I've read through the posts and this is looking like a game of Pong.

From my perspective here is how I see the argument:

Dut: You can still play Block 3 at your store. No major tournaments were coming up post Gen Con and pre original rotation, so this shouldn't have been a complete waste.

Tainted: The rotation was a surprise. Tainted's group plays competitively. They don't have the money to buy SC4 and SW1 right now. They feel jipped.

My opinion: The argument that the rotation - in the way it is being done - will hurt the players is hyperbolic. The four dot cards that would have been legal in September, would not do you one bit of good at Nats next year. Therefore the rotation would not hurt tournament prep. Also prize support is still being given to block 3. So I don't understand the issue.

This pisses me off more than anything - just because a rotation happens (whether that is in RPG or CCG), the cards rotating out do not instantly disintegrate. You will just have to trust me on this. I currently have a number of Mark of the Beast from SC4 (whole cards not dust) that was re-released as promo cards (and no they did not just reconstitue). Suddenly those cards became standard legal again. Understandably most won't be standard legal. Ever. Which in some cases (BRT) I am really fine with.

So Tainted - if you want to go to L5R - peace be with you and hope your experience is better than the one you have had with UFS.

TaintedDoughnut said:

Its okay if we lose a little bit of net deckers like you.

I cannot believe people are still griping about the rotation. Can you list one single big tournament that you were going to go to in the next two months..?

Also...I'm going to assume you weren't at gen con.. the people made the game fun, the game themselves were almost all stale.

Did I miss something?

Are we not allowed to have new players enjoy the game?

Are we not allowed to have FUN cards and decks in tournament-level play?

Ah, so it IS normal to absolutely dread the competitive scene and be completely discouraged by the incredible amount of unbalance that the old UFS had.

Hmm... perhaps we didn't need this rotation after all!

[/mysarcasmlevelisOVER9000]

I'm going to skip a lot of what has said here and just say the one theme I keep seeing in this post. It is being stated that the early rotation hurts casual players too much because they do not have the financial backing to buy new sets as much as other players and losing the legacy stuff cuts their card pool down. And to this I say:

Tough Crap.

Casual players who sit and enjoy a game more than pro players are great. I envy thoes who can play again without running a statistic calculator in the back of thier head all the time or who dont cary around spreadsheets in there phone with potential deck lists they though of on the subway. CASUAL PLAYERS DO NOT SPEND MONEY ON CARDS. You are not the players supporting the game. You buy a pack every so often, some starters, maybe even the occasional box, and the great news there is that right now if you run out and buy 2 astrid starters or 2 ivy starters and mush them together you have a comprehensive almost tourney caliber deck in front of you.

You know who supports this game? People like me who buy boxes every release, pay tourney fees to sit down and play people he can play for free for cards he already has, who attend gencon just to play UFS every year, and people who buy singles just to test a deck that they may stop playing in a day. Ive got boxes of obsolete cards on my floor right now collecting dust, as set of penny arcades I never got to use, and my copies of Kings games I can't play in standard anymore. People like Omar Chavez support this game by traveling cross country to play and pay convention fees and trade like crazy with everyone he meets. People like Team Foxhound and UFS house and countless others who BUY PRODUCT.

I say to you the level of which your opinion matters on this subject is directly proportionate to the amount you spend on the game, because at the end of the day FFG needs to MAKE MONEY for the game they are producing. It's just like holding stock in a company. All thoes dead cards you now have are your shares in the company and you dislike this move FFG has made. However I have more shares than you and I like the change. At the end of the day the side with the most shares wins.

Protoaddict said:

I HAD TO ROFL AFTER THIS.

To Mr Doughnut.

I have to say that I hate net deckers. They kill a game and force everyone to play hardcore or go home half of the time. They never contribute ideas but they are the first to abuse the idea. They are parasites that suck the blood out of balls a dog.

If you want the best of the best cards they are going to charge you 5 dollars + card. Elite cards are 30 dollar cards. With most of those you can buy a box, buy a starter, or easily trade for them. Cherry picking only saves you money if you plan to build 1 or 2 type of decks if you didn't buy base product. So in the end your buying habit just screwed you.

You talk about your crew plays 2 or more games then man go play the other games if they are cheaper since money is an issue.

TaintedDoughnut said:

You may get more cards per pack of L5R, but saying that makes the game cheaper to buy for is a little misleading. There are 9 different clans, and it is a lot harder to use off-clan people in your deck than it is to splash a different symbol in UFS. Also, each personality has only one clan alignment, vs 3 or more symbols on each UFS card. Point being that there is a higher chance of any particular card in a pack being worthless to you in L5R than in UFS. In addition, it takes more work to turn an L5R starter into a playable deck than it does a UFS starter.

