DeathFromAbove said:

Well, I guess it's just me. I'm "used to" having to pay $40-60 for a single rulebook, and boardgames/PC games/XBox games are closer to $50-$70 nowadays. So, near $100 for 3e, with all the stuff it includes, seems the right price.

Granted, if you don't want to use most of the stuff in the box, then you probably won't get as great a value for your money. It isn't worth it for your needs. I'm just pointing out that the price is justified by the contents. If you are going to use (or attempt to use) the tools they give you, then it seems well worth it.

What about at a $62 price, like Amazon is posting? Is that more worthwhile for you? I'm sure you can find some other places selling it near as cheap as Amazon too. If those are still too high, then you might want to wait until people parcel it out on Ebay and just buy the pieces you want, although expect the total cost to come close to what you'd pay for the entire box.

Regardless, it has no impact on how good a game 3e will be, nor whether of not the list price is reasonable for what it provides.

Well, everybody who have seen my posts know I love the new system. I decided to back off since on these boards it seems the haters right now outshine those who welcome the changes (be it with open arms or not). But Dvang made some good points here, so I had to respond. The big one of those being for me, there is so much hatred from the game seeping over on this forum (you can hardly read one post without ending up in some form of bash-a-thon over the new system) I just want to make sure that those who are actually excited don't end up here and go, oh...I guess there is nothing to really be excited about.

Anyway, onto the points:

Price Point:

100 Bucks. Seriously, the three 4e cores come out to 104 dollars. Now, some of us may already own dice, but if you don't, then you're dropping another roughly 10 USD on ONE set of dice (the caps aren't screaming, just emphasizing), so you're looking at 114. Of course, if you went out to buy 36 dice (which you get in the warhammer core) you're talking roughly 134 dollars. So no, the price point may be steep, and I know some people may have to save, but in the end, you're getting your money's worth since you basically get the PHB, DMG, MM, and dice all in one box.

Also, players don't have to buy the box set. As they explain, it's enough for THREE PLAYERS to use. More can use it as well, but they'll have to share components. So if the argument is the GM has to pay for everything, comparing it to the price point of 4e, Warhammer is roughly the same cost on the GM. The only thing players may want to pick up are some dice, but twenty bucks for two dice packs is not horrible. Also, the money spent can keep a company making more role-playing games. Not to rehash, but the fact players don't buy anything is one reason the role-playing market is dying. It is easy to say roleplaying games have no market or to look at the facts that roughly 3 out of every four people in that market aren't spending any money on RPGS. This creates the illusion that RPGS are a dying breed. If you look, Wargame miniatures are on a steady increase. Why? Well, in order to play, everyone committed to the game has to buy product (in general...sure you can tell me about your friend so and so or how your specific group shares armies or whatever, but the fact is, in general, everybody buys tabletop games who plays them, everybody buys video games who play them, but that is not the case with RPGS. Which would you and your players like to see, a world without RPGS, or a world where everybody has to fork up some cash to play the games they enjoy so companies will still view them as profitable and continue to buy them?)

Last point on this, it may keep people out of buying the game, but why on earth is that a blow to how much you enjoy it or if it's a worthwhile game? Seriously, can someone answer that question for me? I hear about it all the time? So it may excludes some...well that's up to FFG to rectify, not me, but it has nothing to do with how great of a game it WILL be (again not screaming, just emphasizing).

commoner said:

Came on... the Gifted Set is $66 (or lower).

www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Core-Rulebook-Gift/dp/0786950633/ref=sr_1_1

What we are talking about...

Accept that WFRP 3rd is a bit expensive and cut on this one.

dvang said:

To me, the price seems also right, considering all that comes in the box and, considering this is going to be a game with groundbreaking mechanics I'm sure the box will be sold for much more in 2-3 years, when it's out of print...

I'm quite sure it will become a collector's item, just like Tome of Corruption, Children of the Horned Rat or Thousand Thrones (check their prices in the Internet and you'll know what I mean)... even the core WFRP2 book is sold for a good price nowadays...

