Luther said:

DnD 4E is not cheaper in anyway.....35 bucks US for a one core book.....so each player, if they are really DnD player will need to spend (on the base game alone) upwards on 105 bucks to get a PH, MM, and PH2 ......so yeah....plus if they play Forgotten Realms that another 35 bucks and then if the play eberron that another 35 bucks...and the DM is paying for DMG 1 and 2 so that another 70 bucks......so no its not cheaper

Peacekeeper_b said:

Eh, you may have been able to play with less.... but you were still paying far too much for what you got RPGs in the 80's were horribly expensive for what amounted to a few pieces of paper stapled together and a handful of dice. At least if you buy WFRP v3 you'll actually be getting something for your money.

Whew! This will be slightly long, since I missed thsi thread and need to catch up. Hold tight, I'm refuting arguments again!

PRICE POINT

I agree it's stiff as a single-product purchase. However, if you add up what you get, it's a reasonable value. Just like if I bought a DMG, PHB, MM, UA for D&D all at once (which I know lots of people have).

TOO MANY BITS

I would clarify that it *might* take up more space. It depends on your group, and if you typically used minitaures or not, and if you will use miniatures in 3e. For example, when I play I typically have my character sheet in front of me, a piece of notepaper for notes, plus my rulebook (which is usually opened to something we need rules for). That's quite a bit of space for myself as it is, so I assume the space that would be normally taken up by a rulebook will be partially taken up with cards. I think I'll even end up using *less* space. Then, if we decide not to use miniatures and instead use the 3e rules, that's less space that the large grid map we typically use will take up. So, it's a bit more subjective than you make out. There is indeed a potential to take up more space. If your group doesn't play on a table, and rarely uses anything other than the character sheets themselves, yes if you use the "bits" you'll need more space. They are more prone to loss/damage, however.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

I disagree. The stats that remain are the same, only simplified from 1-10 instead of 01-100. People didn't complain that WFB couldn't be converted to/from 1e/2e. You could do it, although it took some thought. Modifiers/Difficulties can (probably) easily be represented by adding a Challenge die or a Misfortune die for every 10%. Most of the careers look like they will be fairly similar, with similar talents/skills (although this is really hard to tell, since we haven't seen many career sheets yet). Yes, a lot has changed, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily difficicult to convert between the two. More difficult than, say, putting WFRP characters in DH/RT, yes. As difficult as converting WFRP characters into D&D 4e, no.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

Well, a game is what you make it. First, I think removing halflings makes it *more* gritty, since halflings have always been the "comic relief" in every game I've played. The split of elves makes more sense to me, and seems to me to lend a deeper and richer and grittier history to the world. I'm surprised you think the halflings bring any sort of "grittiness" to WFRP. And, they already explained that the ratcatcher was psuhed to the Toolkit because it is so great and detailed (and the small but vicious dog has it's own character sheet) that it ended up being so much that it made a great centerpiece for the toolkit. I personally don't see anything mentioned in the diaries that lessens the gritiness of the game, only the tools available for GMs and players.

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

Well, sure. More 2e books would be nice ... but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with how good or bad 3e is or whether or not someone should consider 3e. It makes sense from a business perspective, to push 3e material over 2e material, both in production time and resources. Rather than having a team split between 2e and 3e projects, they get a full team making 3e projects. At least they were extremely nice in providing *all* of the current 2e material as pdf downloads! And, since the setting is the same, you will be able to use 3e sourcebooks for 2e to a large extent.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

Honestly, based on the number and speed of the designer diaries, I'm not even sure 3e will be out before Christmas. I highly doubt November, though it's possible it might be a mid-December launch (as aiming for Christmas is usually a good, and typical, strategy). This is purely speculation on my part, of course, but I got the impression from Jay's emails and the various diaries that there is a lot more information they are planning on providing in future diaries. So anyway, my point is that it is hardly 'a month before release'. Admittedly, it was very hush hush for a long time, and they made quite a bit of progress on it before people knew. I understand why some people might feel upset, but as a 2e fan myself, I wasn't personally angered much. I wouldn't even go so far as to say it is the worst marketing ever. It might not have gone as well as they planned (and we have no idea who's decision it was. It's possible GW told them to keep a lid on it until Gencon), but that doesn't mean in some respects that an attempt to create a short-term super-buzz, rather than a long-term buzz was a bad marketing concept. Sometimes a game will sell more while the hype is highest, which is usually within a few months after announcement. Other times, building a long-term 'anticipation fan-base' will provide high sales. The danger of the long-term approach, is losing the hype/anticipation/excitement. Both are valid strategies for trying to increase sales. Their short-term approach just did not work well for a portion of their existing fanbase. In hindsight, perhaps it wasn't the best strategy to go for having this fan base.

@vyrago
clearly its because they have something to hide from the fanbase.