This is not meant to be a slam against L5R. I happen to think it is a great game. But it is not cheaper than UFS.

Protoaddict said:

Well you certainly do win the award for being an arrogant ass but I've been saying that for years.

As for the number of 'shares' The sheer number of 'shares' I personaly own is ALOT more than you think. Only a few cubic feet of solid ufs no big deal there or anything. Not like I haven't invested heavily in the game. HAs it slacked lately due to unfortunate life events yeah. But you get into a near fatal crash that kills off a 35k custom car and tell me your spending the same on everything after it especialy when you had to relearn how to even play UFS after it. So do I particulary feel a little screwed Hell yeah because I busted my balls getting back into the game after a hit and run driver issue..And it wasn't pretty. Ask MT DO I couldn't remeber what I had in play because of short term memory issues. So there you have my reason for a virulent bit of bitter at the rotation. I'll say it again B3 was degenerate yes but just cutting to 4 in OUR AREA hurt the players as most of us buy sets after release because prices go down...not rich here state with an alarming unemployment rate...half our play group has been laid off in the last year.

But it's not just me which your retardation seems to focus on. What about the other people who do buy as much as econonmicaly feasiable to you they are simple customers. And gurrantee there are more customers like that the self righteous pompus ass's like you. I saved for months waiting for Warriors dream and Flames of Fame built a deck from it because I saved and burned my budget for quite awhile on those sets. Built up a killer deck in the process. I wasn't the only one. And our play group travels as stated we go to Hanover to play for fun we also went to regionals up and down the east coast VA to New York. I only missed Nats personaly due to a mechanical issue with the clunker tough choice there for the sensible man UFS or Transmission hmmmmmm you do the math on that one. But if were going to be stuck in b3 land no traveling no playing for fun with other guys no supporting other stores. I make a point to take enough money everytime I travel to another regional to buy something there support gaming as a whole. Hell I offered my house up to people to crash for the MD regional. Don't you dare say we don't support the game here.

UFS is EXPENSIVE..and when you kick everyone to ZERO there going to shrug and walk away unless you do something. Now you of the self important 'big people' may not care that your diminishing an entire region that's fine. And it's abundantly clear people like you have no interest in growing and maintaing the game just your illusionary self importance so you can stroke your own ego.

I should have known honestly coming to the forums looking for ideas and thoughts on ways to keep a play group growing and competitive was a bad idea there is no usefull information to be gained here just idiots like Proto stroking their ego or maybe something else.

And yes L5r is cheaper despite the 9 clan thing An entire play group at another local store built killer stuff with the free imperial gift a few boosters and a starter.

Oh wait AEG did that killer promotion thing to help their game it is making a killing seeing it sprout players right and left because of a FREE legal and awesome promo set.....I see UFS dieing everywhere because of an early rotation lack of support for the players....sooooo Really if FFG wants to keep it running it's step up or step out of MD.

Say it again I like UFS I've worked **** hard at playing UFS at a high level but their desicions made it impossible to play that high level for all of us at our location and we would like to but were not going to simply devote our grocery budgets to a rapid turn around. Like UFS but food keeps me alive

*takes deep breathe and....SIGH*

This **** is getting way out of hand. What the hell are you asshats doing? The question may have been asked the wrong way, but ultimately it was your decisions to answer upon the question of a possible redemption program. Regardless these flames are more than enough to convince me that everyone here has some issues they need to work out in there heads. Tainted...stay on track. Some of your ******* comments are only sparking more flames. Ask only about the redmeption and you will get more answers to your original post. Proto and darklogos, your comment on net deckers is plain god **** stupidity. Whether you like it or not, everyone and I repeat EVERYONE who buys a pack of UFS or the whole mother load supports this game. Someone with you intellect should know when there being baited. You may be great at this game but **** you ******* suck when it comes to becoming a tool for someone to use. If a new gamer was looking into UFS and decided to come to this *********** of a forum, all of your responses that beat one another down will show them that the community sucks. With that said I think that this great community of UFS is now the sorry ass community of every other CCG out there. On more than one occasion I have stated that some threads go off the track. There is really nothing of use for anyone looking for an in depth conversation that produces thought provoking ideas that a community as a whole to use. At this moment and maybe before that this thread was doomed for failure. My intetntion and I do belive dut's as well was to put some educated thought and reasoning. All you titty babies did was **** on it and have a battle of egos.

