I've been reading over al lthese threads and decided to gather the most realistic complaints ('it isn't an RPG' is not one of them) into one thread to try and clarify why so many folks are up in arms and try to work those out. Here are the downsides of 3E as I see it, and I think it would be a great show of respect for the community if Jay himself would answer some of these (I ain't holding my breath, however):

PRICE POINT

All the bits and bobs necessary to the games function push the price point up too high. For a starter set, it is out of the range of most (sensible) gamer's budgets and will most likely cause a more than a few new gamers to pass it up for D&D4E or some other, cheaper, substitute. To add to that, there is no way to 'preview' the game, say by flipping through the books, to know if it is a worthwhile use of a C-Note.

TOO MANY BITS

With all the different card decks, custom dice and other assorted shinies, the game requires a much larger surface to use and the chance of losing important pieces to damage or loss becomes a problem.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

One of the big complaints about 4E was the lack of backwards compatibility with previous editions. From the looks of things, WFRP3e does this to the nth degree. Outside of setting material (which may also be different), it appears that using 1-2e stuff with 3e and vice-versa, will be extremely challenging if not downright impossible.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

This is merely speculation, but when a WFB designer says that 3e is more Warhammer like than either 1e or 2e, flags are going to go up that the 'Grim and Perilous' setting is going to get a makeover along the lines of WFB or WAR. The removal of Halflings and Rat Catchers from the basic set and the addition of High Elves and Wardancers doesn't help this perception...

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

Pretty obvious, really, but those who like 2e are still waiting for a lot of material that never materialized.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

Really, this sort of thing isn't something you just spring on your customer base a month before release (and if it weren't for GRaham McNeil's blog, we probably would have been in the dark until Gencon). As a company, building up hope by insinuating new books are coming out for a beloved game and reassuring the fans that it isn't dead, but not letting the consumers know that you're talking about something completely different to the current edition, is kind of, well...let's just say it isn't a nice thing to do to loyal customers and is the best way for your forum boards to burst into flames...

I appreciate a clear and mature post like this. I just wanted to comment on these points from another perspective, a person like me that is excited to play this new edition. Oh, and I have been a Warhammer fan for years (most of the games, the WHFRP, WFB, Warhammer Quest, Warhammer Online, etc...).

PRICE POINT

This might seem high for a starter set, but it really does look like you get your money's worth. I consider myself a sensible gamer (I'm a college student, I work part-time, and I have to buy my own games) and I am definitely throwing down the $100 to buy this game the day my FLGS has it in stock. To people that like this format of an RPG, the box set is a great deal.

TOO MANY BITS

This is just objective. I love RPGs and I love games like Descent. My biggest problem with Descent is lack of story and purpose. Story is something that makes up an RPG, so to have that along with the beautiful components that FFG is known for just means more fun for me and my gaming group. I'm also guessing that if you aren't like me, there would probably be a way to play with out the bits. From what I gather, and from what I've heard from Jay, these bits are strictly playing aids.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

I guess I'm a minority in the gaming world because I like change. I can always go back and play my old game systems but I love when a company brings out a new edition of a game I love so I can try it out. Especially with a game world I love like Warhammer.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

Again, I like this idea because I am a big fan of WHFB. I also bet that you can tweak the setting to fit your gaming group's style...it's a roleplaying game.

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

This would sure stink for people wanting more 2E books. I for one am not bothered by it but that doesn't mean others aren't. Hopefully some of you 2E will be able to use some of the new 3E for your games with a few tweaks.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

Games evolve. It's a two-way street I guess, you might feel betrayed by a company that didn't announce a new system but others, like myself, are thrilled about a new RPG system coming out from their favorite company. Players of the 2E have had fun with it for years and nothing is stopping them from continuing their 2E games. They have lots of source books to play with. All of us excited about 3E don't have anything to read yet.

I kind of like all that stuff that you dislike.

I TOTALLY agree on worst marketing campaign ever. There wasn't much point in opening up this forum until they got people excited with some sneak-peaks..right now, it's just a sounding board for WFRP2 fans in the "anger" stage of mourning. I've never seen so much lobbying to "hate a game before anyone even knows what it is" in my life. I didn't see this same grognarding when WAR came out, yet that sucked more players out of WFRP than any other event in history.

