Now i know that this may not make me popular especially seeing that i am new to the forums. But by no means am I new to this game. I am quite saddened by all the consistent complaining about this sudden change in the game that some so is a good thing and others say is a horrible atrocity. I have read about our money and time, our characters and fav sets and do not blame the new guys hwo are trying to help us and this game out. All the while we did little to nothing to fix the problems our selves. And for the people who are asking them selves what could we have done? I say this, I have be a supporter and most important a player of this game sinse day one. If ever a game that allowed a player to change it's course it is this one. If we as a play group had a problem with a card or cards, with a play environment cause by a print error it was dealt with quickly and decisevely. If we had an issue with the game we called or emailed whom ever would listen and would'nt stop until someone at least acknowledged us. If that was not enough we took the card out of play our selves if someone new came we respectfully taught them to play and did not to just win. We as a united entity saw a prize that is unparalleled in the ccg world today. To be immortalized and able to truly become a part of the game we all share and play is a powerful motivator that may cause even the best of us to forget the main reason we play this game. Which is to have fun, meet cool people and to build some thing we as players can be proud of and if all of you can tell me that as a collective we are proud of what this game has become then I am sorry for the waste of time that this is. But if you are like me and have watched this game and many of it's players become subpar at best then let this move happen as smoothly as possible, please.

The time when we as a collective could have done something to change the game has and the problem is to far gone to just start piss'in and complaing and hoping that they will change their minds, (especially after worlds). We had the opportunity to shun certain cards and we did not, we had the oppertunity as a collective to write off certain card combinations and not only did we not play the cards we use them to the fullest and beyond to win and then we openly admit that these are problem cards. So we failed there as well and now some are upset because someone else has Taken the reigns (aplayer might I add) and said enough. No this utter nonsense to be upset about something we could have not only prevented but made a mark in ufs history and pulled this thing together our selves. But now we get what ever they give and it is our own doing. Not everyone is to blame and i do realize that we have had a crappy lot in this at times and we just tried to make it work but we as well as they did fail and we do need to take up our share of this and run with it or drop it. Give it time to work and if it does not help fix it or we will come full circle and be mad and ready to leave the game again. I have spent countless hours and over 5,000 dollars on this game I am not the happiest either but i do recognize that i do share (no matter how much) some of the blame. And so I deal and hope to help make this game better because the alternative is not preferable. I hope to inspire unity and a good spirit of play among us and that is all, peace.

copy and pasted link to my signature...

you are the awesomes for saying it soo professionally, now I don't feel alone about the complaints

Excellent post. What it essentially boils down to is people are gonna hate the rotation because they feel financially cheated as now 80% of their collection is a wash or they're going to love it because it actually makes the game into what it has supposed to be for the past 3 years: a fighting game. Despite the fact that many players are pissed about the changes due to their collections being substantially less valuable, they have to understand that this is the best thing for the game that has ever been done. Shadowar, SC4, and Tekken are easily the best designed sets in UFS period. This should be a welcome change for old UFS players and a fresh start for new/retired UFS players. This is essentially a brand new game with the same rules as before. I know our playgroup has completely revitalized due to the changes. Bottom line is if you love the game you will continue playing it. Magic players see 3 sets go every year. Rotation is important to keeping a game healthy and UFS was one on the verge of death. I just hope that people will see it that way. James and Steve are doing everything they can to ensure that this game stays alive and that players are happy. Please show your appreciation by continuing to play the game they are putting so much work into and not turning off new players to the game.

Thank you for understanding and sharing your thoughts with me. Ufs has now become a living thing that is feuled by us, the players. As players we have become the lifes blood of this game and if we have bad players we then have bad blood. It is silly to assume that James and Hata will fix and manitain this entire game for us we have the right,ability and responsibility to play this game with integrity and the expectation of quality product. And that if we do not receive quality cards to help along a quality play experience then we are to voice our concerns and our sensible want to our partners at hq. Thank you again and you are never alone in this there are to many who feel this just as you and i do but that is only half the issue it is more important to unite and move this game to a place we all can enjoy and play with pride. Air is one of the best symbols ever and thats that. Peace.

I have one main disagreement:

I don't think it's fair to say we could have stopped playing with overpowered or unfun cards. Yes, that's fine on the casual level. But if certain cards are legal and overpowered, they WILL be used at big tournaments (regionals, nationals, worlds, etc.). So if you're playing to win those big tournaments, you're going to be playing with those overpowered cards on the local level, to get the kind of practice with them (and against them) you need.

