So losing the minority of players who like to have fun with the game? You do realize those players are a games best seller right? The people having fun win or lose casual playing not cut throat for the kill are what catches more eyes than the intense hardcore fanatics. That atmosphere is what is going to draw interest. So you cut them out and you cutting down on marketability and in essence free advertising.

And another buisness prospect in some but not all cases people will also be disuaded from purchasing other lines from FFG after this. Americans in particular can be very very bitter people. What incentive do I have to want to purchase FFG product in general knowing at any time they have a record for rapidly reducing support and altering course midstream no official warning and without offering a compromise(no the prize support is not a compromise because our prize support has been horrible and non-existant at times despite them "fixing" the system how many times? Really seen better fixes done by blind carpenters.) And in some circles FFG already has a name that is less than savory....so avoiding adding to that is not always a bad move at all.

It's bad buisness that again kills games. How can I ever try to sell someone on the idea of UFS when I have a 20 lbs box of cards that overnight went away well before they were suppose to. Answer I can't because I can't bring myself to tell someone to risk spending the money on a game that the company and designers change without offering any sort of compensation to the people that support it for screwing them over. In fact I will feel inclined to DISSUADE anyone from touching it.

Even if the retirement of old cards makes the game better it's still not worth booting people out of the game without offering something to try and keep them. Here is why and it's a biggy

Games are spread by WORD OF MOUTH not advertising it's the main marketing in the gaming industry. I can't think of a game I ever started playing because of an add. Maybe shiney packaging on a shelf but never an add. So your going to boot players out piss them off irritate your retailers? Not the best recipe for adding players.

Every person in our playgroup started because of a friend telling them or by someone stoping by and us the players singing praise right on the spot. Now reverse that to people warning you to steer clear of the game.....and thats just not gonna work as well on this whole get new players make money thing.

Even if a game looks cool if people hear that the company pooch screwed supporting it and all without a doubt that will keep people out of the game. So is it really bad buisness to try and do something nice for the people your hurting. Not in the long run at all because now they are happy and don't speak ill of you in a word of mouth industry. And happy retailers are more likely to recomend and push your product.

dutpotd said:

Only giving more value to Legacy and and some discounts will make sure that these sets clear out.

Again @ Tainted:

I don't deny you your opinion on this. But you said, word of mouth sells the game. Do you know how hard it is to manage 'word of mouth'? Especially in a dwindling economy? You can't. The best you can do is satisfy the majority of people, because the majority of mouths is better than the minority.

No one is denying rotation the 'drastic' step that it was, but it was a decision made supported by facts, numbers, and a desire to make the game better.

I guess what you are asking for is 'something nice for the people your hurting' and I'm not FFG. In an ideal world everything would be solved with compromise, and even after that the side that compromised 'x' would receive a new 'y' instead and vice versa - everyone would be happy! FFG has already had to make cuts to this game, number of sets, shinies, etc. to ask for more now just isn't the time or place. But if you and your retailer still feel it is, then a pointed letter to them would serve you more justice than spewing an opinion on the forum, one that isn't supported by the majority of players...

They have offered stuff to everyone for staying around = a better game. This is what I am trying to tell you, yes there was a cost for it, but the majority of players are 'ok' with that cost. If you are not, all someone like me asks is that you understand the decision, know that it didn't mean to target you, and if you truly aren't satisfied with the better game in exchange for a few months lost with bad tasting cards, then it is your decision to leave or stay.

Your friends and fellow game players only ask that you do so with the respect you have for them, those that are willing to pay the cost for the better game (that would be the unselfish thing to do and I'm sure you agree).

- dut

dutpotd said:

valid question is valid if not silly. I had this discussion at length with a friend of mine last friday(after I got into an argument about this game with another). Neither of us are really convinced that the cards are at fault. The cards were annoying but if you were able to think and change you stragety against them they were no longer a problem. The problem is that there is no thought in the game. I come from an extensive CCG background and have played most if not all ccgs and this one to be has always been kinda blah(even if we took the control aspect out of it it was still kinda blah) . I played it because the majority of my friends did.

edit: I am not saying that the move was bad. As it needed to be done, numbers don't lie. I just don't think the things that people are saying causing the problem was the problem. only time will tell if they were and weren't. I would love to see this game grow and become better. however it is more than the cards that needs to be changed.

kiit said:

i told you id nut punch you if you stole that from me, your lucky im not working tonight

kimano said:

Sorry, I thought you were posting a rhetorical. But my answer is the same, if players don't like the game, which is what the designers will design it to be, then the game will fail, that much is assured.