Again, I pointed it out as a marketing strategy. It does not necessarily mean they had something to hide.

...and warm-fuzzy RPGs where PCs never really die.

Point me to where in the WFRP 3e rules characters are less likely to die than they did in 2e. Hell, 1e and 2e both had Fate Points to prevent characters from dying. Sounds basically warm and fuzzy to me (in the sense you are talking about).

3. remake 3e as a hybrid game geared towards the kids who play WHFB or World of Warcraft.

I know lots of adults who play WHFB and WoW. In fact, more adults than kids. I also know a lot of adults that like D&D 4e (better than all previous editions of D&D). I disagree with your opinion that 3e is "a hybrid game geared toward kids". I think it can be just as "serious" as 2e. Just because it has TOOLS, like cards, to help you remember/look up information does not make it any less "serious" than 2e.

enough of this "but the artwork is cool, you want it anyways" crap.

Please point me to a thread/diary where they say or imply this. Every designer diary (including this latest one) has provided tidbits and examples of the game/gameplay showing off the new rules. Some might be more interesting to you than others, but all provide some insight into the new game. Even the last one, which was geared more towards new RPGers, gave information about how the system handles Story vs Combat times. 3e formalizes it like a play. Us old schoolers shoud appreciate that a) it makes GMing a pre-designed adventure a bit easier b) It makes creating your own adventure a bit easier. There are also some specific actions that can take place only in certain 'acts' or 'steps' of the adventure outline.

@Peacekeeper

They want your unconditional loyalty and love for a game that hasnt even come out yet and to abadon you long time affection to a game you have spent years with.
Sheesh, is that so hard to understand.

Ah, sarcasm with a pointed barb! Actually, we (well, at least me) want people to keep an open mind that the game itself could be good, even for us old-schoolers and fans of 2e. We don't want "you" (people who dislike 3e without seeing it) to mislead new people on the boards that the game is garbage or a bad game. I admit when there are things that I don't like (or are unsure about) the game. I don't even claim it's going to be the greatest game, or that its better than 2e. I might even get it and end up disliking it. However, the information that I've seen has in no way pointed (to me) that 3e is going to be a bad game, nor that it is worse than 2e. If it is at least as good as 2e (which IMO it will be from what I've seen), then it will be well worth it. Just because it isn't 2e, or didn't just update the 2e system, does not really reflect in any way how good a game 3e will be.

@darkkami

Since this is the Warhammer forum I won't even go over how greedy the Arkham minis idea is nor point out with micro econ why it is not true that having 2 minis is the only way to manage cost. If they don't sell well you will just pull the plug on them too?

As an aside: My wife and I love Arkham. We think the mini's will be a great addition to the game. I can also see FFG's point of releasing packs of 2 minis, as stated, because it makes it easier for people to buy minis that they want without also paying for a lot that they don't.

@superklaus
I would not have them produce a boxed set where only 3 players can participate. And I would not have them make a "Warhammer the Gathering" with rechargeable cards out of the roleplaying game while not even minis in combat are supported.

As I've stated before, you can play with more than 3 players. You just *might* have to share a few of the cards (assuming you even use the cards). Again, the 'rechargeable cards' is merely a tool to better organize things. It's not like 2e didn't have any spells or effects that lasted multiple rounds. It did, but in v2 you had to write it down, or place a die on the table, or find some other way to keep track of it. In 3e FFG was nice enough to give tokens you can put on the card. Nothing in functionality really changed, only the tools provided to organize it.

About dice

Ok, I admit it's a bit annoying to have new dice that can't be used for anything else. I've got hundreds of dice from my many years of playing (and some dice from my parent's playing D&D back in the 70's), and I don't really need/want more. However, after seeing the explanation of the dice mechanics, I think the mechanics are pretty good. Unfortunately, these mechanics cannot be easily replicated with standard dice with numerals. It would be much more confusing to try to sort out and interpret different numbers on different sided dice, than ones with symbols. So, to make the mechanics work reasonably, custom dice with symbols were required.

And… here we go again.

I`ve noticed that if this is the most common complaints about WFRP III, than it has little to do with the actual game/setting . Rather it’s complains about the product, which I think is a good sign. Again why this hostility between WFRP 3s and WFRP 2s? First there is no distinction between the two, so stop labeling the two sides with such names. We are all fans of WFRP. We just have a different view of FFGs take on the new edition. So let me answer as Briefly as I can about the Top 5 arguments why we dislike the new edition…

PRICE POINT
A valid point. It’s expensive, I give you that and it’s hard to get a preview of what`s in the box. But this can be overcome by asking your nice hobby Game manager to open a box for you, or better have one opened box on display for everyone to view.