We are all entitled to our opinions. Dictating ones opinion over anothers becomes a battle of empty wills and false dominance in a community that does not need such negative actions. This thread is over and needs to be locked. There is nothing to gain from a protracted war.

KawaiiMistress said:

This. The community makes this game plain and simple.

@TaintedDoughnut- I don't see how you are having so much trouble acquiring the new stuff. Decks are very focused on character support now rather than symbol support. I just recently had to completely start over in this game and I am having little to no trouble acquiring cards to round out what I believe to be competitive decks.

Fine if you dont think my post was fair so be it, though i never said anything about netdecking. Let me put it in more inarguable language.

Redemption costs a lot of money. FFG is not going to spend it, regardless of how much potential it has to make them more because it would be easier to can the game entirley and put money towards something else. If you like that statement or not it is the finincal truth of the matter.

Also the fact that you had an accident in your custom car and all that, while I'm sorry to hear that and glad you are ok as one human being to another, it does not factor into FFGs descisions. I lost a family memeber recently enough and have been playing alot of money latley for bills to get everything back to normal. I work a hetic job that keeps me up crazy hours and my girlfriend is mildly delusional. All that being said it does not affect my opinion of how FFG runs its buisness now will it affect thier opinion on how to run shop.

At the end of the day FFG is not here to be our friend. They are here to make a profit off their game and will be our friend if they can

And my point friendly companys make more money. Every company that puts sheer profit over customer fails. Point encase look at GW right now constantly raising prices and turning their stores into a ghost town. Support the player or die. Wizkids did the same thing didn't support the players it died. Really it's in the best interest to show a little love alittle appreciation keep the cash flowing regularly than push for a one time bump that might just burn you out.

As a consumer I bought 3 hyundai's because well I was a repeat customer so they kept offering better prices to me to keep buying. Simply put everyone that becomes a regular likes a little something once in awhile to know buisness is appreciated. Frankly When has UFS done that for us..uhhhh uhhhhhh never?

THe history of gaming companys speaks for it's self on this one those that pull things like this have almost always tanked the game or come so damned close it's flat out scary. Especially when zero is done for the players they burn. Goes back to that word of mouth thing.

TaintedDoughnut said:

UFS gives prize support for free tournaments. That's pretty darn good.

While I am also annoyed at the early rotation / reset, I don't expect them to give away free stuff to make up for the loss of time those cards are tournament legal. The expense of doing so would be significant, not to mention a logistical nightmare. For a company to do that at a time when the whole reason for the rotation was a perceived gamewide problem would be very unwise.

kraazivaan said:

Why should FFG give anything back for thoes cards? They are still playable in legacy or whatever custom formats players chose to play. Thoes events still recieve prize support just like any other games. The ONLY thing thoes cards arent good for anymore are FFG offical scantioned events, and even that isnt 100% written in stone because they may have special format tourneys.

Real life example: Left 4 dead. There is a lot of backlash against them for releasing L4D and then i think in about a year jumping right to L4D 2. Are people going to get a free copy of l4d2 if they trade in thier copy of one? No because the game is still playable. It may no longer be the standard but its playable. Does Apple give everyone a new Ipod every seemingly 4 months when they release a new one? No.

So at the end of the day you can say you want redemption all you want but its just not going to happen at the level you want it too. The more logical and realistic possibility is reprints of older cards so your stack of now older cards are playable once again.

Protoaddict said:

Did you mean to reply to my post, or a different one? I was pointing out why redemption was a bad idea, and should not / will not happen. if you also think it is a bad idea, I think we are in agreement.

Yea your post was more of a QFT

Additionally some stuff about the potential "redemption" and such:

• FFG is slitting their own throats on sales for Flames of Fame and Warriors Destiny, and similar product that the still have an ample supply of in their warehouse. Just like you're saying "I have a bunch of dead cards." How many people are going to go out and buy that same product that you're calling dead.
• FFG is trying to be a friendly company. They are trying to make the environment as enjoyable and accessible as possible. They want you to have more players. For the next six months, it's easier for new players to jump into 5 star only, then it is to try and catch up on 4+5 star environment. Additionally they have been getting significant feedback from the players who are dissatisfied with the current environment, and were planning on quitting after worlds because of how dissatisfied they were with the thought of another 6 months. When you are complaining about "your lost time", and other players made similar comments right after the rotation was announced, and it was relayed to Steve. Steve's comments were "How will these players feel if the game is dead in six months? What will their cards be worth in six months if the game is dead?" He went onto say "If we don't do this rotation, I really don't think the game will last another six months in its current shape."
• FFG tried giving away free product. ::Points at the 3rd Anniversary promotion:: They gave away boatloads upon boatloads of product. It didn't translate into additional sales for set 12. Asking them to now give away even more current product seems a little much.
• At the end of the day while people hate the "play legacy" statement - you can still use your cards in legacy. You can still book your tournaments to be 4&5 star only. The only events that are affected are the Store & City Championships. 2 events in the next six - eight months, that you can plan for.

