My friend Brian has suggested the RT characters are not really 5,000 points. Has anyone else had cause to question this? My opinion is that the scale of the character's actions are different. DH characters do not affect entire ships, they aren't part of the "Nobility" of a starship. They're just guys who dress funny. Very skilled, very shooty/choppy, but just a bunch of guys.

This difference of "scale of action" makes a lot of sense to me, but he can't quite see it.

Perhaps he thinks them underpowered for the roles they are expected to take... I dunno.

I would for sure say that they are equivilent to a DH character that has spent 5,000 xp. As you said, DH characters, with maybe the exception of a high ranking inquisitor, have nowhere near the power and influence of a RT character, they may be better at killing, but they don't have the resources. A RT could buy alost anything he wants. A Rogue Trader and his/her counselers are suppost to be very influencial and powerful, more so then even a planetary govenor or high ranking military official. They are given a power none other have, to leave the imperium and spread the word of the Emperor God to the heathens beyond. Because of this, they are givin the power to bring the law of the imperium beyond it's bounds, ruling entire systems in the name of the God Emperor (and greed sometimes) if they so chose.

I guess the best way to find out is to put a level 1 RT against a beginning DH character and see how they compare.

dragonmarkeddm said:

I was told that the 5000 XP mark was determined / validated by a number of death matches between rogue trader characters and DH characters during play test.

Plus let's not forget that RT character stats start out as 2d10+25 instead of +20. That's like a free Simple advance in everything. Close to 3000 xp right there.

aethel said:

Let’s not forget that if you don’t have the book from GenCon or have not seen one you don’t know this.

I'm pretty sure the 5,000 number is not a "let's do deathmatches" number, nor a "well scope is bigger so they should be higher number" (of course not having talking to the designers I could be wrong about this)

I haven't sat down and thoroughly done the math, but in looking at the careers and character creation sections briefly I'd say the 5,000 number comes purely from the stats and abilities of the characters.

For one thing, as far as the static starting packages we're actually talking about 4,500 XP, the other 500 is starting XP that the player gets to spend.

As Aethel mentioned, the baseline for characteristics is 25 + 2d10 rather than the 20 + 2d10 of DH characters. So essentially they have what equates to a free advance. [the only problem I have with this is that RT characters can still take 4 advances on top of this giving a higher top end, but maybe Ascension will fix this by allowing high end DH characters to take a 5th advance] Using simple advance costs this generally comes out to 2,400 to 3,000 XP or so depending on career.

Additionally, while RT characters don't necessarily start with numerically more talents than DH characters, the starting talents tend to be more expensive talents. For example the: Weapon Training (Universal) talents include primitive, bolt, SP, las, launcher, melta, and plasma talents for that category of weapons (i.e. pistol/basic/thrown). As such those talents are generally around 500 xp each. Many of the careers have 2-3 of those high cost talents.

RT psykers start at Psy Rating 2 instead of 1

High cost talents and skills and other traits cover the balance of the 4,500 after accounting for the blanket characteristic boost.

So the 5,000 number is pretty much on the mark.

Also one must remember that RT characters starting at 5,000 isn't because they are somehow intrinsically better than DH characters. It is just that the starting point for each game is at a different point in the character's adventuring life.

DH characters start at 400 XP because they are just stepping out of their normal roles and into the larger universe. Characters in Rogue Trader careers have already had to go through a long road of experience before getting to the starting point of their career. You can come directly out of basic training and be a guardsman, you can't walk out of boot camp ready to be an Arch-Militant.

So the 5,000 XP is appropriate for narrative reasons as well as mechanical. DH starting characters are individuals just special enough to catch the Inquisition's eye. RT starting characters are hardened veterans preparing for the next step.

ItsUncertainWho said:

That is why it is incumbent on those of us who have seen the book to share this kind of knowledge.

aethel said:

Really?

Hmm, that doesn't sound very good. Seems to be a bit too combat oriented approach in determine what power level should be used.

But I'll just wait and see. Everything else about Rogue Trader seems to be great, so my innate scepticism towards... well pretty much everything, will have to be put in the sock drawer for the time being.

Besides, I figure RT will have so much time spent aboard ships that no matter how good you might be in standard combat, it won't really matter when lance batteries start bombarding vessels.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I would assume one also wouldn't know about the 5000 points to pose the question in the first place...

But regardless, as DocIII said, we're trying to be helpful and share.

And DocIII, Ross actually did say at a panel that they really did test that number out with Death Matches.

If that's what Ross said, I'm sure not going to argue.