As far as the rest of your post goes - yes, I agree you could play 'around' almost anything. And if you read my posts, here and there, you will see I didn't have a problem with block 3 (post the banning of Chun-li, and really didn't hate it before, the other bannings were just icing on a sweetening cake).

"The problem is that there is no thought in the game" What does this statement mean? There is a depth to this game that other CCGs can't even touch, difficulty, control checks, abilities and text galore, handsizes, character choices, there is an immense amount of thought that goes into the game of UFS I play. So please elaborate why you think there is no thought, and perhaps in a new topic, granted this one is about FFG redeeming players that wanted to maintain value within their block 3 cards (also a very important topic).

dutpotd said:

dutpotd said:

You do know that one negative opinion expressed in a sale usualy in the human mind out weighs ten compliments right? People hear bad more than good. And as it's been stated you in the 'majority' have drasticly more voictrous and ignorant of any other voice so maybe for once listen to people that aren't 'proplayers' Maybe actually help try to keep everyone playing rather than telling anyone different to go straight to hell do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars.

And do you speak for everyone were you elected because you seem to think your the voice of everyone? I said I am speaking localy but given the law of averages pretty sure there are quite a few more people sitting in our shoes. Just most avoid the forums because people like you who think they speak for everyone and are 'ok' with repressing any different opinion.

As for the gamers I respect those that deserve it but I will not respect a company or product that does not deserve it. And right now UFS and FFG do not deserve respect not until they make an attempt. And no again the rotation is not the attempt. No prize support is not an attempt because well worst event support I have ever experienced. Prize support is at best a stick minus the carrot

So perhaps for a momemnt stop trying to show the door to the people wanting to stay and maybe do a little more to help? Say it again I like UFS want to play but the current choices made in running the game have shaken alot of faith and confidence and instilled some hostile feelings in the majority of a play group and sure there are others out there. Maybe a little COMMUNITY pressure to get them to ease it. Rather than a heres the door go to hell mentality....might help the game grow to...GASP..word of mouth word of mouth

Sorry about the double quote apparently I didn't catch it that I had double clicked

DvON said:

I assumed that it was one of those things that you wanted me to say because your too lazy to do it yourself.

TaintedDoughnut said:

It happens, when you go through other repsonses. And I get everything you are saying, like I said I respect your opinion, I don't even disagree with it, I just want your opinion to stand while understanding why you won't find a lot of support for it on the forums.

Obviously pleasing everyone is best, and yes, negative can ring true more than positive. I don't think the early rotation is truly positive, morso the lesser of two evils, and hence a very hard decision to make and one that was made with the hopes that you and those like you would strive to understand and live with it the best you can.

Obviously I don't speak for everyone, that is just silly talk, if I came across like that I apologize, it is a fallacy for you to ignore. I am merely summing up what I feel are the majority of replies to your well routed complaint (yes it is very valid) and trying to explain to you in those terms. Again apologies if it wasn't obvious that this was my intent, and to those people that don't come to the forums because of people like me, people that are probably (well not all) misunderstood in their generalizations.

And I'm not trying to show you the door, I am saying if you choose the door then please do so with a) understanding for why others make the different choice, and b) with respect for those that do. The latter meaning that leaving and then bad mouthing the Company (which I can see is probably not new, there are some apparent misgivings you have for the prize support you have(n't) received in the past), does not do justice to those that made the different choice, those that are your friends and probably deserve your respect as you do theirs.

In any case, assuming your position is correct, MT. DO started it and everyone ignored it. I guess the question is, what type of concession for you and your retailer would smooth the edges of this untimely block transition? Curious.

