jadrax said:

Nah. Just speculating, based on Internet chatter and what my LGS told me when I ordered the new Space Hulk game from them.

/M

DagobahDave said:

I would just point out that (as I predicted) the shift in overall forum opinion is not so much the result of people liking WFRPv3 as a matter of most of the upset fans leaving the forum. There is in fact hardly anyone that posted an angry rant on day 1 that now praises WFRPv3.

I am a bit upset that FFG did not think it was worth informing us that they were making a new edition.

I am a little upset that there will never be any more WFRPv2 supplements as I feel several were missing.

I have several concerns over the new game. The price is off putting and I would prefer not to have Board Game bits and bobs. I would like to see some proper independent reviews as unfortunately most of the information has come from people with an interest in the game's success and the so-called independent reviews have just been people that spoke to Jay Little, I have also read what Mad Alfred had to say on Strike to Stun which was short and negative, but again he has very strong WFRPv1 ties so I cannot take his opinion as gospel either.

However I am keeping an open mind (as much as possible anyway) I will most likely buy the game. As a kid I loved HeroQuest, I still have a set so if WFRPv3 turns out to be just a complex HeroQuest without a board I'm ok with that but I probably would not buy any extra supplements if that is the case. If it is a proper rpg hopefully it will be good and with a bit of luck FFG will release some new source material on subjects that have not been covered in detail to date. I mentioned in an earlier post that BI won over a lot of WFRPv1 fans by publishing resources that we had never had before.

On a sad note I find that the forums have become a much less friendly place. Now the ranting WFRPv2 fans I can understand their anger, sympathise with them and realise that the rants are a way of releasing that anger and at the risk of sounding like a hippy beginning to heal. But what I cannot understand is why the pro-WFRPv3 group keep provoking the angry WFRPv2 fans, I don't understand why they feel it's neccessary to rub salt into the wounds, I mean seriously if you saw a fat girl get dumped by her boyfriend would you walk up and say "by the way your fat with face like a dogs ass", I know I wouldn't. Now most of the Pro-WFRPv3 guys are newcomers, so I guess they don't mind upsetting the existing fans which I suppose justifies their actions much like the anger the WFRPv2 fans feel justifies their actions.

But for me the single most disappointing thing to come out of the WFRPv3 release has been DagobahDave's radical personality change. A week ago I thought Dave was a nice guy, now i think if i was hit by a car next to Dave, rather than call an ambulance he would run over and stamp on my kidneys just to make sure I was in pain. So Dave if you read this and I hope you do, take it from someone who is basically neutral your behaviour has been irrational, your rants some of worse and you have been consistantly insulting towards people that were your friends. I truly hope you go back being a nice guy one day.

The following post is as cool as I ever am, and I do apologize if anyone feels I've been unfair to them.

PRICE POINT: The high price is for the convenience of not having to keep track of everything with a paper and pencil. They could bring the price down by drastically changing the way the game works and eliminating the convenience of the cards and tokens, and the game would probably look more like a 'normal' RPG.

In the end, it seems that FFG is banking on the convenience of the game to sell it to Warhammer players. If that's not what we want, their sales will show it. There's no question that WFRP3 is designed to appeal to all kinds of hobby gamers, too, and I expect that there will be some crossover customers just based on the looks of the materials you get for $100.

Really, I'd guess that the $100 tag is the result of design choices that were probably guided by sales expectations. Nobody said capitalism was pretty!

TOO MANY BITS: This complaint is really related to the game's design -- the fact that there's a use for bits in the first place. Hopefully FFG will have an easy way to replace missing or lost parts so that this is not a problem.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE: It doesn't look like a complete overhaul. It's very different, but I see lots of resemblances to the earlier editions. Conversion doesn't look terribly difficult from where I'm standing. You remember how Attacks worked in V1, and how they were changed for V2. I think the differences are going to be like that. You can't easily translate V1's Attack characteristic to V2 because they work differently -- incompatibly, since V2's Attacks don't even come into play unless you use the Swift Attack which didn't exist in V1.

