Alright this sudden rotation leaves me feeling cheated no doubt. And here is why when your told a set is going to be legal for x amount of time and is only legal for Y (yes you can run whatever you want at a store. Dosen't matter because it's not the tourney format so no point if your competitive). Just to me it makes hard to now believe ANYTHING Hata or Steve say creditablity has been reset to zero.

So now to play at the major tournament level I need to go out and buy up hundreds of dollars of the new set to offset losing access to my hundreds of dollars of cards that had promised play time? With no apology or any chance of a redemption program or something to offset the sting done Where is the creditability of FFG and UFS in the ability to keep their word to a player.

Everyone can say I have a sense of entititlement over this but put it this way you buy something you want to get your moneys worth. Would you buy a car if it would only run on monday and tuesday and not start the rest of the week NOOOOOOOOO. So why buy a card game that the designers decide to early rotate and cut playtime of cards down to less than half of the stated playability. It just dosen't make sense to me?

Is there going to be some kind of redemption program maybe turn in cards to a retailer or mail to FFG get something for your money? I doubt it as much sense as it would make and help smooth out some of the issues. I know our playgroup will be down from around 10 to probably under 5 because of this. WHY? were competitive players all but simply don't have the financial means to now go REBUY tourney grade decks up.

So really is there going to be any plan to offer any sort of "Were sorry we boned you hard' type thing or is it just a "Take it and like it" situation if it's the latter well AEG just realized new and awesome rules for L5r and base set and they keep their word to players I know where my money is going.....and it is drawing a good bit of our players because FFG from a buisness stand point at least in my location shot themselves in the foot on this one with thousands of dollars of now unmoveable product on the shelves that hurts our store hurts our players and to me I think hurt the game by default no sales no game. And while 3 maybe 4 people are dedicated I just rather not waste my money on a game that is going to essentialy void my product randomly with no way to make up for it.

And even if your not going to support the player on this try to help the retailer helps encourage them buy from you.

And sadly things like that are a game killer. While the die hards who go out and buy 4 boxes of every set are fine and lovin it the less monetarily endowed are shrugging and moving on...at least where I am I can't vouch for the game as a whole just what I see localy

I'm one of the most broke players around and I'm loving the change.

YMMV, so don't speak for everyone else.

Inherently if you were keeping up with the game as it was then this anouncement shouldnt leave you in the lurch to be competitive. You were buying the new sets and using them anyway. Granted you can use less of your selection of cards now but it affects everyone evenly who keeps up with set releases. If you are competitive, you buy every set. Period.

I do feel for you in that you feel jipped out of your older cards a bit, but on the same note you would not be able to use them in any future FFG events anyways, because they were not going to have any before rotation. There is no reason if you and your group feel so strongly about this that you cant just play old standard in your area. The events will still recieve prize support so more power to you.

I'm not entirely sure what the goal of this topic is, but in order to answer you properly I need to know this -

What 'tournament level' competitions were you intending to play in between now (Sept 1) and what would have been rotation anyways?

To a lot of people Gencon and worlds is the last major tourney of the season before rotation... I'm curious why it isn't the same for you? And if so, asumming there are still a few of these 'tournament level' compeititions, why would you be buying block 3 stuff for a few tournies when you could have made a more economical decision and bought block 4 stuff that would definately last you longer?

Also the majority of your topic points to the rotation being 'out of the blue' or 'unexpected'. Why weren't you aware that this was looming? The introduction of a 'mini-block format', the banning of a large number of 'old' cards, there were lots of indication that FFG and the playerbase was not enjoying the way things were, and from those indications it isn't/wasn't surprising at all when rotation was announced.

- dut

TaintedDoughnut said:

Why don't people read the announcements. YOU CAN HOUSE RULE B3. Its not that hard. You just have to post the fact publically and on your game sign up. Its not that hard. Your cards are still good. Do you have more then 1 venue in your town? Then talk to them as well. Do you not want to play legacy? Fine don't play legacy and play modified B3 and you still get prize support. I don't see what the big deal is. Most people aren't going to be traveling around the country let alone their own state just to play a game of UFS.

honestly does it really matter that they rotated early? The ONLY thing it will effect is the store championships...there were not going to be any big tournies before the original rotation was there? Also anyone who sees card games as an investment are idiots. You buy these things to have fun and play games.