- dut

A retailers job is to make money selling product. If product is overnight obsolete and useless no sell no profit. Best way to do it is to offer to take back unused product as a credit towards future purchase. Or offer a discount based on product FFG essentialy voided.

As said to Mt Do earlier today 50$ in good will from FFG towards the players can than generate in a year over 1k a year in sales. Really it wouldn't cost them much when you look at it that way. Because keeping people playing generates more money than it will cost if you look at more than an immediate cost. It's like any promotion you promote to generate/keep sales. I'd be willing to trade old cards for new I have more than enough b3 I use to give out b3 to new players until the economy bit me.

Even simple things like mail in offers of buy X to get Y where y is not an outdated kit or a single character. Could even offer to trade in old prematurely rotated decks for starters. So many options that don't cost that much money. Spending 10 bucks to keep a player will turn that 10$ into 100$ more generaly within a year at our locals. Say our average spender is around 100-1k a year on it.

As for not speaking ill of the game. Sorry thats a no can do when they have so many options if they chose to ignore them or fail to make an effort. Well....yeah sorry no effort no recomendation. Afterall if someone kicks you in the balls and runs away do you go around telling everyone they are a great guy..or that **** that kicked you

Clarrification on those numbers that 1k is one player who buys many a box at a time 8 total at last release. But most might spend 100-200 a year....brain fart. but still multiply that by 5-6 looking at about a grand in sales for alot less in promotion.

First and foremost thanks dut, we were seriously getting off of track here. Your efforts to put this back on track is quite admirable. Secondly, Tainted, chill. You made your point and there is no need for your last comment on your last post. A redemption program for the retailers is the most important thing to do. In fact it needs to be made mandatory. These games are the life blood of any hobby retail store. Giving credit would be one way of handling this. I sure as hell don't wish to see any jaded store owners. If for any reason they give bad word of mouth, than how the hell am I going to be able to play? As for the players...no redemption program. I stated my reasons on my first post. However Tainted you did raise an interesting option and one that could get more people into the game just because it sounds like a great promo. If any gamers were to buy a starter set of Shadowar or Soul Calibur 4, they would get two free boosters with it. That could definately push sales for FFG.

What do you guys think about that?

Might not be the most plesant comment I made in the final bit but it's true. When something cheats ya and they have ways to fix it and they don't your not gonna speak highly of them. And I know anything would take time to impliment not sayin I'm gonna run around the store bashing FFG but if 3-4 months down the road all we get is the Middle finger over this whole thing still...I think It's completely fair to tell people you got cheated. If the truth hurts it's not your fault.

If you buy a car and it breaks after a year are you going to tell people to buy it hell no going to tell them to avoid it

The big problem here is determining what FFG essentially voided vs. what the retailer bought in error, mis-judging demand. And in a past post I stated that with few tournaments, and most players buying the new stuff all the time, that most block 3 stock was already obsolete, everyone was buying block 4. I'm sure this factored into FFG's decision to rotate, namely they hadn't sold boxes of block 3 for a while - if it was selling like hotcakes then why in the world would they have rotated losing their own money???

If you disagree with this, show me sales of this block 3 only product for the month of July and then the sale of it for the month of September (we haven't even seen the impact you are expecting, if you went to FFG before data became available... It would be a weaker argument).

It is all nice and good to say spending $100 here will net you $900 later. And sometimes it does. But with a game on shaky grounds, who are we to ask FFG to take this risk? Why can't we, as educated gamers, understand the economics of CCGs, rather undertand that if we understood them we'd be selling our own CCG right now?

It is really easy for us to look at FFG and go - "you have so many options and aren't acting on any of them". It is another thing entirely for us to mind our own business and realize that this is equally what FFG is doing, and the best way that they can.

I'd actually be really interested to see what retailers actually figure their net gain/loss is after the month of Ocotober or so.

= sales of block 4 stuff (argument more is bought becuase it is the 'legal' and it is the 'better fun game now" = more players = more purchases) - lost sales on stale block 3 stuff that might not have sold anwyways.

Once you tally those figures , and honestly, come back to the community and say FFG should redeem for how they hurt retailers, then they would justly provide a redemption for the loss... I'm in the boat that it will be a gain, and I think that is what FFG calculated before making the decision to rotate.

