I noticed weird thing. Before revealing plots there is "Player actions" window. But who is the first player then?

Rogue30 said:

Whomever was First Player in the last round. It hasn't changed yet. If it matters between Setup and the first plot, roll a die or something (technically, you're supposed to figure out First Player randomly during Setup and lay out/reveal in that order, but almost no one ever does because it almost never matters).

ktom said:

Yes, it's logical. Maybe I overreacted, because of Core Set definition:

"The player who wins initiative chooses who will act first during all subsequent phases of the round."

Rogue30 said:

Yeah, it's easy to become a "fundamentalist" when confronted with statements like that. The "between the lines" interpretive reading is simply that since there is nothing in the more advanced description of the timing structure saying "player stops being First Player," the status stays until a new First Player is chosen. (Sorry if I came on a little strong with the original answer.)

ktom said:

No, not at all.

I think that flow charts of the phases were added much later than basic rules, and thus the lack of precision.

Unless it is a prove that there should not be player action window before revealing plots - but that would be conspiracy theory

Rogue30 said:

Unless it is a prove that there should not be player action window before revealing plots - but that would be conspiracy theory

The full story is that the current timing structure of the game was outlined near the end of the second block. Before then, things were handled in an "everything resolves completely before the next thing can be triggered" way, which caused a lot of confusion with Responses, especially "on the way out" type things (there was no 'moribund' prior to the detailing of the timing structure). So for the game's first 2 years or so, the flow charts didn't exist. Before the charts, everyone pretty much assumed you couldn't do anything before plots were revealed, but the flow charts had the window allowing it.

On a side note, the transition between rounds has tended to be a blind spot for FFG in some of their rulings. For example, at one point they ruled (or put in the rules text) that your revealed plot was moved to the used pile at the end of the round in anticipation for the next round. This made it so that during that action window, you didn't technically have a revealed plot. The part that really made that break down, though, is that there were plots and effects that would stop players from revealing plots the next round, so if you had to move your revealed plot to the used pile at the end of the round, but couldn't reveal a new one, you technically played the next round without a plot (which, of course, was never the intention). FFG tried some card-specific rulings for awhile before revising the rules text and clarifying plot rotation to what we have now.

So yeah, there are still some artifacts in the rules text and flow charts that haven't necessarily kept up with the game's evolution. That action window before plots can be a good place to find them.

ktom said:

Hi ktom, have you ever thought of posting your own 'unofficial' f.a.q. and flowcharts to clear up some of those artifacts and perhaps add some details on other topics that often come up? Not that we don't truly appreciate your posts and assistance, but it may be less 'work' for you rather than explaining things over and over. Not to mention having a more accurate and/or detailed list of things in one place.

Stalkingwolf said:

That reminds me of the old www.ktome.com that the old message board user Zoood! set up. It sort of adressed the same issue.

I really would like such a faq or a very very detailed flowchart showing things like when deadly is applied and when the military claim is applied and why you can trigger a reponse on a moribound card but not an action. I could then just show this chart to my fellow players instead of arguing about the rules.

mischraum.de said:

It might be a little difficult to put all of that into a single flow chart. At first glance, a lot of what you mention doesn't seem like the sort of timing order things that lend themselves easily to flowcharts. They seem more like definitions that are addressed pretty specifically in the FAQ to me. Is there really much of an argument why you cannot trigger an "Any Phase" effect on a moribund card before it leaves play or why military claim comes before Responses to winning a challenge? (I'm asking that seriously. I know the answers and how to defend them with information from the FAQ, so I may be really blind as to how easy or hard it is for other people to pick the answers out of all the text.)

Frankly, it never crossed my mind to do a separate "unauthorized" FAQ of detailed flow charts and/or collected "greatest hits" from the rules board. It feels kind of arrogant and presumptuous to give myself that sort of position in the larger community. (Okay, sure, I am presumptuous and arrogant by nature, but not quite that much or that formally.) FFG goes through a few dry spells in terms of revising the FAQ, but they tend to be pretty good about keeping things up-to-date. But I suppose that if people really wanted something like that, I could look into putting something together.

I think such FAQ would be a very good idea. We might ask FFG to make such topic "sticky". Official FAQ is too short and it surely doesn't meet my expectations ("If there is a tie between the attacking and defending STR in a challenge, who wins that challenge?" Come on! Are there no better questions?).

Besides FFG could use it in future and include to official FAQ.

ktom said:

I am no native speaker. My fellow players are no native speakers. Often we argue about the meaning of definitions. If there is a picture or a very detailed flow chart there is no arguing because: YOU SEE! Things like saving someone from military claim does not mean saving him from deadly because it comes afterwards... or "at the beginning of dominance phase" a plot or ability kicks in... does this affect your chance of winning dominance? Ah yes, it does...

It would be nice to SEE at what point of time a certain card text is applied. The FAQ is like a reference book for lawyers to me. With more pictures or detailed flow charts it would be like a school book!

ktom said:

Not at all ktom. There are certainly other people here that have a firm grasp of the game and its many nuances, and not to diminish them in anyway, but I would venture to guess most here would consider you the 'resident rules expert'. FFG is great no doubt, but one thing I think you have over them is an almost daily record of reading, answering and clarifying every aspect of this game. Which probably has given you a clear insight of the biggest problem areas for people.