The five stages of grief are...

jh

I gotta agree with many points Sorenthion. Save for the high fantasy aspect, which I can deal with. Some a total 'reboot' works great, like the latest Star Trek movie. other times it ends up being more of a joke, like D&D 4e which I can tell alot of warhammer players would agree with. Your best point was about the marketting and info campaign. absolute garbage and all one really needs to do is apply simple to logic to read behind the lines. Why be so tight-lipped about the game in general? clearly its because they have something to hide from the fanbase. They know that this game is steering into board/cardgame country and that there will be a negative reaction by many in the community. Like D&D 4e, they dont care about losing to gain new ones. alls fair as they say. When they started pitching Rogue Trader, the info campaign was top notch and many players knew exactly what the game entails. 3e warhammer has led to rumors, speculation, fears and criticism. The community smells a rat. The only real 2 points which proponents seems to make is 1. its still an RPG and 2. you can still do all the same things as before. Roleplaying games are changing, not in a good way I'd argue. D&D 4e has spearheaded this new paradigm towards the younger video game generation of instant gratification and warm-fuzzy RPGs where PCs never really die. FFG really had no choice in a way. they could have done 3 things as I see it.

1. do nothing and keep making 2e stuff. not alot of money to made that way since alot of 2e stuff has already been made.

2. remake 3e as a more mature, robust, adult horror-fantasy RPG that would appeal to only a small demographic. (Dark Heresy is close to this idea)

3. remake 3e as a hybrid game geared towards the kids who play WHFB or World of Warcraft.

its clear which option makes sense for them, and just like D&D 4e there will be the old guard kicking and screaming about the good old days. many of us old schoolers will get sucked in, try to change and adapt by buying 3e. we'll give it the old college try but likely be left feeling something is missing.

If FFG really wants to save this (and it really wouldnt cost them much), then they should post a quick-start rules or at least a healthy example of play for all to read. enough of this "but the artwork is cool, you want it anyways" crap.

Luther said:

Well, if you hold your current fans/customers in total contempt, what they're doing makes perfect sense. "Most of you retards will buy whatever we set in front of you. As for the rest of you... we didn't like you or your money anyways."

Either they hold their fans in rotten contempt, or it's a tremendous marketing ultrafail.

LUTHER: I've been reading over al lthese threads and decided to gather the most realistic complaints ('it isn't an RPG' is not one of them) into one thread to try and clarify why so many folks are up in arms and try to work those out.

Nope, it's just the same rant we've seen many times before. You haven't left any room for argument that the game might actually be a good one. If, after reading all of the these threads (which even I can't claim to have done), you still have these complaints, then there's nothing any of us can say to convince you.

So don't try to pass it off as anything but a rant. Give us something that you do like about the game that we can talk about.

vyrago said:

...Or geared towards more casual gamers.

...Or for those with little time on their hands.

...Or for players who don't take their RPGs super-duper seriously and just want a beer and pretzels Friday night game, which is in no way a bad thing (my girlfriend might actually want to try it).

DagobahDave said:

Ridiculous, the guy tried to tell you, in an even calm manner the things that he didn't like and accuse him of ranting. Make your mind on you want guys, either you want civil discourse over the issue, or you don't.

Yep they might need to get their marketing school money back, but hey! We don't really know anything about the other game until a real independent user review materializes...

Luther said:

Many complain about the space the game takes. No problem for me, I got a table in my house. I also put things back in the box, so parts don't get lost.

I'm not sure how total the system change is. But the WFRP2 book were light on rules and heavy on background. As I see it the most important part can be used directly.

"The setting is more high fantasy" is what the grognards told me about WFRP2 too. I didn't belive them, and I was right.

Luther said:

Shadowspawn, where's the room for discussion in there? How can anyone make the impossible seem possible to Luther? He doesn't invite debate or discussion. It's a list of complaints and that's all. Not a single positive (or even hopeful) thing to say about the game.

And if Luther had really read every thread here -- even just the first post on the facts about WFRP3 thread -- he could have listed some of the reasoned explanations that have been offered for his complaints before expecting anyone to re-hash them for him.

But he's ignored or dismissed every one of them already. So how can anything we say here change that?

Shadowspawn said:

They want your unconditional loyalty and love for a game that hasnt even come out yet and to abadon you long time affection to a game you have spent years with.

Sheesh, is that so hard to understand.

MISPOST.

Stupid forum boards jacked up the whole post.

DagobahDave said:

Dude, I don't know where all this bile is coming from. There is plenty of room for discussion. In fact, the quote you used actually says "it appears that using 1-2e stuff with 3e and vice-versa, will be extremely challenging if not downright impossible" not "I know for a fact this is the case." I am simply asking to see some proof that this is not the case and so far, there is none.

All my points are the results fo collecting the concerns of posters spread all over this board and puttign them in a form that Jay or anyone else who has played the game can answer. A few are known and I give my opinion on them, while others are clearly stated as being opinions based on what we have been allowed to see.

Of course, my last point, which I'm sure you refute and take as a personal attack on your very deepest belief system, is the reason all of these points have come up in the first place. All this could be avoided if FFG would shine a bit more light on those subjects...

PRICE POINT

With the recession still hurting the price is an issue, even though there are claims that it is a fair price. Box-sets are always going to cost more than a basic hardback book, which in turn will put people off.