DeathFromAbove said:

Sometimes you make it too easy to refute your arguments. You are pointing to a collection of books that has been already available for almost one year, so it's normal you get them now for a discount... but the original price was 104$... Also, Wizards prints bigger editions than FFG for D&D (which is reasonable) so it is normal that at some point you get a discount.

Now, if I remember well, I paid for my Tome of Corruption something like 25€, which is approximately 35$. I bought it from Amazon.de at a 15% discount more or less... Now try to find that book for less than 40$... I'm quite sure a similar thing will happen with WFRP3.

commoner said:

I agree with your post, and I think this is also a reason why most RPG publishing companies only publish the core book of an RPG and little more.

Still, there are a lot of RPGs out there, so maybe this fragmentation is another reason that adds to the illusion of RPG being a dying market... It's more about players not being able to find groups to play the RPG they like than lack of options.

Yeah, ok, price is price. Same more or less overall for both games to have "complete" set enough to run a campaign.

But what will the page count comparison be?

Is it four slim books and a bunch of special dice and cards against four big books or what?

And none of this has any real effect on the quality of the game mechanics or its enjoyability, just the prospect of it selling well.

After I play in a session of a game Ive never played before, based on my interests I may be willing to sink $30-$50 into the core rule book, but $100 is stretching it a bit.

Its a wait and see game I suppose.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Wait, didn't you see the link to Amazon for $62 and free shipping?

Here it is again:

www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Core-Set/dp/1589946960/ref=sr_1_1

Peacekeeper_b said:

you missed some of the cost there, it would be upwards of $110 US basic.....plus your mini, plus dice plus players handbook 2 and yes you need it lol it ALWAYS has good information like....new classes/races its a must for real DnD players.....and the DM always needs the monster manual....are you kidding me!?! and i have many players that play other games and want there own copy.....if they only played at my game...sure why get a copy but 4-5 guys play others games.... "But a bunch of aids that you DONT NEED!" ........you basicly said it....they are aids.....there for optional..you might not want them....but some people do

app.fantasyflightgames.com/wfrp-prerelease-signup.html

I've sent an email to my FLGS about participating, and I've offered to GM a few of the demo games. It's very likely they will, and I will ... so think up questions now and I'll try to answer some of them once this event rolls around in mid-November. (I'll remind everyone closer to the event).

It looks like 2 of the WFRP books about equals one of the D&D books, from what I can tell. Of course, WFRP has lots of other stuff that it comes with. (Note that there's still stuff in the box, not all the stuff is out and on display too)

Alright, got a free moment to keep on slogging through this list (not an insult, just lengthy and lots to consider).

Too Many Bits

Honestly, it's hard to dispute or say how much area will be required. I can agree that yes, more than likely, more room will be needed...so much more...I don't necessarily know...and nobody really does because no-one except the dev's and a key handful of people and the playtesters have played it yet. I also have played many a miniatures game on a four foot by eight foot table in a one bedroom apartment. And this was Warmachine, so the side board is very important and utilizes a number of cards and chippies (there were also two cats in the house) and we had no trouble at all playing the game. Sure it was cramped, but the game was still fun. These replies make it sound like you're going to need an entire airport terminal to play in, but fact is, if you have a living room, a dining room table and not twelve gamers jammed around it, I'm sure you'll figure out the space issue just fine. If not enough room for the play area, then maybe try folding the character sheet in half. Instead of a sheet, you would then have a character pamphlet. It is landscaped after all so folding it in half won't lose any information. (Of course if you did, then there would be a ridiculously long lists of complaints highlighting how a pamphlet is clearly inferior to the tried and tested character sheet and how its a cardinal sin to change something that was already perfect...the unfolded character sheet).