Some of V3 will be easy to convert, I think. Some of it won't. But I'm sure somebody will figure out how to translate characters from V2 to V3 and they'll post those ideas online. It won't be a perfect fit, but I think it'll be possible.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY: The setting is what it is, and we can't expect FFG to present a darker, grittier version of the Warhammer world than is currently being promoted by Games Workshop. Jay's recent thread is encouraging on the grim-and-gritty angle, though.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR: I don't remember being promised any new WFRP books specifically, so maybe they pulled an Obi-Wan. "What I told you was true, from a certain point of view." It's not cool, but I'm trying to keep in mind that FFG doesn't owe the fans nearly as much as Black Industries does/did.

This point is an emotional one, and so it's going to be different for everybody. FFG didn't force me to buy anything or swindle me into buying the PDF rulebook when V3 was already in development. I'm the only one who's responsible for how I spend my money. Knowledge is power, evidently! You don't give away your secrets if your secrets are making you money. That's just business as usual. But if I'm being totally honest, I want FFG to be better than that.

Foolishboy said:

Some of these bleeding heart, martyr WFRP v2 fans made some of the worst inflammatory and nasty posts I've ever read on these forums.

This message board is now a better place without their frothing nerd rage and condescending trolling.

Necrozius said:

You know, if Foolishboy is telling me to calm down, it's probably worth looking back over the posts I've made this week and see if maybe I'd dished out more than I should have. So I looked back over the threads. I definitely did some slinging, but the angry reactions really were out of hand.

What bothers me about this topic -- now that I've taken the time to answer the questions -- is the way the points are phrased. You have to step over insinuations of poor design or wrongdoing before you can get to something worth discussing.

I want to be helpful here, so I've thought of some ways to pose the questions so that FFG won't feel backed into a corner before answering.

* * *

1. Are you concerned that the game's price may keep it out of reach of most gamers' budgets?

2. Can you tell us how you arrived at the use of cards and tokens for the game?

3. How will we be able to replace damaged or lost components? Will there be blank cards or extra tokens for this eventuality?

4. The game seems radically different from earlier editions. Will it be easy to convert characters?

5. Should we expect the new game to match the look and feel of more recent Warhammer games such as Age of Reckoning?

6. Were you aware that many fans were expecting new releases for WFRP2 prior to the announcement of the new edition?

7. Are there any plans to continue producing material for WFRP2?

I've pretty much stopped posting because there is no point. The default position seems to be hopeful and positive despite coming from the same information as those who think it won't be any good.

It's clear FFG wants to go in a very specific direction with Warhammer roleplay, a direction I don't like but I'm sure others will.

The only things I'm waiting on are confirmation that character stats are pretty much identical at creation for the same career due to dice as stats and that NPCs are mooks.

@Luther, Dagobahdave has been arguing against the same points since the forum opened and I'm not surprised he's tired of repeating his arguments everytime someone posts the same things again.

I wonder if FFG realised the kind of baggage they'd be getting when they bought WFRP. It has one of the strongest, loudest and most loyal fanbases of any RPG.

One thing I'm glad about WFRP 2 was it got me to learn Indesign and graphic design so I could produce documents for it to the same quality. Now I can put that to use writing more stuff for the game without concerning myself that FFG will print an official version. It's not sollace, but it's true.

At the moment it would take some mighty big concept choices to change my mind. Heroic roleplay is not for me. The argument that you can always work it fit that if you want is a cop out. It is easier to scale up than it is to scale down and with custom dice as stats it doesn't look tinker friendly.

If anyone wants to show support for WFRP2 they should buy the pdf after WFRP3 has come out. Buying it now won't really help, but once the other one is available it simply shows which you'd rather get. It's also something like 1/5th the price in pdf so you could suggest others get it because it's cheaper.