Actually, the store and city championships were gonna be miniblock anyways if I'm not mistaken >_>

ShadowDragon said:

Unless it was said informally at Worlds, it was never announced as such.

ShadowDragon said:

I don't think you are (mistaken), which is why I couldn't really answer his post without first finding out what he is really missing out on Tourney-wise between now and when rotation would have been.

- dut

dutpotd said:

Tourney-wise he would have missed nothing, as nothing has been announced for post-Worlds other than the UK nationals.

At the rate UFS was dwindelling - Steve was concerned that there wasn't going to be a sufficient player base in six months.

So if the game died completely because there was no rotation, what would your cards be worth then?

Homme Chapeau said:

Which was said it could be done in B3 anyways.

Most proplayers, and I do include myself in this, went to early rotation last year after gencon, and were planning to go to mini after gencon this year. Since this announcement would hit proplayers hardest, I dont see it as to mcuh of a big deal because I had already started to sell my cards for the previous rotation before the announcement.

Now the happy medium here would be if FFG would do more reprints, even ones included in sets, so we can use our old card more so.

Protoaddict said:

THIS^^

Go through the sets and determine what cards can be brought back, consistent with the direction block 4 is going, ('most' of the attacks can... foundations seem to be the biggest problem) and 5 point em.

- dut

Ah...son of *****! First things first, calling someone an idiot b/c they feel that making UFS an investment is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their god **** opinion. After all....THIS IS AMERICA. (Feel free to repeat that like THIS IS SPARTA.) For some it is an investment in time and I can see how one can be frustrated over such a thing. Please keep in mind that investments are not always dealing with the benjamin's. Now to be honest I know this dude and have heard his point in person. He along with some other gamers in our store are pretty much split right down the middle with me siding with the restart b/c I belive things can get pretty **** interesting. Yet the reality of it all, whether you like it or not, is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. No you will not agree all the time, if ever. You will point out the facts and still it will not be enough. I hate to even admit this, however the truth is we are going to loose players...bashing them for there irritation and sense of loss shows a lack of understanding. A person will not stay in the game if all you do is say so. If that same person continues to persist than ignore them or here is a more novel idea...try not to reply to the post you are wasting time for more important things like watching porn. With that said....

Tainted your idea of a redemption program might work better with the store owners. I do not doubt that the news effects the store owners on a far more higher financial level than that that would effect us. To take the product off the shelves of store owners that are now obsolete with the new rotation would benefit FFG in the long run vs. what you are suggesting and should MOST definately be done. Yes, we are the consumers and it is the job of FFG to entice us yet in all reality what you want is far from what will happen. To do such a redemeption program would be counter-productive for them moving forward with the game. Loosing a game due to such a loss of product would break the bank and ruin FFG in and of itself. Remember that if a companies resources are down, than they can not make the neccesary moves to better a game that they wish to make better. I know that this is the case, so it is safe to say that you will be heading to L5R. With such a sudden change, it is even more safe to say that we will loose a few more people in our group. For those of you who are going to bash these people may I make one suggestion....get yourself a nice tall glass of shut the HELL UP! There are reasons such as lack of funds that could prevent someone from rebuilding fast enough and while our economy is recovering from the recession, not everyone can dump 50-80 bucks on UFS booster boxes.

Due to the facts that I have pointed out to you guys about a redemption program, do you the UFS players belive that such a redemption program should be done? What of redemption as it pertains to store owners? In short, don't be an asshat and focus on an answer to this post that pertains to redemptions and nothing else. Thanks in advance.

Here is the problem is that people that are in support of mini-block are not presenting the option for playgroups to keep things as they are. I would think that this would be the key thing that would end 99 percent of the arguments here. The issue is that everyone needs to bunker down and save their playgroups and not think about going outside that sphere for a while. This way there will give everyone time to rebuild. If not communites will die for no reason. It is up to us to house rule and tailor the game experience to our communites. It also requires us to get creative. Have a SNK VS CAPCOM night. Or have an death verses life tourney or all decks must be multi-symbol. Thing is that there seems to be an insane lack of creativity and intitive shown in scouts and communites. Part of the reason why things suck is because there is no variation or forcing people to play different cards.