Keep in mind that I am an entirely casual player. I would never run cards I considered overpowered unless I was also handicapping myself in some severe way (i.e., the only deck I ran that had Absurd Strength in it also had about 20 2-checks; the only deck that ran Bitter Rivals was a Dan/Sean theme deck).

Even though I would (for the most part) ban overpowered cards in my own decks, I would never ask my fellow players to stop running them. I would complain. I would remind them jokingly that playing cards like Shinobi Tradition (which negate progressive difficulty) were essentially cheating. I would make them feel a little guilty. But I wasn't too serious about it because they were major competitors, and I knew they needed to use all the tools at their disposal if they wanted to be winners.

I suggest you check out David Sirlin's book on Playing to Win. It's got some very interesting stuff in there, but one of his major arguments is that you should always play to win, and that means using everything legally at your disposal that will get you there. Otherwise you're not playing the true game, and competition becomes a farce. A side benefit is that problems in game design are discovered. But fixing those problems is the responsibility of the game designers, not the players.

That said, the rotation is the designers taking responsibility and trying to fix the design, and most of us (maybe all of us) recognize that.

I think the major complaints most of us have about rotation are twofold:

1. FFG sucks donkey balls when it comes to communicating with its players. There should have been more advance notice. (FFG also doesn't keep its communication promises in a timely manner; case in point: complete spoilers for Tekken were promised but not delivered; info on prize to replace regional winners' dinner was promised but not delivered.)
2. A lot of us have a lot of favorite characters from Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, King of Fighters, Samurai Shodown, and even Penny Arcade whom we miss playing as. (For many of us, these licenses are what drew us to the game in the first place.) Some players love the game, but dislike Soul Calibur, Tekken, and ShadoWar; some really want to beat up on Ivy and Astaroth with Ryu and Ken. Since the whole concept of the game was multiple franchises beating up on each other (like Capcom's Vs. line taken to the nth level), it sucks to have only Namco franchises. We're getting another SoulCalibur set in October, and I think a lot of us would have been a lot happier if that was a Street Fighter or Darkstalkers set. Waiting an indefinite amount of time for our favorite characters (certainly at least 6 months) blows. Why should die-hard Street Fighter players stick around in the meantime?

Don't get me wrong. I love SCIV and ShadoWar and Tekken. I love UFS. I'll be with the game the whole way. But I believe that those who play the game for Street Fighter have a right to complain about exactly how this was implemented.

ShippuJinrai said:

As an avid Magic player, I feel I have to respond at this point, and am glad someone else brought this up. it is true that Magic has a rotation every year, and three sets rotate out at that time. But there is a difference between that and what happened here. When Magic sets rotate out, there are still 5 legal sets for people to use, those being the current Core Set, the newest set which is rotating in, and every set released within the past year.. In addition, everyone knows when rotation is going to occur, and can plan accordingly. They start trading away cards they think will decrease in value, see if their decks can continue to function without the cards they are about to lose, and make new decks if that is not the case.

Contrast that with what happened here. This rotation was a complete surprise to everyone, and noone had any time to prepare for it. There will be 3 legal sets once rotation occurs, a number sharply reduced from the normal amount. Sets which were released within the past six months will be gone.

The prevailing opinion on these forums seems to be that this rotation was a good thing. I happen to disagree, for reasons I have explained before and will not go into here. But even assuming that this rotation was good for the game, this is not, in general, how rotations should be done. While I agree that rotation is useful in keeping the game fresh, doing it so suddenly will have negative consequences. I can only hope that this was a unique occurrence, and that those in charge of such things will learn from the example of games where rotation is handled better.

kraazivaan said:

I understand where you are coming from completely. I played competetive magic for a number of years as well and i suppose the comparison isnt the best. But I disagree with you on the fact that this is bad for the game. UFS absolutely needed this to root out the issues left over from previous, broken sets. There simply was no way to preserve the game for another year without doing something drastic like restarting the game. I am in complete agreeance with you kraazivaan about how it was not handled well. No player should just immediately have almost their entire collection made unplayable in the course of ten minutes. For a consumer that is awful and i agree with you. Magic's rotations are scheduled. But there was no other way to handle a rotation like this. The game needed to be restarted. It was too out of hand. This was evident by the rampant bannings in the past few months simply doing nothing but making the game slower and less fun. In essence i agree with you completely in saying that this is not how rotations should be done. But James and Steves' hands were tied. This was the only way to ensure that we will have a Worlds 2010 and a game to play for the next season.