Hellebore

I've been reading over al lthese threads and decided to gather the most realistic complaints ('it isn't an RPG' is not one of them) into one thread to try and clarify why so many folks are up in arms and try to work those out. Here are the downsides of 3E as I see it, and I think it would be a great show of respect for the community if Jay himself would answer some of these (I ain't holding my breath, however):

This seems to be one of the least 'ranty' posts regarding the negative points of 3e I've seen yet. I see some potential positives and negatives in the game, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I also think you're missing an important point - the one that concerns me more than any of the others, so I'll throw that in last.

PRICE POINT

I was initially shocked by the price, but realised that if I get it, I'd be saving money compared to the alternative. As the GM I buy the majority of the books myself. This means that I've got a couple thousand € worth of WFRP supplements on my shelves, 1st + 2nd ed. Many of you seem to have forgotten the complaints when the 2e core book came out, 'cause it was an expensive and incomplete game. The bestiary was a joke. You could play it without the OWB, but you weren't really getting the full Warhammer experience.

Buying the four books in the core seperately would probably cost more than the $100 price tag we see now. But I agree that it's a lot of money to throw down for a game. I think it's good value for money, but overcoming that initial reluctance to fork over the cash will hurt their sales.

TOO MANY BITS

Not a problem for me, especially if it results in a smoother game experience. I was initially worried about the "1 GM + only 3 players" issue, but we've been reassured that you can play with more than that with the core, it'll just mean sharing cards 'n the like.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

A reasonably valid complaint, but not one I consider an issue myself. I play lots of games with lots of different systems. The WFRP system isn't genius by any means, it's showing its age. I think that 3e has the potential to introduce a much better system. Admittedly it also has the potential to introduce a crap system - we'll have to wait and see. Personally I like a lot of what I've seen of the dice mechanic - my only remaining doubt in this regard is to how flexible it will be (if a PC comes up with something not directly covered by the rules - like swinging from a chandelier to kick an orc in the face - will the GM be able to adjudicate it within the rules, or have to improv a new "swing from changelier" action card?).

Regarding converting old material - again, not something I think will really be a problem, at least system wise. I've converted 1e adventures to 2e and I've played in a game where the GM just used the 1e statblocks without making an effort to take 2e changes into account. It takes more work than you'd think. The stats look similar (as in they have the same names and are percentile), but they tend to have different values, especially for higher level play. I eventually found it easier to just ignore the printed statblock completely and come up with my own from scratch. Doing the same with 3e shouldn't be any harder.

A bigger issue is whether the older material is thematically suitable. Will 3e adventurers be doing the kinds of adventures that you see in tEW or AoM? Thankfully the answer so far seems to be "sure." If that's true, then no problem. If 3e is more about killing things and taking their nice shiny magic +2 longswords...

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

We'll see. Not much point commenting until we get more, but we do now that ratcatchers will be an available career. Wardancers are a career that should have been available as an advanced career in 1e and 2e and almost certainly would have had an elven supplement been released. With WEs as a player race it makes sense to have the option to play them.

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

Unfortunate, yes, but realistically there wasn't going to be many more 2E books, if any. WFRP just wasn't profitable enough any more to be worth it. 2E fans may feel that they are entitled to more books - they aren't. FFG has only so much money to invest in its lines. Giving money to keep an unprofitable WFRP line running would be taking cash from fans of their other, more successful lines to subsidise the game we like. We aren't any more entitled than fans of the BSG boardgame.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

Yeah, this just sucked. I'm more annoyed by their failure to explain the new game properly than the lack of information beforehand, however. The information on the website sucks. To get any real idea of what the game is like we've had to rely on posts from fans who attended the seminar with Jay Little.