But for the playgroups that want to play Standard because they want to play at all of the major (Important) tournaments like Nats and Worlds, there is no reason to play Legacy. And having 1 odd tournament a month can be fine, I've done it in the past and still kept it standard, but now All I could even attempt to do like that is SC4 vs. Shadowar, which is all we have at this moment anyway. And all we are getting is Tekken and... wait for it... more Soul Calibur...

Don't get me wrong I am pleased with this game trying to go back to where it once was. If this was the only way to do it, then so be it. I still feel a little ripped off at the now worthless Fight Night Kit (One 5 star card in the entire thing I think) and wish FFG would do something as compensation or redemption for all of the players they just suckered out of money.

I think the only way to get the game as a whole to where it needs to be is to improve card design. FFG please hear me out, you need more than 1 guy designing cards. Especially if your current guy is going to be doing 2 different card games at the same time. 1 man can only do so much, I would say the optimal amount would be 3 designers, so that they can always bounce ideas off of each other, and so the concepts don't get stale as they have done in the past. And with the limited amount of cards that will be released every year now, please do not release more than 1 set of any given lisence in a Year. 2 sets of SC4 kinda' sucks.

Ender Dragon said:

I will agree that one play designer does lend itself to a problem in the future. I will also say that a redemption of FNK isn't going to happen. There is no way to prove that you bought the kit without a recepit. I also think that they are going to offer another FNK after the next 2 sets come out so they can feel out what are the core cards that people need. Even if you got a discount on the next FNK I don't think it would pan out well.

FFG has already given you a redemption. you redeemed your standard cards for legacy cards.

kiit said:

You sir, win this thread lol

it's sad that we will continue to argue about this situation until FFG does something major to get the majority of players back. I would'nt want anyone to walk away from this game, and it up too us to make the best of it no matter what.

i can tell you that here in new york we have a large play group and the prizes suck because it would be arthurs back to back every week. But we don't let that stop us from meeting up and playing this game. the best thing a store can do is give out store credit so your $5 dollars turn into $40 in credit well enough to spend $20 bucks to get a new box.

Thank you Do for actually getting the point. It's not about playing what I want as much as it is the lie and situation FFG has placed players/retailers in with product.

I know there is a hella lot of Jank in B3 I did play Chun-Li. But the point of the 'proplayers' okay what about people like our play group who will go to regionals not standing a chance at winning it all just to have fun at the big games or are those type of players not welcome in ufs? Me personaly I like to win and didn't buy Soul Cal or Shadowar cause frankly for my deck there was no point in doing it and I can afford to build one deck per block thats it the economy sucks and has been biting me for awhile. Needed one card out of either set to edit my deck..got that common easy enough. And not like the deck didn't do well either 10th at NOVA 4th and swiss champ here in MD. But thats not the important part.

People spend alot of money on cards that were suppose to be legal in the big game for a good long while now you cut that down. So do you think retailers are really going to be clearing out those B3 cards now. I know our store won't move them. So really shouldn't FFG do something nice for the players and stores that keep them in buisness?

On another note awhile back there was an awesome mini's game called MechWarrior. It was doing rather well. And to anyone that says I a not 'proplayer' type you had to win a seat in Nats for that game not just show up I won a seat every year. But the game died because they did the same thing UFS just did. Prematurely rotate out product. It killed the game deader than fried chicken as players couldn't use things they had paid for and been told would be legal to use in tournaments.

What happened players just shrugged and moved on. The game never recovered from the loss of players because WIzkids decided to not offer any compensation to players or retailers after they burned them. It kills games to do things like that unless you offer some kind of nicety to offset the loss in profit for retailers and playability for players.If I didn't like UFS and want to still play UFS I wouldn't be saying a thing.

Now everyone can make the lame arguement about running what you want at the store. Still dosen't change the fact that FFG burned the retailers and players as I'm sure we won't see any B3 cards move at our store unless their given away now. This isn't so much about play format it's about telling players one thing than backstabbing and doing nothing about it.

