Foundations still have some abilities, they check for 4-6. Granted they haven't much blocks. HOWEVER I can still gray wall up with just 40 foundations in a deck...

Anyone noticing the continuance of gray wall wars in NewFS?

Hell yeah, it was always be around... specifically for **** Death and Earth, sometimes Life too "I commit this for blah life, this for more, that for more" ugh

foundations currently don't have that much 'cool' blocking but at least are still used to be blockers at like turn three or four when you have them to spare after two, three attacks.

though with that upcoming foundation "for the money" I think that blocking with foundations could be more common.

For example.

Turn one... play four foundations we'll say For the Money and then three other foundations that share All that I can't think of right now, End turn.
Opponent starts poke-slamming you and you are able to block a +3 modifier to their attack decently and then you can even reversal to them with For the Money readied bashing them back.

vermillian said:

vermillian said:

I can definately agree that watering down foundations isnt exactly the best way to go. However what FFG is doing now is helping, foundations dont mean nearly as much right now with more costs including foundations, more foundation blanking and at the moment tons of stun in the meta. I think FFG is on the right track.

Yes, however the agme is and pretty much has been primarilya bout the foundations. They are the fundamental core of the game, no?

Attacks are still required to win, and making 4 attack decks to OTK is a nigh impossible task, even in astrid.

BUT the problem lies in that grey walls are still present. :/ And i've built OTK decks in NewFs whereas the deck didnt run 4 attacks as per block 3 it ran 10 throws backed by ragnar's amazingass grey and Heir to the storm.

TBH a pure solution to the problem would be never to print foundations with blocks on them ever again.

knew_b33 said:

I don't see how For the Money will help with blocking with foundations.

For the Money
2/5 +3M, All Chaos Fire
R: Before you make a control check to play an attack, that check gets +2. Your opponent may commit 2 foundations to cancel this effect and destroy this foundation.

It only helps when blocking with an attack, and that assumes your opponant lets you use it.

-Tinman

I don't know about you, but I always run 16-20 attacks... playset of four or whatever because I do need those attacks. true foundations are core but the attacks are what I value most to shun down my opponents foundations and Combos do that really well.

I don't know exactly how to waterdown foundations in this game but I think I understand what you meant by stating the foundation blanking and stunning becoming possibly 'evil'

Tinman said:

Well no, I was saying that if you played foundations your first turn with one of those then your opponent... hypothetically, try to attack you then you could just use those other foundations to whatever for blocking with a foundation then even reversing on them.

but yeah... didn't think too straight there, just said what I thought at hand.

Grey wars never neccisarily meant a lot of foundations, I think it meant more a lot of Defensive and Negation foundations. Just cuz u can have 20+ foundations out doesnt mean its gonna be the gay control grey wars from b3

Gray wars will not win in the near future.

I have a deck that can kill turn 3 (sometimes even turn 2 but less often) with very little gray (or green) on the field. THIS is what the meta is aiming for.

The game is promoting attacking and blocking. By putting crappy (or no) blocks on foundations, they are promoting blocking with attacks. Which will in the end force the players to run more attacks.

The meta is easy to change; the players are not. Bad habits die hard, so even in a miniblock deck, people are afraid to start attacking turn 2.

yeah!!!

more people preaching about equal sense

I still believe that blocking with foundations will end up something that'll just happen if it does... maybe rarely, maybe often...

we need foundations like Pit Fighter again.

40 foundation deck.. most of your blocks will have +3 modifier, and alot of them wont even have a block, and also damage negation is slim right now, and Yishans dmg reduction tells you to attack anyway, so you can't stall that way. And also, I've won plenty of games against pure b3 stall/greywar decks with my miniblock decks simply because I can attack with slim to nothing on the board

So no I dont think greywars is reliable to win anymore

Bloodrunstrue said:

I beg to differ here good sir. Depending on what comes out in Tekken control wise, I may be running a 4 attack Astrid deck off stapling the promo in order to commit all my weapon assets. To top it off a lot of her useful support (Relentless and Envoy to the Queen) have weapon on them, and that coupled with up to 20 weapon assets (a bit steep I know, but I'm still learning b4), and multiple Dual Wieldings (it's good in folks other than Hilde guys ) could me hella huge Cleaves.

even in that magical scenario, the deck keels over and dies to a few copies of undisputed ruler or valued but not trusted(both of which also match symbols with perfect sense of balance and torn hero). 4 attack decks don't work, and will continue not working as long as the speed pumps stay manageable, and the best enhances in the game remain on attacks. The damage pump in the block is fairly strong, but even massive damage pumped throws will typically not one shot, and has problems with the same two cards I just mentioned. In general the Rashotep Support(amusingly since it is the main control in the format) keeps peoeple from being able to consistantly win with gimmicky decks.