Granted, there are two unknowns in this equation, what would have sold of block 4 if rotation didn't happen, and what would have sold of block 3 if rotation wouldn't have happened. So set those conservatively.

Other than that, I really think it is up to retailers to voice their own issues and in private with a marketing/sales members from FFG. If communications break down between these two entities we as players are hurt, but sadly we can't 'really' influence them anymore than we can our retailers and FFG, which in my mind is passive at best.

- dut

Forgot the equation part of players lost seem to skip that number entirely

There is a thought that is still not in peoples heads of Rotation early often = a negative in total players...were at a total negative no positive no one has jumped in since the announcement in fact it's like the rats on a sinking ship...fleeing ..which might be the smart move might not but really right now it just seems a head in sand policy is preferable to "majority" of an ill will or crushed toes that this made.

That is the WORST WORST WORST WORST way to go because dissent and that negative feelings just gets worse because now the people that would like to play but are told to go away get even angrier and more hateful thats essentialy in a nutshell what your adovcating by saying this is best thing since sliced bread in all regards and is the ultimate desicion to shaft the players. If thats the path the MAJORITY of the UFS community wants to go. Well maybe the game deserves to die because your essentialy saying only the elite can play and everyone else isn't worthy.

If thats the view of the Majority which is kind of what your saying than the game is doomed to fail not by them but by the players because your intent on repressing any one who might want to help little guy out. Can fit alot more little fish in a pond than big fish.

TaintedDoughnut said:

This is the thing. The vast majority of response is that there are more players wanting to play now that block 3 is behind them... I guess you can start by tallying palygroup size July to September/October and then come back to me with results. Again, I think FFG thought of this and although there might be 'different'/'new' faces and some old ones lost, that the numbers are positive.

I can attest our playgroup has grown post rotation announcement, why? New players can play and don't need to invest in expensive janky block 3 cards. why? the new format is agressive and has attracted new players becuase 'positive word of mouth about the New nautre of the game' has brought them to the game. We have easily gone from 6+ competitive to 12+ competitive in a breath.

So, just because we see a select few players lost (or rather you do), let's not make this an individual issue, this is about everyone or it is about no one.

Also keep in mind, if these players, are already mad with (??? prize support among other things) then they would leave anyways, this rotation thing is just an excuse for the people that were already leaving, and maybe an all too convenient one at that.

- dut

edit: with the attitude you are conveying, I'm not surprised your playgroup has dwindled, it is a self fulfilling prophecy when the leaders of a group give up on the cause. In other words, in other playgroups where players receive the rotation positively, the opposite to what you are experiencing is happening.

TaintedDoughnut said:

I can't really reply to this becuase I don't think it is appropriate. All of my last posts have validated that rotation has hurt some = a negative in total players in select areas, and likely based on how they choose to perceive rotation.

The rest about elitist junk is just plain wrong. An elite necessitates a minority, and if this decision benefited few and hurt many then FFG wouldn't have made the decision in the first place. Unless you are straight up questioning the validity of the decision, and if you are then you aren't really just petitioning for redemption... now are you?

- dut

Mt_Do said:

I 100% agree with this if a redemption (lost sales) is actually what is needed. But I think that FFG is seeing this as a way to increase sales for themselves, hence retailers will probably benefit in the mid/long term, especially in the cases where playgroups grow immediately.

A case by case redemption program I am also in agreement with (obviously there are some playgroups that are taking the rotation the wrong way) and would love to help as much from the community standpoint as is possible to ensure the growth of the game, i.e. the health of the retail shops, is preserved - everywhere.

You will note, that this is the prime reason I reply to TaintedDonought, becuase it is my explicit goal for him to understand the other views and experiences out there, learn from them, possibly benefit from them, and at the end of the day still enjoy the game, earn some respect for the Company, and generally have a good time.

- dut

It might be different I've always said speaking for the location. And yes rotation is sen negatively here because poor starving college kids don't have the money to buy all the new Janky attacks needed to play all of the sudden in block 4 only and with people prematurely kicked out and limited means there is absolutely no way to now actually amass anything close to a compettive deck what so ever.