In a further point, I don't see Halo players complaining about the versus modes using networked Xboxes and TV's saying the feature should not have been included because there isn't enough room to set up multiple TV's and multiple Xbox's in their gaming space. I also know lots of miniature gamers who make due with the space they do have...and I know for a fact when GW wrote Apocalypse space issues for their players did not prevent them from writing it nor the thousands of fans who play it never really complained about the space issue for their 100,000 point games. They used the floor, they used garages, they used what they could find.

Honestly, The space argument seems more knit-picky than anything else and a way to argue against the game for arguments sake. Not enough room? Adjust your play-space and your play room to make the necessary space (unless you game in a closet, then I might suggest coming out of the closet before even setting up to play any game).

Now as to these "vital components" being lost. Well, saying they could get lost is like saying, "the book could get set on fire, so why don't you use the tried and tested system of setting all core manuals in metal plates." Seriously, it is. Saying a soda will spill on them is like saying a "soda could spill on my book so laminate the metal plates so there is no rusting possible." Saying you could lose vital pieces, well, I play 15mm wargames as well and I've never lost a single piece. I play Arkham in all of its chippie, card, bananza and have yet to lose a single piece and we play the hell out of that game as well. Anything related to gaming could get lost, damaged or stolen, including those all-powerful, magnificent, glorious books people keep railing on about. Heck, anything you ever buy in your life can get lost, damaged or stolen.

You could say there is less of a chance, but really, is there? Compared to miniature gaming? You're wedding ring? A Pin Drive? An Ipod? You're gaming book? All could meet with an ill fate at any moment in time and I heavily doubt the potential of an IPOD getting lost, damaged or stolen has prevented them from buying a portable MP3 player, settling instead, to strap their Hard Drive and a portable battery pack to their back and carrying it around just because it has less chances, because it's so big and in a sturdier case thereby preventing it from being lost, damaged, or stolen.

And I'd rather have one card lost, damaged, or stolen then my entire manual.

Again, I feel this argument against the game isn't so much a valid point against it but is simply an argument for arguments sake against 3e. It really offers nothing for or against, or even remotely critical of the game itself, it's just a way, a small way, to bash a good idea.

Don't lose it, and it won't get lost. Heck, I've even gamed at GW stores and left my mini's on the table while I went to the bathroom, had a smoke, and they never got lost, damaged or stolen.

NezziR said:

Thanks for the link, Nezzir. Seeing this price, I decided to preorder.

I live in Euroland, so the price for me will be 70$ (63 plus 7 shipping). That's a bit less than 50€, and just so that some people know what can be done in Europe with that money I'll give some examples:

1. Last weekend I went with my wife and a friend to see UP in 3D (very nice movie, btw). Tickets were 11€ each, so adding 3 beers and some popcorn we spent, between the 3 of us, around 50€ (33€ cinema, 10€ beers, 6€ popcorn).

2. It is very difficult to find a nice restaurant where you'll pay less than 20€ per person to eat "à la carte", so if I want to impress my ex-girlfriend (now wife) I usually have to dish out at least 40€, with wine it will be at least 50€, and that for a normal restaurant...

3. I recently bought all episodes of Battlestar Galactica for a great price. They cost me around 50€ at a hefty discount (again from Amazon). That's around 50 hours of entertainment for me and my wife... probably the closest thing to the price/time relationship of WFRP3.

And I could go on giving more examples, but don't want to bore people to death with petty economics... I don't think price is the issue here... The issue is some people feeling betrayed because FFG and GW don't go on with WFRP2... I feel it can be a reasonable feeling, but at some point most of them will pass the "outrage stage" and give the game a fair chance... for my playing group, it's playing time!... I'm starting with them in a couple weeks with an scenario using WFRP2 rules to start getting in the mood... If WFRP3 ends up being a failure, we can always go back to WFRP2.

