Suggestion for Deathwatch Collectors Edition

By hellebore2, in Rogue Trader

Posted at

Psion said:

But my main problem is not so much with their possible inclusion, instead I'm wondering about something that is unarguably intergral to their lore, "And they shall know no fear." How do you scare players who stuck themselves into the armored overshoes of people who are not supposed to have fear, have doubts in their abilities? That is one question I have yet to someone answer to my satisfaction, where would the element of doubt, of uncertainity, that is important to all good roleplaying.

Horrible, unsubstantiated predictions:

-"Haha, battle-brother. Just look at the size of my power armoured d*ck. It's enormous!"

-"Indeed, battle-brother. It is as enormous as my power armoured d*ck."

-"As is mine, fellow battle-brothers!

-"Yes."

-"Quite."

-"mhm"

-"And with our enormous power armoured d*cks, we shall conquer the entire galaxy, and smite every enemy we encounter along the way!"

-"Indeed."

-"Quite."

-"But first, let's just gaze in awe at our enormous power armoured d*cks."

-"Good idea battle-brother!"

-"Indeed it is, battle-brother."

(The horror... Oh the horror preocupado.gif )

Posted at

How about just using steel plates for the covers, with the Aquilla stamped in?

Posted at

DocIII said:

Terminus_Est said:

That is what I mean as a joke about semantics. He was plainly stating Marines are Marines and are never inquisitors, he just did not correct the person fully ;)

Marines are NEVER Inquisitors? Says who?

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines.

Now granted over the years GW has put out several alternate origins of the =][=, but still...

It has been mentioned in a few places that Space Marines can't be inquisitors.

This thread also has several reasons why this might be: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171103

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MILLANDSON said:

DocIII said:

Terminus_Est said:

That is what I mean as a joke about semantics. He was plainly stating Marines are Marines and are never inquisitors, he just did not correct the person fully ;)

Marines are NEVER Inquisitors? Says who?

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines.

Now granted over the years GW has put out several alternate origins of the =][=, but still...

It has been mentioned in a few places that Space Marines can't be inquisitors.

This thread also has several reasons why this might be: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171103

Read your Warseer thread. Every place I saw there that said SM CAN'T ever be inquisitors was opinion of forum posters unsubstantiated by any authority.

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DocIII said:

Read your Warseer thread. Every place I saw there that said SM CAN'T ever be inquisitors was opinion of forum posters unsubstantiated by any authority.

The matter is simple to work through. Firstly, have you ever seen, in an official publication, a Space Marine Inquisitor? Nathaniel Garro and Iacton Qruze don't count, because A: the Inquisition didn't exist as of the end of Flight of the Eisenstein and their ties to its foundation are entirely speculative (it has never been stated by any official source) at this point, and B: it is as likely that they would have been the origin of the Grey Knights rather than the first Inquisitors.

Is the answer no? Thought so.

Now, while it's difficult to make absolute statements for 40k, it isn't impossible, I will give you that... but there is one notion that should always be considered when assuming the unprecedented - just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you should.

My response to the question "are there Space Marine Inquisitors"? If there are, I've never seen them, and consequently if they exist they're so rare as to be entirely unheard of.

Which, in an organisation as justifiably paranoid and relatively small in membership as the Inquisition, seems extremely telling, as far as I'm concerned.

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There have been multiple rewrites and MArines have always worked with the inquisition and some may have been or have lots of sway in it such as Battle Brother Captain Stern. However MArines are somewhat restricted and their roles are fairly limitted, afterall its what they are bred for. Also MArines also don't quite worship the Emperor the same way...

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I have no issue with ideas and speculation and rational argument.

As Nathan has said he finds the idea very unlikely and he says why. I have no problem with that.

I just have issues when folks make absolute ALWAYS and NEVER statements without backing them up with any source.

Posted at

DocIII said:

I just have issues when folks make absolute ALWAYS and NEVER statements without backing them up with any source.

You mean like someone who says:

DocIII said:

One of the GW origin stories for the =][= has two out of the three original inquisitors being space marines.

with no proof?