Thats the part where FFG needs to step in offering some kind of cut for cutting the previous cards. If I would have known Warriors Dream And Flames of Fame were gonna be that short lived I wouldn't have gone out of my way to track down my 4 Sens and everything else certainly would have waited for the block 5. Since alot of us don't have the means we wait for prices on new sets to go down awhile..now the trade market sure as hell won't since it's the only thing playable so chance of getting back to competitive for over a year is ZERO. So the rotation by default killed the most active community in maryland down to a few die hards.

Players all droped when their cards were voided went on to bigger better things like War Machine and L5R products that have been stable. Now in place of Saturday UFS we have Saturday Warmachine games same time same people. All people who LIKE the game just don't have the $$$$ to play since we take a slow by approach. And hey it worked for me this past regionals season never dipping below 10th and our one guy almost top 8ing twice in his first to big events. Unforunantely the surprise sex style rotation hurts the slow build player so bad it is a total boot from UFS

It's my intent to try and actually save the community localy but only feedback I get is. To bad shouldn't happen you deserve to not play? FFG did the best thing and shouldn't do anything else? Is that really the path to take? Or should maybe the company and the community have some ideas of ways to not foster ill will and let people stay at the level they were before getting hit with an illegal block in the back(preseason demands a football refrence)

Ok. So now you are saying that you and many others in your group have recently got the glitter cards of block 3 ready and can't use them anymore? Well, many already said a) you still can, you control what is legal in your meta, and b) there are no tournaments that would have been block 3 anyways before rotation so nothing has changed.

I know that most of our playgroup, even the new players that have started after rotation, are managing to get the cards they need and easily. Part of that is that we share. Namely, at home you can proxy away, and honestly - many can attest to this - if you are at a competitive tourney and need to fill the said proxy, me (and others like me) could probably hook you up without second thought.

This is the thing, cards weren't voided. You can and should still play block 3 if that is what your players have.

The other thing is, they weren't voided for competitions becuase there wer enone scheduled block 3... (I sound like a broken record here).

IN OTHER WORDS, your players and you would have had to shelled out for block 4 stuff anyway or quit competitively when rotation happened.

The community is hard pressed to understand how you have been pushed down a level when all that has happened is the off season came early (and for everyone). i.e. new season start, we are all on the same field.

Anyone who leaves simply becuase of forced rotation, noting it as a mark of instability, really doesn't understand the decision to rotate. If anything the decision to rotate is a mark of stability, it is the mark of a decision to better sales, better player numbers, and better the experience for everyone - hence making things more stable. I'm pretty sure that L5R, if they experienced severe distate with their current format, coupled with the indications that their next format would offer better, would equally force rotation. It would just make sense, for the stability of the game.

- dut

And the point of playing block 3 is....... Wait none to built a deck still going to come up with all the shineys and everything needed to be effective. And were not having the money to drop on sets go out and buy little at a time with the set rotation coming around early and suddenly kicked out to 4 star no time to adjust and slowly buy up the new set thats a death sentence.

I feel like no one seems to understand we tend to buy things a bit later for monetary reasons. I'm not loaded I can't buy all of a set instantly it takes me months to aquire what I need. Which is right now wait ...the game since nothing I have is legal anymore and with the rotation coming around early prices sure ain't droping and availbilty on cards worth a **** ain't going up. So how is one without alot of money suppose to play the game build a deck be competitive without some way to trade in a little of the stuff that got booted early. Simply put YOUR NOT GOING TO. I've been looking without going out and spending around 500$ no way going to build up to what I was playing. And just not cool at all.

I'm not saying FFG should drop cards on us but anything to help get a little more bang ofr the buck as a show of good faith keep some players and a region more active. Killing a play group entirely which is a good possibility kills ALL sales and most hope of sales in that area. Might just be me but makes sense to try and be nice to players that have been playing since B1 steadily and faithfully.

What were left with is an entire playgroup that essentially won't be able to play for around a year because of this. Now I get the point of some groups gaining players but even some of the ideas for redemptions would help them. Turn in like X old Promos get Y new ones things like that help returning players and ones given the short end of the stick.