@ArmedPirate- i understand where you are coming from with the lack of multiple franchises. But look at it this way. FFG develops sets months in advance. While Tekken and the second sc4 set were scheduled to come out, im sure james and steve had no idea they would have to drop rotation like this. I am in the same boat as you. I got into this game because i love street fighter and snk. Those two are my favorite franchises. I actually cant stand soul calibur as a franchise. The characters dont interest me, i hate how the games handle, and its just a garbage game in general imho. However, i love that UFS is now, overall, a WELL DESIGNED game. Mini-block is great. the format feels like you are actually playing a fighting game. Foundations are not near as strong and all your best blocks are on attacks. In fighting games, if you are attacking, you are not defending. This element hasnt been prevalent in UFS since the first snk set. Don't worry. Steve and James listen to what we say. If the community demands an SFIV set, i can guarantee they will do everything in their power to make it happen. How long did we ***** for tekken for them to finally get it? Or king of fighters? I think what a lot of people dont see is that we dont have street fighter in the block right now because the devs did not know they were going to have to do this. They were counting on the 4 point street fighter sets being legal for a while. If you like the game, then please keep playing it. You and I will get our street fighter soon enough.

kraazivaan said:

The UFS meta was very out wack. The powers that be did this as a one time emergency rotation to right the ship, and fix what numerous bannings could not.

This was a "reset" more then a rotation. They have stated that the next rotation will not occur until after Gencon 2011, when the 5 pointed cards will rotate out at that time.

At which point rotation will happen once per year, after Gencon, proceeding forward.

The powers that be have openly stated that they were concerned at the state of where the game was, and were concerned that if they did not do rotation "NOW", there would be not be a sufficient player base left in six months because of the overall dissatisfaction with the game state.

This was the culmination and ultimately cleansing of the STG - FFG transition.

What they tried to do with the sets by the erratas and the bannings was an attempt to keep more than the two sets in for the card pool and the players. and even though that list was updated the plays were still 'too powerful' for oncoming players... true stated before that a 'casual' play will include too many 2-checks but thats how new players get started, they learn what to seek for; cards with a better check and so on with attack preferances and soon foundation bases and action responses. being an avid card game player I will go out an say I believe this is the best movement, true in MTG there are at least five sets that remain per rotation but even then that's too much diversity for some players and too much cash to dish. but with UFS I really enjoy this movement, because when in Madison with ShadowDragon being the scout she even had multiple decks of 'skill' levels and 'styles' to go against and be fair for others, inlcuding the events she would come up with too where we all had to be unorthodox.

Along with teaching people how to start playing the game... Teaching is easy, but having them play was different. I built two decks, a good one and a casual one. I gave them the casual one to give them the idea and after they get the gist of what to aim for during gameplay then I let them try the good deck to get them the pace of the game. And now with my roommates that learn to play the game they are ready to start with only these three sets out as the only cards now, preferably Tekken and Soul Calibur. Personally I prefer to be the casual kind of player, but that was too long while and i'm slowly getting better an better with ShadowDragon and TripsEX bashing me left an right getting the true image of the game to my eyes. Aside from playing the game there's always expenses; too many cards, too much money too spend on the 'right' cards. now with three sets out there's not that many to filter through.

Antigoth said:

I think you have provided a clue as to why I am unhappy with this rotation, and so many others seem to like it. It appears that this reset is supposed to fix problems that were not in evidence within the group of people I played with, so from my perspective, this is a change with many negatives and no benefits. Even at the most recent regionals I played at earlier this year, where people were bringing the most competetive decks they could, and none of the bannings had taken place, there seemed to be plenty of evidence pointing to a healthy environment. Every symbol was represented, no characters were duplicated among players, and people generally seemed to be having a good time with it. But on the forums, most people seem to think this is a good thing, so I guess there were/are apparently widespread problems that, for whatever reason, were not occurring in my area.

knew_b33 said:

knew_b33 said:

Ive also noticed that the entry price of this game has decreased since the rotation due to the ultra rares being more character centric rather than symbol centric. LIke how you can only play shredding vibrato in tira effectively and while breaker/launcher is great, most fire decks dont run it. The presence of cards like brt and feline spike really hurt new players trying to get competitive where you had to have playsets of each to compete.