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

DocIII said:

Read your Warseer thread. Every place I saw there that said SM CAN'T ever be inquisitors was opinion of forum posters unsubstantiated by any authority.

The matter is simple to work through. Firstly, have you ever seen, in an official publication, a Space Marine Inquisitor? Nathaniel Garro and Iacton Qruze don't count, because A: the Inquisition didn't exist as of the end of Flight of the Eisenstein and their ties to its foundation are entirely speculative (it has never been stated by any official source) at this point, and B: it is as likely that they would have been the origin of the Grey Knights rather than the first Inquisitors.

Is the answer no? Thought so.

Now, while it's difficult to make absolute statements for 40k, it isn't impossible, I will give you that... but there is one notion that should always be considered when assuming the unprecedented - just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you should.

My response to the question "are there Space Marine Inquisitors"? If there are, I've never seen them, and consequently if they exist they're so rare as to be entirely unheard of.

Which, in an organisation as justifiably paranoid and relatively small in membership as the Inquisition, seems extremely telling, as far as I'm concerned.

That's pretty much my point.

Also, you say that no authority says they don't exist..... why would GW spend time telling us about stuff that doesn't exist?

Also, technically speaking, the burden of proof is on you to prove they exist, rather than us prove otherwise.

Posted at

No, the burden of proof lies with those who set absolutes with no source. I never said they did exist, all I said was that to my knowledge no official source said they COULD NEVER exist. Since I've never tried to posit that marine inquisitors DO exist, there is nothing for me to prove.

As Nathan said, the story with the two marines and the founding (or not) of the Inquisition could be (and has been apparently) interpreted several ways. Again, I have no problem with that. Even if it were to be interpreted as marines as some of first inquisitors it is only one of several versions of the beginning of the Inquisition presented by GW, and as such is again not an absolute.

My only problem is with those why preclude the ideas of others without any basis to back it up beyond because I (or some collection of forumites) said so.

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Having it in a metalic case is a good Idea IMO. Design the case so as to look similar to the Ceramite cases on the Grey Knights marine armor, with the book having an old style locking latch so you need some type of key to open it. And the cover of the book as well as the outer cover of the case being the same design would add to the over all feel of the thing as well.

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T-800 said:

Having it in a metalic case is a good Idea IMO. Design the case so as to look similar to the Ceramite cases on the Grey Knights marine armor, with the book having an old style locking latch so you need some type of key to open it. And the cover of the book as well as the outer cover of the case being the same design would add to the over all feel of the thing as well.

Thanks for dragging us back on topic

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Psion said:

Maxim C. Gatling said:

I really don't see Deathwatch as a stand-alone (role playing) game. It would just be a series of kill-team missions using other-than-40k rules. As an addition to DH, it's a fine idea.

I am also not quite convinced Deathwatch will have the same broad level of role-playing options the other two games have. Granted there will be something for scholars and AdMech players (probably as Librians and Tech-Marines) to do inbetween battles but it would still be missing the social, investigative, and inflitration aspects of Dark Heresy. Not saying fighting isn't fun; but if you make a campaign (or game for that matter) too combat-focused it can end up feeling a little flat.

Again, there is the possiblity FFG can prove me wrong but I will not be really satisfied until I hear the offical word.

What would convince me that Deathwatch would make a good Stand-Alone would be a good fluff novel. However, there have been many good fluff novels involving Astartes but none of them looked like RPG material.

But it doesn't make sense, really. Deathwatch is run by the Inquisition. And Ordo Xenos at that. They're not an organization unto themselves. Grey Knights at least are their own Chapter, but take marching orders from Ordo Malleus. (Deathwatch is made of Marines from all different Chapters, which is really cool if you like to paint miniatures).

What I think would be great (and it'd still be a big, thick book which they could Collector's Edition) is Deathwatch AND Grey Knight rules as a Dark Heresy add-on. And post-Ascension , so that the other DH characters aren't rag-dolls in comparison to the Astartes.

If anyone disagrees, then explain how DW would make a good stand-alone RPG. Don't bag me for being a nay-sayer, I'm just not seeing it.