Regarding the (lack of) information beforehand, that's becoming more and more common in the gaming industry these days. It may seem weird, but the backlash from fans kept in ignorance has been determined to be less problematic than the potential backlash that results when you tell the fans something that later turns out not to be true. Things change throughout the development of a game, but some fans tend to interpret such changes as lies and betrayals. An angry fan is one that complains to his friends, leading to negative connotations with the company. "Oh yeah, FFG, aren't they that company that totally lied to the fans that time?" Keeping quiet also angers some people, but the companies have calculated that it hurts them less than the alternative.

And now, my own concern:

LIMITED CHARACTER CREATION OPTIONS:

I think Hellebore touched on this, though his concerns seem to be more about similar statlines, something that doesn't bother me as much. I'm more worried about the small number of careers in the core. Now, a lot of the old careers were superfluous, mostly hangovers from 1e. We didn't really need a Soldier, Mercenary, Marine and Militia careers. They could all have been represented by a 'warrior' career quite easily. But 40 careers... and how many of those will be advanced ones? How many basica careers will their be? 20? 10? And how much differentiation will there be between two characters with the same career?

Assuming it's a roleplaying game - which I think we can now safely say is the case - I'll do with 3rd edition what I did with 2nd and 1st: use the bits I like and ignore the bits I don't like. Personally I never cared for the percentile system, so I'm happy to try something new. But I do understand the concerns of people who don't feel the need for a change and were quite happy with things as they were.

I think we can assume that this has been the plan ever since the game was handed to FFG - it takes a long time to develop an entire new edition and I reckon the Career Compendium and Shades of Empire were just placeholders while they beavered away at this new incarnation.

I'm optimistic about 3rd edition and I trust Jay Little's judgement and determination to improve the system, while staying true to the spirit of the game. We'll see how it turns out, but as I said, if there are aspects I don't like - as there were in 2nd edition - I'll just ignore them or houserule them.

PRICE POINT

Not actually an issue for me personally. Plenty of other people have made similar comments, but I've had plenty of situations where I've easily spent this much on gaming stuff in one go (just pre-ordered the new Space Hulk this week, which must be coming close).

However that's just me. I can see this being a big issue for other players with less money and/or more sense than me, which includes most of my gaming group. And the argument that if I've bought it (as the most-likely GM anyway) then the players don't need to just doesn't work either. I have the kind of players who like to buy at least the core rulebook/player's handbook just so that they know how to play the game, that's just not an option in this case.

Also, in order to actually play this game as a group we're going to need at least one copy of the player's toolkit to accomodate the extra players and probably more dice as well. In order to satisfy my players personal preferences as to what they want from WFRP, we're also going to have to buy whichever supplement has the rules for halflings (see below). That pushes the price up another level.

TOO MANY BITS

The much larger surface required is a real issue for me. I've detailed this elsewhere so I'm not going to rehash it here but suffice it to say that this really pushes the game into the realms of being completely unfeasable to run without moving house first.

The risk of components getting lost is another issue. If the cards are duplicates of information found in the books then this isn't such a problem, but if they're the only source of that information (as tends to be the case with FFG products) then it's a lot more serious.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

Remains to be seen whether or not the new system is better than the old one or not (I don't like what I've seen so far, but admit we don't have enough info yet).

However, it appears that the new system is completely incompatible with WFRP2. Which means that all my old supplements are useless (except for the fluff) unless I put a LOT of time and effort into conversions, which I simply don't have either the time or inclination to do.

The fact that you only seem to have 6 stats, plus a much reduced list of available skills (from what we saw of the character sheet at Gencon) would support these assumptions, as well as what's available from the career card that we've seen.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

The quote from Graham McNeill really worries me here, when he said that previous editions simply don't capture the feel of Warhammer. It implies (if not flat-out states) that WFRP3 is aimed at capturing a different feel to WFRP2.

The lack of halflings in the core set really is a deal breaker for me here, and for at least one of my players as well. The implication that high and wood elves are separate races is also worrying from a background point pof view.

Putting together what little information we have seen tends to imply that the game is aimed towards a more high-powered, combat-heavy approach. Again, that may not be the case and even if it is it may well be possible to do the more diplomatic type of game as well. But this worries me...