Anyway... best of luck, hope that you can still enjoy UFS with all of the cards that you own.

For September, my shop is running the following events:

Sept 1 - 4 Star cards only.
Sept 8 - 5 Star cards only - Tekken Legal
Sept 15 - 5 Star cards only - Tekken Legal
September 22 - Legacy No Block cards
September 29 - Legacy 6x10 (10x 1 checks, 10x 2 checks, etc etc)

Antigoth said:

You know, something that leaves a sour taste in my mouth is that... well, the game has been like that for a long time. It's not a new development that gray = win and orange = loss. While I welcome the switch, I can't help but ask "Why didn't they know this already?"

We've still been operating under the old regime of designers (NOT just Dave. there were others in the old company working / influencing design). Domination Cutting Edge was NOT made by FFG, (nor soley Mr. Freeman).

Finally some answers. But before that Proto, I am sorry for throwing you into the net decking thing. My bad. Still, you were baited. Don't take offense but that is the strategy being implemented. Enough with this nonsense as it is derailing the thread. Antigoth props on making some points that further elaborate the point as to why a redemption program is not feasible for the gamers. Seriously I want this game to survive and thrive. It has the right to. Yet redemption is going to hurt more so than help. From an business stand point, doing so crushes the game and voids its existence. A risk that is not needed when all you have to do is clear your head, look at the new material, buy two starter decks and roll like a pimp.

As I am one of the Maryland Players let me point out something...this game is not going to die out. Sure our playgroup may be affected at the start but when I point out to everyone what they can do with 2 starter boxes on Saturday...I think thay will see the point. Ivy here I come. Lastly, while I may not play every single weekend...hell been gone for three months of UFS weekend play...I still manage to get games in with other people and through other means. So don't count me out Tainted because I am aware of things belive it or not. (Thanks Bob, Norb, Shane, and Chubb.)

Well If you think you can keep it going with you Bob and Norb more power to you. BUt the distinct lack of variety in characters and hella lack in actual symbol playability right now you know thats not gonna be an easy sell with our group. And makes the game alot less fun for me at least. If I want to see a lack of variety and blandness I can go eat my mothers cooking..and thats free might however often taste like eating a UFS card actually they might taste better.

But it seems the common view is that FFG should do nothing to support the players I will still have to strongly disagree. But such is life I suppose Still think a show of appreciation after something like that goes a long way. But if UFS is to mostly die off in the area thats just whats gonna happen and nothing I can really do to stop it can't afford to help everyone stay in the game especially when there is a vast distrust in the company. Bad after tastes from other games and the ultimate outcome of them and the circumstances of them being almost identical to this one. And if a much larger game can die because of a similar thing it can do it to a small one.

Hard to have faith in something and be willing to show desire to buy when it's going to take to long to catch up now especially with the company and community unwilling to do anything but show a door to someone looking for a little help.

Now that's getting ridiculous.

The common view is that FFG should do nothing to support the players => Are they letting the game die? Have they stopped printing cards because "Block 3 is not balanced or fun to play any more"? NO. They are doing their best. For Christ's sake, they've even released a whole new set of cards from a new licence (meaning they've had to PAY to get that licence in) in the new Block. All tournaments are supported by the company (prize support whatever block is used in the tournament).

Distinct lack of variety in characters and lack in actual symbol playability =>9 characters from Shadowar, 9 from Soul Calibur 4, and I think 6 shown for Tekken = 22 character cards. Plus the champion cards for those who can get them. Most of which are quite playable in miniblock. I'm not a very good player but, over the top of my head, I get ideas for decks in All, Earth, Life, Fire, Chaos, Void and Death. That's 7, about half the symbols, right? Does that show a "distinct lack in actual symbol playability"?

Look, you've gone through this for 5 pages. You've given good arguments, been answered with good arguments as well (by the way, dut, you get all my respect for constructing your posts and making the whole schmilblick go forward (pardon my french)), and are going on and on. This as gone from constructed criticism to mere trolling. Get a grip, man!