We as a group also like to travel and play going around different places to..can't do that anymore since every store will be playing a different style probably all block 4 elsewhere within a decent driving distance. So again playing block 3 is kinda like a MEH option like putting a kiddie band aid on a gunshot wound cute...but woefully ineffective.

Rotation kills a playgroup and a region since there isn't anywhere close running UFS closest other place is Hanover.

It's a group of players that really do like UFS but rotation kills the ability to get cards since the market value on everything skyrocketed over night making it impossible to get a competitive deck. And essentialy confining people to one location killing competition in a game thats suppose to be competitive. So looking at all that alittle company redemption program get new cards to players a might bit better or just drop a state maybe more players around the world?

I in no way expect osme fountain of shineys but a little sale option more bang for the buck be nice even. Some kind of cool turn in old for new be the best option for keeping players around here but that idea has gotten hit with the hate hammer.

If every action has a consequence this would be it for early rotation. Dry up the market and ability to get cards to players..disillusions the players..need to maintain players arises...so it's at the point of either maintain current players or watch area shrivel and go away? As much as people like the game not going to keep playing a game that essenitialy burned them bad.

I'm still really finding it hard to grasp how rotation now vs. a few months later impacts you and your playgroup so heavily, granted there were no more block 3 tournaments scheduled anyways... Your games now, if you continued to play block 3 through September and on, would be giving you just as much training (nil) for the next competition.

If at every rotation players could trade old for new, all of the players would be better off financially, but this isn't the point of a card game, at least not for the sellers point of view and also not for the collector, which I gather you are not. The point is to have us players pay for new design, new cards, and new sets.

Also, if you group has truly not invested in block 4 stuff as of yet, you wouldn't be playing the same as everyone else anyways. The last few months, and worlds especially, has seen more and more of the block 4 cards used in block 3 tourney decks.

I guess, what I am getting at is that you are looking at the rotation as having a big impact on you and from my point of view it really hasn't. All it says is, go buy the new cards that you would have anyways. If anything, if you are telling me you wouldn't have bought the new cards until later, you should take a brief hiatus from the game and then play again when you had intended to buy the cards anyways.

On the other hand, I feel for a playgroup that claims to have nothing. There must be playsets of commons/uncommons flying around. And likely even some rares.

I'm also confused with how your players that can't pay for the new sets can easily jump to other games that you have named, other games that have significant start-up costs anyways.

I'm just one big ball of confusion, you've jumped from wanting to help the retailers to explaining how you have yet to buy any new block from the retailers, and back again. I'm done.

If you manage to come up with some reasonable stats that indicate the average reatiler loses boatloads of money becuase of the rotation than I would support them redeeming 'some' old supply for new or whatever.

If you come up with a list of cards you need from the new block that other playgroups that have bought lots of new stuff, and way back in May when it came out, then post said list in the trade forums and I'll trade you what I can, and for your block 3 stuff that you claim is now voided.

In any case, I'm done with this thread. Thank you for trying your best to explain your situation, and I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense to me when taken in altogether.

- dut

One L5R is roughly half the cost to play since same size booster more Cards per pack..that makes a HUGE difference when you spend same money get more and you can get set rares in the starters to. Add all that togther and well makes it MUCH MUCH cheaper.

Warmachine is a game we have always had just now getting to since the UFS thing happened. We are GAMERS in the truest form RPG TT strat card all of it. Most of us play at least 2 games

As for our quality of play well admitedly were a bit of copycats we wait a bit see whats hot than put our own twist on it usually not gonna lie we do some copying of decks and usualy by the time we see whats hot most anyone that needs those cards has them making them easier to aquire. Just sadly with the current set being the only set there is no chance of getting them ANY time soon at all.

Think of it as buying a car..wait till it's been out price is generaly cheaper cause not as novel now. Thats alot of our method in aquiring decks this rotation makes it impossible to do things in an economic fashion so kind of gives us the boot.

Guess that is why L5r is seeming appealing to me in particular A booster box costs as much as UFS and gives TWICE as many cards. Guess that also gives FFG more reason to try something..getting out bidded in the CCG war. Because the game is just as intense and has ninjas.