Everyone who was at worlds im sure notiticed that UFS was not UFS anymore. The rotation was not right in alot of ways, as mentioned, because people could not plan for it. But Magic never had to deal with such a break in design. the game would have deid. If not, it would have only been played casually after worlds, until all of the old broken cards everntually rotated out anyway. it was a last ditch effort by FFG (James and Steve) that people who went to worlds will most likely agree was the best thing that could have happened. There was no fighting in UFS this year, It was just one attack, a character and a million foundations and assetts. It was my first time to worlds, and I still enjoyed it quite a bit, but the game was not what it should have been.

P.S. I played Falicia with 13 attacks

Ooh were you the Felicia I played against that kept on checking badly against me?

My Morrigan ran 18 attacks and 4 seals. Talk about bad control checks for me.

KawaiiMistress said:

The sad thing is, 2 years ago, 18 attacks and 3 seals was standard ...

So is it unaminous that the conversation that casual vs quality is done for how to reel in new players?

People keep saying that this sudden rotation is bad for the game. They're right.

People keep saying that this sudden rotation is good for the game. They're right.

As repeatedly stated by many parties, the meta was all out of whack. This really was the only solution. If they'd banned another dozen cards it would only have made other cards surface as problem cards. However a much better solution would have been to aggressivly promote the "Mini-Block" format. The only major tourney before rotation was UK Nats anyways right? So what has this changed actually accomplished? It's made some people excited about mini-block, and it's made people who bought any decent quantity of the product that wasn't Mini-Block rather disenfranchised.

FFG has cut off their leg to save their foot.

aslum said:

::Raises Hand::

Hi... I own a playset of every card in the game. I have purchased an extensive amount of UFS to aquire said collection. I do not feel disenfranchised in the slightest by this decision.

Antigoth said:

Yeah but apparently you're special so you don't count.

Also... responsibility? I have that? Someone must have screwed up bad then.

Antigoth said:

Sure. Our newest player bought a FNK as a way to get into the game. He's now got what, 6 cards he can use?

Anecdotal evidence is just that. And you and he are both pretty much the extremes. Most people who bought a FNK or a couple boxes of Warrior's Dream or whatever, especially when they did so right before the announcement are a bit put out. Just because you don't mind FFG devaluing your cards, and can spend so much money on them that they're practically valueless to you, doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.

Also, didn't hitting top 8 at worlds give you a playset of SCIV and S? That's not an advantage most people have. Regardless, read my whole post. I did say it was a good idea in addition to being a bad one. They just could have handled things a LOT better.

Antigoth said:

While that may be true for you, it is not the case for everyone. I know I and others have posted before about what this did to the amount of legal cards in our collections.

If you have a playset of every card, then you still have the cards necessary to build new decks. I currently don't. If I want to make a deck legal for after the rotation, I'm going to have to get a bunch of new cards. Even people who have decks built around 5-point characters are not guaranteed to be spared this hassle; my brother's Astrid deck, for example, might need changes if it to remain legal.

aslum said:

Huh? My cards? Valueless? I play legacy. I'll still be using my cards in two months time.

If I was concerned about investments, I wouldn't be "investing" in card games. For my investments I have my RRSPs (It's a Canadian thing, feel free to google / wiki it for more info), as well as various stocks. I'm more concerned about my stocks that have performed poorly then cards "rotating" in a game.

Besides - your new player who bought the fightnight kit can still use all of his cards in legacy. I mean you just bought what 4 bricks of Cutting Edge starters... so I get the feeling that some folks in your area will be itching to play legacy.

kraazivaan said:

Forgive me, but that's something I'm still having to get used to. In some of my previous CCG experience I played Raw Deal quite heavily, and each time a new set came out, players would go out and split cases, so that everyone would have cards to use and to build with.

I've heard not just yourself, but others who have exclaimed that "because of this rotation, they won't have any legal cards." This entire concept is completely foreign to me.

I don't mean to be rude, or be an ass, but... we're playing a collectible card game. Not a living card game, but a collectible card game. The latest set, which is the new base set, which the next rotation was going to be based around anyway - came out 4 months ago. After the set's been out for four months, people don't have enough cards from the set to build a deck?

If you guys seriously aren't buying the new product when it comes out, why are you even concerned with playing "standard"? Clearly you're not, otherwise you'd be using the new cards. If you're playing the game with what you've got, then keep playing the game with what you've got.

Maybe I've got the wrong mind set... the way I look at it is as follows:

• I play UFS for the mechanics and the interactions.
• I play UFS for the social aspect of going out, playing games, meeting people, and having interesting experiences.