Peacekeeper_b said:

So a page count equals a better value. So you're saying War and Peace which costs the same as Fight Club is more worth your money then? You're telling me that a great deal of Romance novels are more valuable than The Stranger by Camus? No, seriously, same dollar cost...if price = size which = quality (or enjoyability as you put it) then the same measure must be applied to everything in the printing/publishing business. Yes, this also means all punk albums which have upwards to twenty three tracks are more enjoyable and therefore better than any album with less tracks. A Brittany Spears CD which has 13 tracks and costs just as much as the London Symphony playing Mozart (which only has three-five tracks) is way, way, way more value because of the additional tracks.

See my point?

Actually, the cards and dice have a direct effect on game mechanics and enjoyability. One, you don't have to reference the book mid play. Sure, you could have written what that special ability does on the character sheet, or your twenty spells down on a spell sheet, but most players, in my experience, don't. As I pointed out in a previous thread the dice do add to playability offering a great deal more than a simple success or fail option. Instead, they offer a broad range of descriptions, offering a way to gauge degree of success and failure with absolute accuracy and ease of interpretation. This can offer a massive range of role-playing/story opportunities that will greatly enhance a game. Of course, if you want simple success/failure, the mechanic is still there. Just roll 1 success, which does set it far apart from any other dice pool mechanic. I went on and on about this in the "Locking of a certain Thread" thread, but you never replied there about my points on the system, so I suspect you have chosen to ignore them because they don't help your campaign-of-hate or that you know, somewhere, that what I'm talking about, what Jays talking about, is right. They will enhance gameplay in their own way. Sure, I'll give you its not as easy as roll above, roll below, but I'll take the loss of a little ease to play around with story in a way gaming has never really permitted before with such a clear-cut system.

Of course, that's a matter of preference and you've already stated you don't like dice pools, so of course, you wouldn't react fondly to the change either.

I agree 100 bucks is stretching it, but after reviewing the actual product several times from the posts and the designer threads, it seems sound. I've bought a number of FFG games, and I've never felt ripped off by the price point. They seem to be very good about it overall. You also have to remember, that buying the same number of dice from chessex is roughly 33 bucks on average (after taking the base cost of opaque dice, adding it to the cost of a signature set, then dividing by 2). So if you really look at it, on average, the actual set costs 77 USD, with 33 USD worth of dice thrown in on top of it at retail price. Sure, it's cheaper for them, but they do want to make money so they can keep making good products.

I agree you should wait and see, but are you? It seems to me that "wish to see it die" is a far stretch from "wait and see".

i have played 2ed and fell in love with the story i just wish i got into it sooner to understand the story line.

PRICE POINT & TOO MANY BITS

I have played v2 and dnd version 3-4 im one of those people that love the idea for cards and hand outs and such they give the players more of a sence of felling that tthey own something. i still have the books to beat people and to tell off rules monkeys. i hate looking things up it boggs it down and kill characters. its probly the main reason why i dont like playing casters. $100 if it anit nothing its cheap for what i get i could buy sleeves or scan them in and the problem of them missing is delt with. its all there you dont need to buy anything else except for dice but who doesnt. hell i bought the big wow game and i bought 30 d8s just so my players could play it to at lease they diddnt have to pass the dice around. its ffg thats where they make their money on little bits and dice. and its thats they only thing holding you back just buy more. i spend as much on sleeves as much as the game its self and its only been played three times and im happy i bought it.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

i want to try new systems all the time. i cant stand playing the same system all the time it gets borimg. i liked v2 but i hate useing percentle why not use a d10 too much useless numbers.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

the setting is what you make of it. high, low, grity, sandy,just have a dring and relax

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

make your own up go read books and not rely on what other people have created.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

not much to say about this except wheres are demo Jay. i want to know how it works. be fore i get it as my birthday gift.

to all the whiners and trolls go back your cave becuase your getting left behind any way. just accept the fact and move on and try something new. or create your own game. really folks do we need this. no we dont. this just a phase it happen. im going to buy it becuase of the: story, build quality, the companys, and the joy of a new game just the time ill spend reading and having fun. now if only mr banhammer would do its job id be happy either way.

