgers that take ANY damage during a match. As I stated in an earlier post, let's say time is called with:

1 Hull left on 35 pt Soontir + PTL + AT + Stealth Device

vs

2 x Bandit Squadron Pilots with full Hull/Shields

Soontir obviously has a very solid chance at winning this match, even with the SD discarded from taking damage. In a partial points system, Soontir loses this match, ~12 pts to 24 pts, which stinks, since this ship excels in this situation. Maybe all arc dodgers fall prey to this. I wonder if there are other situations like this that cannot be resolved by partial points.

2. During the last few rounds of a match, there is very little reason to hunt down a 1 HP ship. Heck, there is very little reason to run away with a 1 HP ship. Any ship sitting at 1 HP has the great ability to be used as bait, letting your other ships set up shots, knowing your opponent HAS to do that final point of damage to get any points for the ship. In general, this is a really fun, rewarding tactic that adds a layer of depth to the game above "joust and see who does more hit points before time is called".

I just wonder if a partial scoring system will transform the game away from what it is right now, because what X Wing is right now is a really fantastic game. There just happens to be this "big ship living at low hp and possibly stalling/avoiding combat to pull out the win" that needs to be resolved.

3. This is one I just thought of, and I haven't thought through...Doesn't a partial scoring system just reinforce the principal of "ships that aren't costed properly are not competitive", especially in terms of durability? Will the X Wing fall further behind? Will named pilots lose some edge because you are spending points on PS?

Shameless self plug:

And as a shameless self plug, showcasing how a 1 HP turret CAN pull off a win, despite the odds, and with some small errors from my opponent, I will add this: hehehehehe...

That makes sense. I still don't call that a "hard counter" but you still took the right strategy in the matchup, held an advantage, and only lost because of tournament rule constraints. You wouldn't have lost in the finals or if it had been otherwise untimed, which is more how the game is designed and balanced.

Right, in an untimed game it is not a hard counter at all. But because of the MoV breakdown, his 62 > 60, and I can't prevent my 40 points from dying. So in that respect it is a hard counter if you could guarantee that the game would go to time.

I don't mean to be "that guy", but it obviously wasn't the correct strategy knowing the situation at hand. I think the correct approach, assuming you suspect your opponent would just run away when Corran dies, would be to NOT bring Corran into the fight.

ALL-STOP HERE!

Your solution is to engage with 60 points vs his full 100 point squad. Uhhhh.... okay. I suggest testing first to see how it works out.

You also are also forgotting/ignoring that PS10 Corran Horn cannot get away from PS11 Han with Engine Upgrade and Luke crew. His Han moves after Corran, covers more ground, has Engine Upgrade to boost afterwards, and has Luke gunner to nearly ensure damage once he gets in range. Running Corran away is physically impossible. In the scenario that you described, his Han can literally make a beeline for Corran, and trade blows with Phat Han in the process (yay turrets!), so this scenario quickly turns into:

• Corran runs away and doesn't get any shots (your suggested tactic).
• PS11 Han chases PS10 Corran and inevitably starts getting damage on him (geometry)
• Phat PS9 Han chases PS11 Han (because otherwise you lose)
• The two Talas chase PS9 Han.

This is not a winnable scenario.

Of course, I mean this as nicely as possible, as a point of discussion only, because I fully understand what you mean. I just am still a believer that any game of X Wing can be won (now that the Phantom has been mildly changed), haha.

Of course the game was winnable, I was crushing him! And then the clock ran out. This particular matchup was literally unwinnable against a competent player if the game goes to time, unless you manage godlike rolls to avoid Horn getting killed.

This is just one particular matchup, and may be an extreme case. But I am sure there are other cases like this.

Edit. P.S.

Man, MJ, I think you need to figure out a way to put this game behind you. You have discussed it a lot, and I think the ramifications are a lot less severe than you seem to think they are. You ran into a matchup that due to a strange interaction made you lose in a particularly annoying way. I get that it's upsetting, but it doesn't mean the game is broken. Spending so much energy on the only game you lost during Store Championship season is unbecoming. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see you promoting partial points so heavily before you lost that game.

Edited for taste: I need to learn to shut up

Man, MJ, I think you need to figure out a way to put this game behind you. You have discussed it a lot, and I think the ramifications are a lot less severe than you seem to think they are. You ran into a matchup that due to a strange interaction made you lose in a particularly annoying way. I get that it's upsetting, but it doesn't mean the game is broken. Spending so much energy on the only game you lost during Store Championship season is unbecoming. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see you promoting partial points so heavily before you lost that game.

Well, it was only the second tournament that I had played in, so MoV had never been a concern before. I did note after the first tournament (that I won) Fat Han in a timed match seemed really strong and probably helped me win.

In this case it's mostly dragging on because people are continuing to offer tactical advice on how I could have win the match at time, essentially without losing a ship. Which is tactically impossible. But you're right it doesn't really matter that much.

My more recent analysis has to do with MoV advantage in untimed matches, which is another interesting discussion but tangentially related to the one here. In an attempt to re-rail the discussion, I would suggest that Fat Ships still get a strong MoV benefit in timed matches. In theory the advantage of something like a dual IG88 build should be around 20 points, and that's what I am seeing in my games: about a 30 point MoV advantage in games that I win, with my opponents only getting about 10 points more MoV (than partial points) when they win.