Maybe it's the fact that I've been playing CCG's for 15+ years, and I have a closet full of cards from dead games. Then again I did go and buy booster boxes of Highlander CCG 1st ed at Gencon because I wanted to relive hacking off some heads.

Antigoth said:

I don't go out and buy tons of cards just to have them. I mostly buy the cards that I feel like having and using. And there hasn't been much in ShadoWar and SCIV that has grabbed me. I am also not in a wonderful place financially right now, so I didn't feel like throwing tons of money at the new sets.

The point about rotation removing people's legal cards is as follows. When rotation occurs, it should be at a point where people have had sufficient time to get the cards that are going to be legal, and at a point where a sizeable pool of legal cards will still be around. I understand why this rotation happened, but the fact is that the pool of legal cards is much smaller right now than it should be.

And as you mentioned being into Raw Deal...when I look at what is happening in UFS right now, I can't help but be reminded of the events that killed that game. It is not a case of history repeating exactly, but I see certain parallels there.

aslum said:

You bring up a good point. The issue at hand was the lack of promotion of miniblock pre-Gencon. The feedback of miniblock didn't reflect the promotion of FFG. This brings up a problem of sort. It was the players who brought this issue to light. Second the company had an idea and didn't back it. That is common gripe among just about all players. The communication element being lackluster as well as the promotion element. Thing is it wouldn't have been a problem to make it so that X amount of games a rotation are miniblock. Miniblock announcement happened in July yet there isn't an option for it when you are creating OP tournaments. I know there is limited man power and other games so on and so forth. The issue is that there has to be more work done on FFG end. The simple thing of set posters for their own IP would have been an easy thing to do but it didn't happen. Things like this make the game have more presence and players.

But we don't know the limitations on FFG budget for UFS and how many people are actually on the UFS team. So at the same end certain things aren't being done because man power doesn't afford it.

kraazivaan said:

All I have to say is for players like yourselves you have options. The first option is to get a coolstuff account and buy singles there. Over time you get discounts the more you spend. Next go in with a friend and buy a box like Antigoth said. I have friends of mine who bought a box and game me rares so I could build Zhao Daiyu. I got good friends who do that. Maybe that is what your community needs is less hoarding and more communial support. I'm buying some cards now and I'm getting cards for my friends.

You point out that you saw nothing wrong with the previous format. For your community nothing has to change. Just play with your house rules that it is B3. That is all. Communities are only shutting down because they jumped the gun and overreacted. If City and Store championships were that valuable to you then you will play miniblock anyway.

You bring up a good point in some of your post that you don't have hardly any of the new cards and they didn't really stand out. That is the issue. The miniblock cards do not compete at all with the old cards. That is why rotation happened. I played my friends Ivy chain of death deck with a half assed death deck I made with Zhao Daiyo as the main character. I threw in b3 cards and not even half of her support. I stomped my friend bad. I just canceled and blew up anything he did with no cost to me. I invested in a lot of 4 star cards because I saw the same thing you saw. The 5 star cards are weak only in comparision to everything that came before it. But eventually to stay in the game a person would have to buy those cards once b4 would have naturally rolled around. So the only thing I see is that people like yourself were waiting to see if trends would continue as they were or just cherry pick the best symbols and go from there. If that is the case those are still options and they require less investment. You just can't visit "some" other communites and play. That is it. No other loss is given to you or your play group at all.

The only thing that upsets me about this rotation is I just wasted money on a Fight Night Kit, it feels like FFG was just trying to find a way to cheat players out of their money. I'd like to get my money back for being ripped off like that.

I do not play Legacy, and I'm not sure why people still do. It is not a supported format, it has one tournament a year. All of the Major tournaments are Standard, so all of Legacy matches you play do nothing to prepare you for standard. My players do not want to play Legacy, so we don't run it. All these people keep saying "play Legacy", but think about what your saying. For us to feel not screwed over by FFG and use cards that they have now made worthless to us, we have to play a format that doesn't matter and isn't supported? Your "Play Legacy" argument is a little short sighted.

Now, I am interested to see where this "Reset" will take us. It sucks that Tekken didn't come out when it should have, so we have one less set then if it were a normal year with a normal release schedule. But even with a tremendously limited card pool, it shows some promise. Now just get us STreet Fighter back into the game, and we'll be great.

On a last note, why are people still calling it Mini-Block... that concept doesn't exist anymore, it has just become Standard now.