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

This is really just the incompatibility thing again. If it was going to be easy to convert WFRP3 stuff to use in WFRP2 then it might not be such an issue.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

Not much to say here. If they'd gone out of their way to try and come up with a product launch that pissed off as many people as possible I'm not sure they could have done a better job.

This was FFG's second stab at greed and milking a franchise they own witha reboot. They did this with World of Warcraft also. I now agree that FFG made a horrible marketing decision. Sorry Fantasy Flight Games, but I can not defend what was done here. If I don't set things straight then other kids and fanboys will just buy into another failing product when you decide it needs a "reboot".

FFG never looks for ideas outide the minds of their devs (Corey, Christian, Kevin) Eric Lang was just too good to pass up I guess. They never do polls or directly ask the community "what would you like us to do?". They instead give us a "Wishing Well"...how many wishes has a wishing well made come true for you? I have yet to see anything come out of those forums as a new game. Everything seems to be rehashes (Close Encounter, Talisman, Chaos Marauders) or an already made product with tweaks (Tanhausser, UFS, Warhammer/Dark Heresy).

Just like Marvel, DC, Games Workshop, and Blizzard they ignore complaints or low sales. They make up excuses as to why sales are down (at the moment they are using the bad economy scapegoat I bet). They don't let any of the players know if a product is dying before releasing an expansion (another way to get more money from dieing products). Marvel doesn't think sales are down because making Tony Stark a villain or erasing Spiderman's entire past of comics was a bad idea. DC refuses to believe having Batman die because he uses a "god killing gun" has nothing to do with low sales. Games Workshop thought deciding to lower unit point cost so that more money was required to field an army was a good idea despite the negative reaction. Blizzard said screw the fanboys we want more money so add more PVP and kill Arthas and the lore we don't need them.

All of the above companies have lost their objectives that made them so great. As we can see now almost everything FFG is doing atm is directed toward Warhammer. Invasion, Chaos marauders, Chaos in the old world, Rogue Trader, and Warhammer FRP 3.0.

Let's look at other major licenses they acquired.
Disney/Squaresoft ... don't see an news for Kingdom Hearts cards next expansion. Yet I have seen the next 3 months of Invasion plans. (They releases one last expansion to bleed the last money they could)
Blizzard still waiting on the remaining characters for WoW Adventure Game and the expansion for the Board Game.

If I am wrong. Don't say anything. Don't correct me UNLESS you work for FFG. I send them articles all the time at their request and they don't even respond as to when I can see them or when they are getting posted.

Take this into consideration whom ever is modding the forums and sees this. If it wasn't for Eric Lang I would not be buying FFG products anymore. But I support him and the work he does. Same goes for Richard Borg whom I see at Sci Fi City every now and then.

Can't wait to see you guys come up with something as original as Twilight Imperium instead of rehashing acquired licenses or buying sucessful original ideas to slap the FFG logo on. Until then I have to give you the wag of my finger.

Since this is the Warhammer forum I won't even go over how greedy the Arkham minis idea is nor point out with micro econ why it is not true that having 2 minis is the only way to manage cost. If they don't sell well you will just pull the plug on them too?

Why is it that the honest companies like Wizkids have to be punished?...

darkkami said:

A. Because they don't know how to make money.

B. Because they make crap products.

Also, I'm amused by your choice of Wizkids as an example of an 'honest' company, since they were guilty of many of the 'crimes' that you accuse FFG of.

darkkami said:

Its strange to see you in this mood, especially considering the fact that you have been one of the most strongest supporters of 3rd ed. on this forums in the past. What happened?

I think the points you brought have been true. But they are also true with other companies in our hobby like WotC. Remember they draw back all pdfs from previous editions from one day to another. It think that there are only few companies in our hobby who are worth to be respected. (eg. triple ace games or pinnacle) Forget the rest. These companies dont respect us as customer (only our wallets) and thus have absolutely no right be be respected themselves. This nasty corporate behaviour has already has begun with the TSR money grabbers in the 90ties after the Gary Gygax has left the company.

