SInce we are entering the newfs the question that posed in my mind is should there be a base damage cap on attacks? The main reason I say this is that because the game is becoming more and more aggro focused the potential for the 1 shotting and 2 shotting becomes more prevelant. If that element becomes too strong then we will shift back to grey wars because people will only have to wait to pull high damaging attacks. The reason I bring this up is because of Seigfried Earth Divide. The card does a base 13 damage and I believe it is the highest damaging card currently legal. In the B3 there were plenty other card combos that put it to shame. But that was also in the world of the one and two shots behind a wall of gray.

So should big damaging base attacks still exist in NEWFS or should it be something that should be moved away from in favor of string of attacks or playing multipe attacks over several turns? Or should the big base damage attack still be promoted in the game as a deteriant to turtling and execessive life gain.?

Although the game is going more towards aggro, I feel control mill and tank should also show an appearance as this is a CCG. This means that although the game should be fighting based (the theme of the game) there should be means other than fighting. for instance within the licences that appear in this game line up there are several ways of one shotting your opponent. This should also appear within the game iteslf, probably.

No, there is no reason to "cap" the base damage on attacks, that limits card design, which is bad for the game.

I am far more worried about speed than damage. It doesn't matter how much damage an attack gets, if it can be blocked. But if speed boosts get to high, or discard becomes too prevalent, then the one shot kill will be a problem.

Umigame

I don't think there should be a base damage cap at all. Imo, Seigfried's Earth Divide is a bad example because of its pre requisite to have to play another 2 attacks prior. I doubt high base damage attacks will make Grey wars come back simple because it was the foundations themselves that really cause that to come about, because it was those abilities that kept people alive until they tried and threw out a big damage attack. Personally I think high damage attacks do the opposite, they allow people to do massive amounts of damage quickly, so sitting and trying to foundation build might be a bad idea. Though I prefer the current state of the game pace wise, I do agree that other ways of winning do have their place. Personally I like mill, one of my favorite cards is Contemplation but I think mill should be more aggressively/attack based, Bishamon2 was sorta what I'd like to see, but the inherent flaw was that it worked better to wall and play more wall than to attack. Contemplation makes it so if you don't play attacks you are f-u-c-k'd, and thats a good move (if that card had been legal I think things would have been very interesting at worlds). But anyway, It was really damage reduction and negation that got out of hand that allowed one shot decks to function and not fear being ransacked turn 2 or 3. Thats exactly why Death and Earth did well at Worlds, Death negated everything, Earth made damage non-existant. Personally I'd rather see most damage reduction only go to printed damage minimum, or maybe half printed rounded up, instead of minimum 1. Turtling can have its place just fine, but it first line of defense should probably be blocks not damage redux.

Anyway, nah based damage cap won't keep one shot stall/wall decks from popping up, a handle on damage reduction and negation will though.

From my experiances, a "base damage cap" is unnessesary in this game, as it already has a system for it in place. By matching cards with high damage with high cost, or high risk (ie 1 checks), everything is kept in line. There are no 3 difficulty 12 damage attacks for a reason, because then you would need a cap, just to make it so the game was playable, and not, to mix game types, a button mashing contest. To farther explain my point, let us look at a few 'high damage' attacks:

Earth Divide. Obvious first, as it has some of the highest damage in the legal block. Downsides in place? Plenty. A 2 check, no block, and a restriction to play it. Not to mention a character only ability on it. These limiting factors make this powerful card require a bit of support, which in turn, allows setup in opposition.

Odin's Wrath. Another high damage attack. Yes, it has a block, as well as a 3 check. This card, exspecially considering the standard Astrid decks out there, can get some incredible damage on it. Downsides? High cost. At 8 difficulty, and no real way to decrease the difficulty, it is not going to be easily playable till turn 2 or 3, and even then, a low check could commit a large chunk of the staging area. In addition to that, the card has no abilites other than the keyword, making it wholly dependant on your grey matter to push it through. (See what I did there)

Wrath of Heaven. At 8 difficulty with a Combo ability, to make full use of this card takes some serious effort. In addition, it does not share keywords with the deck type it requires to work, or have a block, making it a liability to hold onto in favor of other cards. High Speed and Damage is matched by the risk of a 2 check, and the abilites it offers, again, come at a higher cost then most.

Third Rite. (Last one, I promise) Another power card that has hit the table. This, like Wrath, has a high cost to be most effective. Given, with the preceding support of First and Second Rite, the cost can be mitigated a bit, but that is all reliant on the First Rite doing damage. With this card, it offers a 3 check with no block (balancing) but to put out the top damage, you must both generate and keep 2 momentum, a task that may be easier, or harder, with the upcomming release of Tekken.