Again seen this same kind of action kill a game even if it was "the best thing for the game" that dosen't mean it is always the best thing for the stores and players that support it. Because I gurrantee that UFS can not survive off 'Proplayers' alone your gonna need those people that like to play for fun that bounce around a region meeting new people playing fun games outside their play group. Right now baring something happening I see our play group no longer doing that. I myself love heading up to hanover playin a few games with Shane and Chubbs and all those crazy bastards. But now well I just cant and won't be able to afford to for sometime. And can vouch for 2 other players here on that note.

So while early rotation might be 'best thing for the game' in terms of playability is it the best thing for all the players? And will it generate new players when now your vets are droping out in some areas that have been die hard fans since block 1? Can you still trust anything the designers tell you? if they break established rules on length of playability once why wouldn't they do it again?

So look past this 'ProPlayer' elitest mentality crap and look at the other section of the community for once? Than tell me that some kind of compensation for players or Retailers wouldn't be the best thing for the game after 'the best thing for the game'

And if people that like to have fun with the game aren't suppose to be part of the game anymore well..is it even a game anymore?

@ Tainted: I don't think it is that the majority of players (those supporting the cylce) don't understand your sentiments. I think it is moreso that the majority of players have been able to get over 'it' for the good of the game. What you have to realize is that the numbers showed the game dwindling in popularity becuase of the 'stale state' of play which had almost everything to do with the 3rd block of cards - too many poorly designed cards, at least with respect to where the current design team and controllers wanted the game to be at.

'It' being a lie as you put it, I prefer to see it as a 'change in plans' - and like any change there will be casualties (things lost) as well as advances earned. To simplify things you have this 'ugly truth', which is what block 3 lasting another half year (a half year with few events) would be - ugly. Then you have the 'ugly truth' being nothing more than a lie, i.e. what was ugly is now gone. A lot of people see the end result and say - "yay, it is better". A lot of people go - "the means don't justify the ends, the ugly truth is gone but at the cost of calling it a lie".

Perhaps the reason for the initial response to your thread was as such was becuase you voiced it improperly. The argument about competitive players being shorted by the change doesn't hold water becuase there aren't many (any?) competitive tournies that would have been held with block 3 again. Your more recent post is perhaps a more appropriate way of explaining your dissatisfaction.

If you agree that this was the best thing for the game, and you express it many times in your post, then you will also note that what is best for the majority is not always what is best for the minority, and the designers have decided that sacrificing players like you and the 'odd' retailer (see my next paragraph) is worth attracting new players, retaining the majority of old players, and hence growing the game.

The reason your retailer thing doesn't sit well with me is just this. We have had block 3 stuff in stock, very little of it, for the last 4 months. No one buys it, everyone in the last 4 months have been buying SCIV and SW pretty much exclusively. The reason being, that even with a bad economoy (a good half of my players a) don't have jobs, or b) don't have a lot of disposable income) players tend to exhaust the sets quite quickly, and after they buy their supply of a set, in order to get the last few cards they need they trade or buy singles. In other words, if your retailers have a lot of block 3 stuff it is becuase they bought the wrong amount of it in the first place. You can't tell me that players still need set 8/9/10 etc. stuff and buy it as much as the new stuff? If they needed it they would have bought it when it came out, and before the majority of big tournies (which have gone by now). i.e. this stock wouldn't move anyways... rotation or not.

Long story short, your only argument that hits my ears is: FFG hurt the minority of players (those that value the status quo over changes that may seem like lies) in order to better the game, possibly attract new players, easily replace the minority that was miffed, and meet the majority's demands (i.e. the majority of players didn't like block 3 - note, I did, so this is kind of counter bias for me to explain it like this ). Sadly, this is big business, and FFG is doing it's damndest to be a big business publisher... It may not sit well with you, but I hope, at the very least, it makes sense.

- dut

Antigoth said:

Antigoth, We have seen similiar types of moves like this one before(esp. if what you have said is true about playing lots of ccgs). The question should be right now, "if the early rotation doesn't work then what?"

kimano said:

Silly question is silly, because you know the answer.

If the new block and design of said cards isn't enough to be a viable game over the foreseeable term then 'what' is the game goes under. This possiblity exists before and after an early rotation, it is better though to move forward and risk stepping into a hole (possibly not) than it is to stand still when you know you are in quicksand...

- dut