YOU CAN STILL PLAY YOUR CARDS!!!

And to all other users, sorry about this rant but I get the idea this topic has gone on for long enough.

You're not asking for help. You're demanding a company to take your cards (hard enough as it is) and give you new cards in exchange (which costs them more money).

Asking for help and demanding it because you think you're entitled to it are two different things.

Example: my scout, when asked about the prerelease and after answering my question, starts rambling about how mad our store owner is. I humor him and ask him why. He says "because she just bought the Fight Night kits and the entire product is now useless."

I simply walked away and replied, "You know, that support is as useless as you want it to be."

As the scout, he can choose to run only B3/B4 tournaments and splash the current standards. So literally, the cards you oh so desperately want exchanged are only as useless as your scout wants them to be. So go complain to your scout, because by staying here and bitching you're not getting a response from anyone that will satisfy you.

Respectfuly at MT_DO.

When have neck deckers ever contritbuted to a playing community? They don't. Look at our own deck building forums and you will see mostly the same cycle of people and a new player or 2. Heck people don't even throw out off the wall combo ideas in the deck building forum at all. Those who copy have no motivation or intention to invotate the play sphere. I haven't seen neck deckers contribute in not one forum I've been in. They will comment and critique but not create.

Thing is by calling us to stop is an authoritative position just like our reactions. There is no call for action that is not authoritative. I'm not saying that to smack talk but just making a point. If someone came in and looked at this community it is easy to tell that it is small. It next easy to tell that it has people who act like they are on the interwebs. Every forum is like that if it is not heavy modded.

darklogos said:

I'm going to be honest - I'm a filthy Net Decker. When I saw one of the Atlanta Guys run a Ring-Out Yoshimitsu a couple of years ago, and he punted me like a Red Headed Stepchild at the Can Nats, I copied that deck like there was no tomorrow.

When Matt Kohls infilitrating was running around, I net decked that thing card for card.

Now you say "What has any net decker done for sharing tech."

http://www.teamcanadaonline.net/index.php?page=215

^^^ Can Nats 2009 top 8 deck lists.

http://www.teamcanadaonline.net/index.php?page=211

^^^ All your base Loop - My own tech that I freely posted, and I am very happy to see people net deck it at regionals, and the team worlds among other events.

Eventually I'm going to post the Team worlds version of AYB, as well as the Sagat that I ran at worlds (Which apparently was significantly different then a number of the other Sagat builds that were running around.)

There NEEDS to be net decking. There NEEDS to be that sharing. One of the big problems that we have is you've got groups like UFS house that deck build and play endless numbers of games against one another. That hivemind allows their decks to evolve in secret, and then because outside of the Canadian National events that I've been to, there is no enforced posting of top cut decks.

Therefore the "innovative" decks get to run around roughly in secret, and players are left in the dark.

<I realize I'm already on the unpopular side of the net decking discussion. I don't think I'm going to make any friends from the following statement>

As a whole I don't see the majority of the UFS community as that terribly innovative, and that willing to evolve.

There are so many unexplored combos and ideas. So many players are focused on "I want to play my favourite character" or "I only like to play symbol X".
That rather then explore other symbols, rather then explore other cards, when their favourite idea doesn't work, they complain and request for a card to be banned.

Net Deckers take solid ideas, and quite often can refine them. Taking a great deck and changing 5 or 6 cards can make a phenominal difference.

Net Decking drives an evolution. Once players knew how to stop Kohl's Infiltrating Deck, while it was still good, it wasn't unstoppable. Matt chose to abandon the deck because of the change in the meta. It drove him to go onto to something else, and evolve new tech that would be successful for him.

Many players won't share their decks because they "don't want the tech to get out."

At the same time, if a deck is truly good, it can withstand its contents and how it works being known.

Additionally if a player is net decking - it means that they're playing the game.
I would rather someone net deck and play the game, rather then quit and not play because they don't have "an original idea."

Additionally I've seen players accused of Net Decking because they took an obvious combo and built a deck around it. Obvious combo is obvious, it doesn't mean the person is a net decker.

Gah... I've got to get back to work. If this seems a bit disjointed, I'll ask your forgiveness as I've been writing it as time permits between distractions at work.

The way I see it, card games are a lot like arcade machines.

When you put money into an arcade machine, you don't expect it to come back to you after you've finished playing the game, do you?

So why should it be expected to redeem what was lost monetarily from this?

It was a little sudden, but if you watch the video of the announcement, you'll see everyone there applauding the decision