Posted at

For what little its might add to the discussion regarding the autonomy of the Deathwatch, I read some random bit of fluff today from the old Inquisitor line. It said that deathwatch teams were mostly under the command of Ordo Xeno's inquisitors, but in some circumstances, an individual squad or war-band would be permanently put under the command of a marine with the rank of captain or higher. This was the origin of the Brother Captain Stern model, who stood in as an Inquisitor and leader of his own warband/band of acolytes. It also talks about him ordering an exterminatus by cyclonic torpedo bombardment. If he's not an Inquisitor, then it is by name only.

I don'tt usually cite fluff as precedent for a certain interpretation of the setting, but I thought this little nugget might Illuminate the above discussion. For what its worth, I don't think Marines should be Inquisitors, as they have enough on their plate already and they are furthermore not entirely trusted by the Inquisition (or entirely human, for that matter). But if one wanted a Deathwatch Inquisitor to be a Brother Captain, it would seem there is some precedent.

I think a metallic-looking null-box with a lock and key would make for a very attractive CE. It would be heavily built and with rivets along the seams. It would also have the deathwatch symbol stamped on the front. The leather rule-book within should be textured like stitched-together xeno-hides.

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Nullius said:

I think a metallic-looking null-box with a lock and key would make for a very attractive CE. It would be heavily built and with rivets along the seams. It would also have the deathwatch symbol stamped on the front. The leather rule-book within should be textured like stitched-together xeno-hides.

I like the sound of that. However instead of having a "metallic-looking" box, why not have this thick tome of stitched xenos leather, we could have REAL metallic chains wrapped around the book with an ornate looking working padlock and key for it. Of course decorated with purity seals and other such paraphernalia.

I seem to recall a few models from WH40K that lug's around books wrapped up in chains and locks. Would look kinda cool for for the real thing. happy.gif

Posted at

Maxim C. Gatling said:

Psion said:

Maxim C. Gatling said:

I really don't see Deathwatch as a stand-alone (role playing) game. It would just be a series of kill-team missions using other-than-40k rules. As an addition to DH, it's a fine idea.

I am also not quite convinced Deathwatch will have the same broad level of role-playing options the other two games have. Granted there will be something for scholars and AdMech players (probably as Librians and Tech-Marines) to do inbetween battles but it would still be missing the social, investigative, and inflitration aspects of Dark Heresy. Not saying fighting isn't fun; but if you make a campaign (or game for that matter) too combat-focused it can end up feeling a little flat.

Again, there is the possiblity FFG can prove me wrong but I will not be really satisfied until I hear the offical word.

What would convince me that Deathwatch would make a good Stand-Alone would be a good fluff novel. However, there have been many good fluff novels involving Astartes but none of them looked like RPG material.

But it doesn't make sense, really. Deathwatch is run by the Inquisition. And Ordo Xenos at that. They're not an organization unto themselves. Grey Knights at least are their own Chapter, but take marching orders from Ordo Malleus. (Deathwatch is made of Marines from all different Chapters, which is really cool if you like to paint miniatures).

What I think would be great (and it'd still be a big, thick book which they could Collector's Edition) is Deathwatch AND Grey Knight rules as a Dark Heresy add-on. And post-Ascension , so that the other DH characters aren't rag-dolls in comparison to the Astartes.

If anyone disagrees, then explain how DW would make a good stand-alone RPG. Don't bag me for being a nay-sayer, I'm just not seeing it.

It all depends I guess on how you feel about military themed RPGs. I have over the years played in several excellent and role-play heavy war/military themed games. Three that spring to mind were a long running Recon (palladium's vietnam/cold war mercenaries RPG) game; a cyberpunk chrome berets/special-ops-team game; and a GURPS scifi game in which the characters started as penal troopers in a glactic war.

All were both combat and RP heavy, and more sophisticated than one would expect (especially the Recon game where things got really strange operating in enemy territory with odd and sometimes contradictory orders coming down the chain, heavy RP regarding morally questionable orders and actions).

I feel Deathwatch has all the potential for a sucessful stand alone RPG as any military-scifi game. I guess it all comes down to taste and style.