There is always going to be an element of foundation combat, and imo it belongs in the game. How you define 'Gray Wars' will determine if you think they are gone or still around in block 4.

Foundations w/o blocks are fine, and this promotes running more attacks for obvious reasons (your offense is your defense). But highlighting the block mechanism as valid and important is what will keep us from having grey wars (as I think most people define them). i.e. if you can stop all damage to you with your foundations - negation, damage redux, life gain, then who cares about blocking...

As to running 4 attack decks... They aren't 'as viable' atm becuase a) there is a severe lack of recursion in the game, and b) there is a severe lack of 'push through' in the game. Yes there are speed pumps, but not many, and by the time they are pumped if your opponent has foundations out he/she will probably still be able to pull off a block on that 'one' big attack...

In other words, let's say you have a game with said Astrid where you draw 2 of her 4 attacks in deck (assumes also her foundation that grabs attacks after taking 4+ damage is negligent becuase you don't have easy momentum gain), Once blocked they are toast. I guess you could run 4 throws, but they are altogether harder to pump, have lower speed (i.e. easier to half block), etc.

Ultimately the only way to deter walling up is to cut back on foundations with low cost (early game) damage redux/negation. Right now, standoff is probably the best form of damage redux and it costs 2 foundations and can be negated.

- dut

B-Rad said:

Good to see someone is in the same boat as me man. indeed Astrid can OTK if built correctly, as can Hilde and ragnar ( notice how all these charcters are really top tier?)

The point being is OTK in one shot form is possible when backed by grey, not good.

Bloodrunstrue said:

I can't really see why being killed in one turn is a bad thing. You should be able to reverse your opponent after he/she overextends him/herself, fails to kill you, and kill him/her back.

The reason these 'low attack decks' will not do well is becuase they will not be able to block a barrage of early damage w/o good blocks and w/o damage reducing foundations. i.e. they don't have the time to create the grey backing without strong defensive foundations.

- dut

Said Astrid deck will be killed in three turns by any NewFS aggro deck. It's not even funny. There is literally nothing you can do other than block, and you will NOT have any blocks in a deck with 4 attacks and a ton of foundations. The best block you'll have is a +2, and no way to change the zones or defending against Throws unless you pack damage nerfs for Throws.

Ergo, Astrid takes it like a ho.

And still that just goes to show the game is where it supposed to be right?

Bloodrunstrue said:

Where something is supposed to be and where it needs to be are two different things.

But, yes, the game in block 4 atm is agressive enough that it stimulates and rewards the use of 'more attacks than block 3' which in and of itself is refreshing.

I have a good feeling that once more licenses, more characters, more strategies (all equally new/interesting) arrive that the complaints about block 4 (yes there will still be complaints) will pale in comparison to those voiced in late block 3.

- dut

dutpotd said:

Hey it's the forums, there's ALWAYS gonna be complaints it's inevitable.

While in a way what y'all saying is makin sense, I'd just like to point out I said after Tekken was released

I've got a feeling Tekken will bring some new stuff in, but at the same time bring in the same ol' crap in, and control will feesably be getting better. That currently is the problem with trying to get into the new meta, you might as well wait another few weeks for Tekken.

dutpotd said:

dutpotd said:

It's more a warning than anything. NewFS is not the same game as UFS. The "gray wars" are not applicable. Gray cards influence the game, obviously, otherwise they would be useless. However, they do not shape the game. Attacks are more than just "an orange card I have to play to win, but honestly if I did not have to play it, I wouldn't" to a viable strategy and worth packing for the most part.

honestly, I'd rather have control come through attacking and then having foundations that supplement said control than Gray = control and Orange = Aggro.

There is not reason not to run more foundations than anythnig else in your deck 99% of the time. Its not because foundations are better always, its because fundamentally foundations are the only cards that have 5 checks as well as allow you to play progressivley more every turn. Untill we start seeing attacks with 4+ control i dont think you can ever expect to see foundations lessen in influence. Im currently running something like 40 in my NewFS decks and i dont expect it to go down too much. Decks that merge characters can prob run a few less just because of the 6 checks floating around the deck, and IVY builds can do it cause they dont need to pass over a 3, but thats a rare exception.

I personally feel the grey wars meant piles of dmg reduc and negation all sprinkled with cc hacking cheese.

To be honest though this block really focuses on the aggro aspects of the game, which is a GOOD thing.

Hey Guitalex don't forget turn 2 2 foundations 22 dmg oh yeah so sweet!