TOO MANY BITS
This is hardly an argument for a new edition. This is like trying hard to come with a complaint without having anything solid to say. You will have a hard time trying to convince me that the new Warhammer roleplay is a bad one because it has too many bits. Its just toys, throw them away if you don`t like them.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE
This is very valid complaint. I have every 2nd E books there is and would hate to see them packed away or collect dust. Now unless we will have to use some convertion rules....hm

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY
As noted this was just a speculation, but still a complaint and a worrying one among those who oppose the new edition. I found the 2nd E to appear somewhat more High Fantasy than the 1st E, and I guess again WFRP III will have slight change in approach or view of the setting. But I think that the greatest shock of a change into High Fantasy has alleready been done for me going from 1st to 2nd So I am not worried.

NO NEW 2E BOOKS
Good point. Now would FFG lose any money over catering to both players of 2nd E and 3rd E? yes they will, otherwise they could have produced books for both edition

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.
I have stated in earlier and other posts, that this was an ill-advised strategy. They seem to have angered a lot of people, and even turned a few of their customers away. Sad, sad. Still I think WFRP III deserve every chance to succeed, not for FFG but for Warhammer`s sake. It’s a brilliant setting.

PRICE POINT
i have said this sooo many times...if you dont like the price...get your group to go in on it.....its not that bad....with my group of 6....its $23.00 US each....thats cheaper then one Player's handbook.....hmmmm deal? just maybe

TOO MANY BITS
many have said this before, THEN DONT USE THEM! really guys? you gana keep pushing this? come on! they are really good "aids".....lets open the distionary on this one

Aids

1. to provide support for or relief to; help: to aid the homeless victims of the fire.
2. to promote the progress or accomplishment of; facilitate.

thats second one there is the best....really brings home that fact that they arnt needed if you dont want them

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE
point. 3.5 dnd to 4e was......huge....but they are still GOOD systems for DIFFERENT people......i now dont really like 4e...doesnt mean its bad.....just means its really not for me....and most people arnt gana flame me for that....unless they arnt mature....anyway

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY
you are talking about Warhammer right? HELLO Warhammer comes from the greek meaning "overly super gritty" (totally joking) its Warhammer DUH! its gana be just a gritty as ever so long as your GM makes it that way besides....as stated before halflings are just comical....what else are they good for? or right stealing EVERYTHING right...which is funny....

NO NEW 2E BOOKS
point......but again....owell....sorry....but that happens...and would happen no matter what when a new edition comes out...the other is stopped...just how life is, im sure people said the same thing about 1e and 2e ....... owell....sorry....

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.
point.....but can you fix that...NO!!! life isnt fair....the sooner you see this the happier you will be cant have everything you want in the world....many have tried....the rich and famous....world leaders.....and they all crashed and burned.....welcome to earth....here we have cows and Jam....but you cant have both....gata pick...

This has to be said. I can play a damned gritty halfling. Try and tell my buddies halfling coachman he's not gritty and you'll likely catch a blunderbuss in the crotchal region. Halflings can be grubby, dirty little blighters and they stand about nut high. WATCH OUT!

NezziR said:

good point, but most people play a hafling in a comical way.....it just seems to fit

I don't know why, but whenever I think of Warhammer halflings, I always think of David Rappaport playing 'Rinaldo the Midget' in that movie, 'The Bride'. They creep me out a little...

I never said a halfling couldn't be played gritty. I just said, like Farin said, that most people play them in a fairly light-hearted and comical way. This also includes the majority of adventures I've seen that have NPC halflings. Their personalities are typically quite jovial (although occasionally with a sadistic streak underneath). The short description in 1e (can't find my 2e book atm) says they are friendly and easygoing, and enjoy merrymaking and eating and are the first to suggest going to the inn or bar for some food. Not very "gritty" fluff. Can they be gritty? Sure, just like you *could* roleplay a jovial happy-go-lucky dwarf. It's not what you typically find, nor what you typically think as the norm for that race, though. I was just commenting on (well, refuting) the idea that halflings make the Warhammer world "grittier", and their loss (although short-lived since they'll be coming soon) makes the world more "High Fantasy".

dvang said:

yes!!! personally i hope none of my group play one....Warhammer needs to be gritty and tough....and i know my guys will play a happy halfling.....not what i wana see...but i wont tell them not to lol....but yeah halfling to me equals "high fantasy" aswell

I think some of you are missing the fact that the "too many bits" complaint feeds into the "too expensive" one - they're not saying they care about all the extra bits being added, they care about having to pay for the all the bits they won't use in order to get the game.

Any one realise the OP is from back in August?

This one had a bit o thread necromancy done on it.

Personaly I dont realy see Elves fit the 'gritty' position anymore than the Halflings do (likely because the overuse of both as high fantasy staples), but in most cases I have found that while most people see halflings as jovial and "comic-relief" when they are PCs, as NPCs they are the least trusted of any race.