thank you

mcdead said:

I Couldn't agree more with you - and I've been playing since 1st edition - i played my first games at the age of about 16 (i'm now 30) and it's been the one game i've come back to again and again. Even being lucky enough to playtest 2nd edition when that was in the design phase.

the new dice system is a stroke of genius - using dice not only as a tool to determine success or failure. but also as a narrative aid - i've been designing dice systems for rpgs (as a hobby) for about 10 years, not to mention playing as many different game systems as i could afford to get my hands on, and that's one of the best idea's for a core dice mechanic i've ever seen (and i've seen and designed a lot).

Another point, as i mentioned I was a playtester for WFRP2e and also Dark Heresy, in the early days of dark heresy - the developers rolled out a totally new dice system, one that barring a couple of tweaks that could have made it less superhero like - was absolutely brilliant. When the next playtest pack came back i was gutted to see that they'd returned to the % system. I've never been a huge fan of the % system - and WFRP2 always felt like they'd tried to D&D it up while keeping the % system in place (not that 2e wasn't an improvement, in many ways it was - but some of the flexibility of play was lost by being forced into the action points style system, in many ways it was a great improvement, it cleaned up the % system and made it a lot more usable - but the % system remained the weakness in the game for me). So as you can imagine, i'm pretty impressed that FFG had the spine to do what I think should have been done with 2e - and modernised the rules set. Bravo guys

Re - the price point I agree it's a lot to lay out, but when you look at what you get - the play aids, character sheet pad, the fantastic dice set, 4 full colour rulebooks - it adds up to a pretty good deal in my opinion. The card stock stuff looks to be of superb quality, and from what i've seen of the artwork and presentation, those books will be just as nice to own and read as they will to use for the game.

In the end, we're always going to have people who don't like the systems to change, but without change things stagnate (people even complained about the change away from Thac0 in d&d 3rd edition - and Thac0 was a hideous system) When all's said and done, you don't need the stuff that the company creates to play your game, the rulebook is the start, everything else is created by you - i've never played a campaign from a book that was as much fun as one my GM made up himself (Maybe i'm just lucky and my GM rocks) - i used to buy the campaign books for the extra odds and ends of background, new skill ideas, new gear, or just inspiration for my own writing etc.

Overall this new system focuses more on the storytelling, and less on the framework it hangs on - in that way it's very similar in philosophy to white wolf's storyteller system of games - probably the most elegant and brilliantly designed game mechanics i've ever had the pleasure of using - the rules system enables play, in whatever style you wish to use. You want things to be more gritty and difficult - add a default extra challenge dice to all actions. Want more gritty careers - write them - the careers aren't that complex, just a collection of stats and skills etc. What's in the box is only the beginning - it's your game and you make it into what you want.

I can't wait to get my hands on this - and i really think tha tonce people get used to the new systems, they will come to realise just how good a product this is going to be.

Sorry for the wall of text

Heh, I knew that last post of mine was going to be shocking. Anyways you can set any fears aside. FFG does look to be improving drastically. The Arkham minis are delayed until they can think ofa better way to sell them. Runewars takes place in the original FFG world of Runebound/Decent and adopts the Battlemist system old fans will love. I noticed in the article today an FFG representative actually answered a question. So it appears I was wrong.

As for Wizkids I did forget how bad they were. When I got to thinking about it, they tried to run this Shadowrun action figure game. This one guy was amazing because he took the game with passion and made all sorts of variants, but Wizkids came along and forced him to stop supporting the game. I will never forget how shocked I was when this happened to him.

I guess I just wished FFG would answer the concerns that this game is causing. Oh well, maybe they are too busy at the moment or maybe one of the articles they have saved (probably the last one) is about why to switch. They did a similar article for Warcraft Adventure game. Only it was a "Why get both" article.

Anyways just wanted to clear that up. Thanks.

dvang said:

ive done the same...i hope to run a game and ill record it and post it if FFG is ok with that