Luther said:

This is not much a problem for me. I think if the game is good for hundreds of hours of entertainment then its worth even more than 100 bucks.

Luther said:

Yes. Too many bits. Good for those who played their rpgs always like boardgames in the past. Bad for real roleplayers who dont want to have a flip chart for visiting a merchant for buying a hat.

Luther said:

No problem for me. I am open to changes, but only if the changes are good. Lets face 2nd ed. was not really good. With all its additional books it had even alot of unnecessary rules over the years. But I dont think that the 3rd edition rules are a good change and solve this problem. Rather they are a further complexification without any gain for players experience.

Luther said:

Again not a big problem for me. (a small maybe) GW and Mythic as the biggest producers for this setting think thats it is high fantasy too. Its a change of paradigm from 1st and 2nd edition though and kills the past outright. The problem is rather the way it will be presented. If it is presented like Mickymouse-Fantasy DnD and WoW or is it presented as a high Fantasy game for mature players?

Luther said:

Well I am in if they release 3e material which didnt appear in 2e. Like an Ulthuan, Tilea or Land of the Death sourcebook. If not I will not spend a single dollar on this release.

Luther said:

Yes. But I dont think that is was accidential. Such a sneaky attitude is rather the trademark of money grabbing companies and we have several of them in our hobby.

superklaus said:

To me it's funny that, every time a company publishes a new edition of an RPG when the previous is still played, we always get this kind of arguments... Comparing TSR, GW or FFG with a corporation as if it was the same thing as Microsoft, Shell or a big bank or similar big companies is quite unfair because:

a. You can survive without their products...

b. Their products are not expensive... RPGs and boardgames are probably the cheapest entertainment out there...except lying on a meadow doing nothing...

c. They bring a revival to an RPG. Looked at what happened with WFRP... The game was dead, dead, dead... A lot of people were asking for more stuff, yet no company took the risk to publish new material, and we the fans suffered in silence... until WFRP2 came... people were not happy just because the game was superb in quality, they were happy because we got more WFRP stuff...

d. I like getting paid when I work... I I'm risking my money in a venture, then I also don't want to lose money...

So, in my opinion, when reading these kind of arguments, I get the impression of a 5-year old that is angry because other people are not working their a**es off to provide him with cheap entertainment... FFG or GW are not going to pay spies to prevent you from adding any sort of material to a Warhammer campaign... If you feel you can do better than them, then do the effort and write your own stuff for your campaigns, dude... it'll be free but you'll see the time and effort it takes (and I have experience creating stuff for my old D&D campaigns)...

What would you have GW and FFG do? It is obvious they are risking their money in this venture, so if they decided to go for WFRP3 it is clear to them that publishing more material for WFRP2 was not in their economic interest... So, if they had not gone with WFRP3, then they would have published exactly nothing... then, instead of just having several guys annoyed and crying wolf, all of us would suffer, because we would get no new material...

I tell you something... I bet my collection of WFRP2 books (I have them all) that the day we get a 2nd edition of Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader we will get the same comments you are doing now, unless this happens in 30 years, when nobody else cares about the game or everybody is so anxious of getting new material that they don't bother...

cogollo said:

Well my answer is simple: I would have them informed the unwashed masses of warhammer fans that another version in in planning 1 year or longer from now and not sneaking around without information. I would them NOT have produce proprietary material like special dice and special cards without those the game is not playable. I would not have them produce a boxed set where only 3 players can participate. And I would not have them make a "Warhammer the Gathering" with rechargeable cards out of the roleplaying game while not even minis in combat are supported. That would I have FFG do.

superklaus said:

At this point you may say "thank you" to all those f****** pirates out there who think that copying a book is as legal and ok as copying music or movies. That's the consequence!