Though atleast warhammer gave me the picture of the Pyromaniac halfling (WFRP 2nd ed core p.204), which for some reason always now pops into my head when they are mentioned.. he definatly aint no Merry or Pippin

So maybe halflings are Merrys and Pippins as long as they stay in the moot - celebrating pie-week and having fun. But when they come out too the great wide world they become real bastards - for there must be a reason leaving the moot. Whenever there occurs a halfling in the BI-Novels it is a guy looking after number one. They are certainly no heros in any respect and I think that's the way to play them.

Night's Dark Masters has a Halfling Vampire Hunter in it.

I can also imagine a creepy family of Halfling grave robbers.

phobiandarkmoon said:

Quoted for truth, and I agree.

Farin said:

Not quite right. Based on your assessment of "if they are a real DnD player" then I counter with "if they are a reallyWFRP players" will need top spend $130 to get WFRP 3E core and Adventurers toolkit.

You can play DnD with just PHB and DMG (though MM is encouraged) you dont NEED anything with a number after it. And you only need one copy per group. And you can get a deal on Amazon for $66 for all 3 basic books.

Furthermore you can buy Elric for like $30 and get everything you need in one book. Etc etc....

So yeah, at this moment, WFRP 3E is more expensive. With far less pages. But a bunch of optional aids that you DONT NEED!

Farin said:

That argument can be made in reverse as well. One player's handbook divided amongst a group of six is less then $5 each.

But who takes it home? Who keeps it? What happens when you want to play the game with another group? Or someone moves?

I know in my career with a new duty station every 2-3 years and deployments down range "sharing" the cost isnt a real viable option.

I imagine very few purchasers are going to share the cost.

Me too isn't the one that sees "sharing" the cost a viable option.

And this isn't only me. In every gaming group that I've played, 95% of the time is the GM that buys the books.
Right for the reason Pacemaker mantioned.

Even more, buying as many Player's handbook as there are players, isn't very smart...

Peacekeeper_b said:

Back in the days when money was an issue (please note the slightly hidden joke in this sentence) my GM at the time used to buy new books as we needed them and divided the cost by us players. Of course he kept the books, with the argument that he, as the GM, has all the work and we players simply enjoy the game - therefore we have to pay . The argument is not that bad... I think.

Nowadays I'm the GM and buy all the books by myself... ****, something went wrong!!!

I'm also a GM and I'm buying all the book by myself. my players don't give me a peny for them but I still have much fun playing with them. It would be nice if they would give me some money to help me in our hobby but I don't want it from them - becouse I allways can say don't touch my precoius! ;p

Every time the price gets discussed someone suggests sharing the cost and prompts almost everyone else to shout at them. If your lucky enough to be in a group that shares the costs: go you! Unfortunately sharing the cost is not the norm, most GM's pay for everything themselves.

The price point is high if you're a player and just want player stuff. If you're a GM, you're spending about the same amount as you would for other games. You can't quote Amazon prices, because we don't know what Amazon will be selling it for. RT rulebook sells for $60 normally, and Amazon sells it for $48, so I expect Amazon to sell 3e for about $80 (my guess).

By the way ... I checked Amazon and there is a D&D 4th Edition Core Rulebook set, containing 3 books (DMG, PHB, MM) with a list price of $104.95. WFRP 3e Core Set has a list price of $99 and comes with a lot more stuff.

Granted, Amazon isn't selling it for the list price (quite a bit cheaper at $66.12) but the fact is that the list price is higher than WFRP. Don't expect Amazon to sell WFRP 3e for the list price either.

So, seems pretty comparable and reasonable in price in regards to the other big fantasy RPG's Core Set.

Oh, by the way, check this out ... Amazon shows the WRFP 3e .. list price $99.95 ... selling it for $62.97!

http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Core-Set/dp/1589946960/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255623794&sr=8-1

(also has estimated date of Nov 30th, but we all know Amazon isn't reliable in that deparment).

So, WFRP 3e's Core Set is still cheaper than the D&D 4e Core Set.

So please, at $62.97 that's even starting to get close to a reasonable range for Players to buy. WFRP 3e, other than not allowing players to buy just a single PHB-type book, is easily comparable in price to other RPGs. And, pretty well affordable if you order through a retailer that gives a discount, like Amazon.

dvang said:

Some of the peoples around here don't want that stuff.
And, personally, I don't think that D&D 4E isn't pricey.

dvang said:

I happe to agree with you. I was only stating those stats and facts to counter the notion that WFRP 3E is cheaper. Truth is, its pretty much the same. More or less.

dvang said:

Sorry, I thought this should be repeated. That's a great price. One of my players runs an online gamestore and that's only a few dollars above his cost (and he has to pay tax and shipping while Amazon offers free shipping). That kind of nullifies the 'it's too expensive' argument. I guess we'll have to move on to the 'it has too many bits' argument. For that, see my post about an improved character sheet.