The obvious question is: Since the games are "compatible" (and looking at the character sheet, they look it) how do I use DH classes in RT? Do I simply give them 5000xp? Will he/she be the equivalent to a starting RT character?

What about future advancements? If my player likes a DH class, will he be gimped using it over the RT classes?

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Also the reverse...

I am starting a new RT campaign, but my character is a Rogue Trader in my group's other GM's DH game. I planned on converting him over since I'm winging the character progression right now. So far, my character (fairly new) has gained about 3500xp...which apparently doesn't cover the RT's starting 5000... I'm screwed. I've basically played that character all this time for nothing but the joy of having a painted miniature to represent him...

sob....

There's a sidebar about exactly how to port characters between the two, but essentially yes, you make a DH character with 5k XP, and that's a starting RT character.

From what I've seen, I don't really thinking using a DH class would "gimp" you. I'd almost go as far as to say the DH classes are more person to person combat oriented than many of the RT classes. At least, in an XP progression they are likely to get things like lightning attack and other crunch-central talents sooner than many of the RT classes. (Though they won't get the cool class-specific trait that the RT classes come with.)

That said, you'd certainly have to put some forethought into what your role in ship battles would be. Pretty much all the RT classes get at least one or two skills that are very useful in ship to ship combat. I don't know if it works out that way with DH classes, but if it does, it is certainly not by design. But, I'm sure a thoughtful GM can handle it with elite advances.

Thanks, aethel.

I'm looking forward to the ship battles, but I'm sure there will be plenty of "Dirtside" adventures in my group's future.

aethel said:

Yep, the question was directly answered by Ross at the seminar he gave on Friday.

Directly from the book, "For each, roll 2d10, added the resulting numbers together, then add 25." (RT, page 14)... I hadn't even noticed this level advance in all the characteristics myself. Combine that with bonuses from a chosen Homeworld, Birthright, Lure of the Void, Trials and Travails and Motivations (all part of the starting character Origin Path) and that is a lot of starting features.

Each class in RT starts with about 10 skills, 3-5 Talents, and amazing starting gear, like Arch-Militant who starts with "Good-Craftsmanship hellgun or best-Craftsmanship hunting rifle or 2 bolt pistols, plus. . . " (RT, page 45) Oh, and a space ship!

-Cynr

aethel said:

In point of fact, I will have an answer for this in approximately two more weeks, give or take a few days.

TS Luikart said:

Intriguing. Look forward to seeing the details.

Which begs the question, what are these class specific traits? Any chance you can enlighten those of us who are stuck waiting 'till October or so before we will have the book in our hands?

Graver said:

Each RT class gets one special ability. Many of them are particularly cool because they make one character of the same class different than another. Now that you know which special abilities to look for, go back into the characters released for the demo adventures and you can see the exact mechanics on most of these.

Rogue Traders can add to someone else's roll.

Arch Militants have the ability to be extra cool with one weapon

Astropaths are soulbound and start with psy rating 2

Explorators start with implants

Missionary starts with pure faith

Navigators have navigator powers

Senschal: Seeker of lore (see sample character)

Void Master can pick from one of four that makes him better at piloting big craft, small craft, shooting, or sensors.

My players have no problem at all with any other aspect of the book... it's lovely and detailed and will be a core product for me for years.

I see the career special abilities you're talking about on the sample characters in Forsaken Bounty, however I do not see them anywhere in the RT book.

(Other than Psy rating for astropaths, pure faith for missionary, navigator, and implants for tech priest - which are in their starting skills/talents box)

These other "special abilities" seem to be something from the pre-finished rules set, or I'm just missing them somehow.

The last page of the Career Path chapter has a list of special career abilities

Yeah, I just found it right after I asked.

Thanks.

It took me a while to find it too the first time I read through the book. The placement of that page does seem off. I would have liked to have seen it before the detailed careers.

Ah jolly good stuff to hear. I really like the whole concept of group dynamics. Well, I just an not wait for my copy.

As discussed at length above, the 5,000 XP number for starting RT characters certainly seems to work as intended. However my players brought up a point that hadn't occured to me.

What about the point balance as characters advance? My players were quick to point out that many of the talents their DH characters could get for 100 xp, the equivalent RT character had to pay 500 xp for. After looking at the Arch-Militant my guardsman player said he'd much rather be a 10,000 xp point Guardsman than a 10,000 XP Arch-Militant, because he could get most of the some combat talent at 1/5 of the cost. So the question I'm looking at now (particularly as I am considering a hybrid campaign) is how well RT and DH characters scale compared to one another after the 5,000 point mark.

Any ideas?