PzVIE said:

If this is true its not necessary to act in such way only to prevent piracy. But I dont even think thats it is about piracy. I think they just want to make more money with their special dice. So they design their game not around the need of better roleplaying. Instead they design it around their need as an source of income in the hope noone checks it.

BTW: wo ma überoi die weana fint?...

PzVIE said:

Exactly... That's why I consider myself a sort of patron for RPG and boardgaming companies... I work tough, I get my money and I spend as much as I can in promoting the companies that give me the entertainment I want... That's why I will always buy FFG products, because they are great quality and fun to play... until they start doing crap, at which time I'll stop buying from them...

For the same reason I bought all WFRP2 stuff, I almost always buy Blizzard products (except WoW, which I hate), Valve products (long live Left 4 Dead and Half Life!) and many other products from companies which products I like... That way I am promoting the companies that produce the stuff I like: a simple mechanism.

Bottom line is, if you don't like a product then don't buy it (thus telling clearly to the company that it should not go that way) and attack the company saying the product in question sucks... but attacking a company by saying they want to earn too much money sounds ludicrous to me... Ask anybody in the world if they are paid according to their effort and I'm quite sure most people will tell you they are not paid enough...

Yup. Spending a few hundred $/€ is not a bad investment considering the hundreds hours of fun you get in return. And my RPG games are a lot cheaper than a lot of my boardgames, if you divide the total cost by the hours you've spend playing it. So, supporting the system of your choice by actually buying products keeps it alive. Piracy hurts the hobby.

@superklaus: host leicht glaubt du bist allanich?

cogollo said:

cogollo said:

This speaks for itsself. FFG do SOME good games. Others are just crap. Buying everything from them just because its labeled FFG sounds for me like fanboiism. But everybody to his own.

The problem with the Warhammer franchise is that it offers some really good ideas. So its not only black or white. You can like a setting (or many elements of it) and at the same time you can criticize the company which publish it because they treat their fanbase like idiots. (I admit sometimes not even without reason)

There are only a few hobby companies which earn my respect. One of those is pinnacle. Those guys are like us and produce games for us. (and make a decent living out of it too)

"A company who's bottom line is to maximize profit? why that is just inconvincible"

Yeah, I heard that Coca-Cola didn't really want to teach the world to sing, after all.

superklaus said:

I don't buy all games from FFG. I regularly buy games from FFG because their quality is generally great... Arkham Horror, Descent, War of the Ring, Tide of Iron, Twilight Imperium, Battlestar Galactica... any of these games has given me more hours per € spent than most other entertainment I have (the only exception I can think of is my LesPaul guitar)...

As for the rest of your post, I don't agree... I don't feel treated like an idiot by FFG just because they are publishing WFRP3... I think you don't still realise that if FFG (or GW for that matter) were not publishing WFRP3 nobody would publish more stuff for Warhamme roleplaying universe and we would be stuck again like in the 90s, before WFRP2 was published...

So, you don't like strange looking cards or dice and that's why you feel mistreated... You know, this brings to me a "dejà vu"... in 1988 I found, in my local bookshop, a forgotten copy of the red box from D&D being sold at a discount. I had just finished reading Lord of the Rings so I was attracted by the box and spent two months of the money my parents gave me for cinema and toys in the box... when my grandpa show the box and its contents (the red D&D box came with a full set of dice) and I told him what it had cost me he was outraged: "Damned greedy people! Cheating a poor kid of his money for a bunch of silly dice!"... that's more or less what he said... isn't it the same as what you are saying about WFRP3 here?

monkeylite said:

monkeylite said:

They did, but only if they used the right dice and cards.

cogollo said:

Grandpa sounds like a wise man. You know how much money I would have saved if he was present when I bought my first red box. Wow!

All jokes aside, I think a set of polyhedon dice is a far cry from 30 some dice and 300 some cards plus more in expansions. Face it, despite three or ten players, all you needed to play the red box was that set of dice and they were easily replaced.

And could be used in other games.