Ukyo's Apple. 'Nugh Said. Even the most TLDR arguments must to have a few holes in their logic.

-Tinman

Hmm example of a perfect attack? Tiamat's Rampage please.

While it does have a stipluation of 2 attacks in front of it, who cares. Its 3 check, 6 difficulty for...12 damage?! With a Stun 3 AND a Powerful 4.

Attacks like that just doesn't get printed anymore..

To pass Siggy's Earth Divide, unless you roll a character, you need to commit 3 foundations. I can make a Hammer Uppercut deal 13 damage with a 3 foundations, let's say Stand Off - In Search of Plunder - Hope for One's People. Check a 5, commit 3, 3H13. Hammer Uppercut even has a block and a strongly relevant ability. And it doesn't have that nasty "must play 2 attacks first" text.

Tinman hit the issue on the head really well, too.

@Kawaii: Timmy's is good, but overall I like Spin Knuckle, Clones, or Ichi no Tachi better. Of course, the 1st and 3rd on that list make great lead-ins for Timmy's, too

Hilde and Dual Wielding love Odin's Wrath.

To me the issue is not the boost damage issue. Everything people are describing is boosting the damage of a preset attack to higher numbers. As for Earth Divide it can cost less with Ivy support so it could check for 6. That isn't on top of any other check discounts you can play. In the future I think there will be more check support. Take all that buffing you put on a smaller attack and put it on earth divide it becomes an one shot.

Timmy's as a Reversal, now that is a perfect attack I should build that deck for legacy sometime.

I was hoping someone would mention some Block 1 stuff since we are essentially returning to the beginning of the game (SF01 SC01 etc). Those first few sets were the ones which created a real fervour before the later ones killed it a wee bit. I most people never had a problem with any cards in the earlier sets bar the obvious banned stuff (and Yoga Mastery), and Hata has pretty much reprinted those early sets with better costing, so I don't see how SED is causing problems. Original Earth Divide never made anyone cry, it was just scary in Blanka, nor did Tiamat's. Discard and YM did, but they're not back.....yet. I say yet because I am a little bit afeared of what I see popping up on Nina's support.

Summary - I is not a scared of large base damage attacks. They still need a way to go through, otherwise they're a good tactic if you catch your opponent napping.

Duckman said:

Or if you're a grandmaster with a hula hoop.

darklogos said:

siggy's earth divide can't one shot. you have to play 2 other attacks. base damage has never been a problem. multiples, powerfull, and other damage pumps are what can get out of hand and cause one shoting. which isn't bad necasarily, it just can get over the top.

trane said:

What like a 28 damage Wheel Kick in mono Fire Zi Mei? *Squints at Eggle*

trane said:

Opponent blocks two attacks, you ED, Sig E, Sig character E, and then anything else you have (assets, foundations, actions)...you're saying that can't OHKO?

I'll echo the sentiments of the others with an emphasis on what Trane said about all the other stuff. Base damage has never 9in my opinion) been an issue, as the design of the card should in most cases balance out it's printed stats. It's nearly-costless boosts that make cards ridiculous. Before rotation you could use Fight of Flight on Siegfried's Earth Divide, so for one simple commit, it goes from 13 to 26 damage. That's crazy (and not in the good way).

Having to play two other attacks before an already-printed 6 difficulty card, is fairly balanced. While it can kill you in one turn, it's not likely to be the first turn. As has been said before, all the damage in the world doesn't matter if the opponent can completely block it.

I think the game needs card like Sieg's Earth divide. For one, there are plenty of attacks in Fighting games that are pretty much the same thing so it fits with the theme of the game. Two, you need some kind of high damage attacks in order to finish off your opponent, otherwise you'll never punch through some of the tough defenses certain decks can pull off. Three, it gives you a deeper amount of strategy to worry about. You could blow your blocks on the first two attacks, just to get murdered by Sieg's Earth divide. Or you could expect the finisher, take a couple of hits and realize that your opponent didn't draw it, meaning he got some free damage off of you.

Plus, I find it pretty balanced. As stated, you need to have 2 attacks before it, meaning you have to have 3 attacks total in your hand (not as hard to do as it is with some of the combo cards, but worth mentioning). Plus, it's speed is decent, but there aren't a lot of ways to boost it. It can easily be blocked if your opponent suspects you have it. And, one more thing that just hit me, it's a 6 difficulty base. In a format with no 6 check foundations (or anything really, except characters) that means you'll need to commit stuff regardless of how you check.

It's powerful, but most attacks on this power scale are balanced.

id much rather deal with cards like siggys earth divide and timmys rampage and even the original earth divide then dealing with a 50 damage tsunami saber or a fully multipled spike