TOO MANY BITS

Not sure if this is an issue as some would suggest these are player-aids only, although this means I’m purchasing bits of kit that I will not ever use.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

Something I can live with as I’ll adapt ideas used in WFRP3 to be used in WFRP2, how hard can it be?

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

Again I can live with this as long as the game is not presented as better fitting to the Warhammer image than previous editions. My personal preference is to both high and low fantasy aspects, but can understand how some may feel more strongly on the subject.

Perhaps an overview on what careers are to be included would give a better understanding of its setting?

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

Sadly no, but if there is a WRFP3 Elf, Tilea, Estalia, etc sourcebook its not an issue as I’ll convert what I can into use for WFRP2!

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

Totally

Even if a re-boot is needed, as many have pointed out, the treatment of fans and the use of misdirection is insulting.

LUTHER wrote: All the bits and bobs necessary to the games function push the price point up too high. For a starter set, it is out of the range of most (sensible) gamer's budgets and will most likely cause a more than a few new gamers to pass it up for D&D4E or some other, cheaper, substitute. To add to that, there is no way to 'preview' the game, say by flipping through the books, to know if it is a worthwhile use of a C-Note.

That's a loaded question. Actually, it's not a question at all. What is this asking?

"It costs too much for sensible gamers. Without a preview, how can we know if it's worth $100?"

Before he can address that issue, Jay would have to diplomatically dismantle your assumption that only stupid gamers with a lot of money are interested in this game.

It might be some good news to you to know that Jay's already said previews are the on the way. And you can always wait for customer reviews to help you make up your mind

Luther, it was easy to pick apart your question for what it was (a rant) and answer your question about previews without insisting that the game designer (who is busy) pay attention to you and the disappointed fans that you want to represent.

That's a dwindling number, by the way. You can see the shift in opinion from six days ago on every forum where they're talking about it. Rants like these will keep cropping up (and being compiled into new posts and posted up again) for a while but eventually we'll turn to the game itself and discuss its merits and flaws in a reasonable way.

Until then I'll still be here, eating crow.

I am not 100% sure that driving people away before they can even see the previews is a achievement actually worth cheering over.

jadrax said:

I don't know that Jay's even the right person to ask about the whole V3 "sneak attack". FFG has other people for public relations, so that's probably a quesion for them.

DagobahDave said:

DagobahDave said:

None of whaty I posted are questions. They are collected points.

And when I say 'sensible' I don't mean stupid. I mean those who are more concerned where their money goes due to personal responsibilities that outway those of college students and other younger folks who are still getting the basics taken care of by mom and dad so they can spend $100 on entertainment without having to do a personal budget first.

And stop calling it a rant. The fact that you don't like what I have to say doesn't make it a rant. Ranting on about how much I'm ranting is a rant. And besides, if you don't like it, why did you even come to this thread? It clearly states the subject material in the title, so why come here if you're not going to make sensible counterpoints like the others have...?

DagobahDave said:

Take a good long look in the mirror and ask yourself who is really ranting. The guy's raised some points and expressed his own personal views, nothing to be so worked up over.

Due to lack of information revealed so far in regard to WFRP3 and the way that FFG introduced the game, the boards are going to be like this until FFG get their act together and give us some information. I'm interested in the game and also wary, does this mean I can't post until I see something I like?

DagobahDave said:

Would Jay not have any involment or contact with other departments. No wait, my company is about the same and I work in the communication industry!

LUTHER: None of whaty I posted are questions. They are collected points.

If that's true, then what did you mean when you wrote this?

LUTHER: All my points are the results fo collecting the concerns of posters spread all over this board and puttign them in a form that Jay or anyone else who has played the game can answer.

So they're not questions, but you'd like answers. They're just a collection of things that you think are flawed about the game and its marketing that no one is expected to answer.

Yeah, I had kinda figured that out.

DagobahDave said:

As in they're points but if Jay or someone else would like to dispute them, then they can answer them with a response that proves the point wrong.

But you know what, Dave. I'm tired of you're trying to pick my post apart. Frankly, you're just being a troll at this point, so please, If you would like to address the points given, then feel free but if you've got nothing to add to this conversation but yet another attempt to twist my post around to make me seem like a jerk, then please find another thread to that doesn't offend you so, cause frankly, you're not doing anything but making this one unnecessarly long and argumentative.

As for the rest of you, good points. I can see where some of you are coming from and I'm gratified that you are also understanding where we 'grognards' are coming from as well. I for one accept the fact that my time as part of the main demographic is probably passed, but I don't begrudge you the excitement over a new game. It kind of reminds me of when I first picked up WFRP 1E after moving on from D&D. That game had me at 'Hello...'

I'll add my thoughts.

PRICE POINT

It feels high. I'll pay it, I've bought more expensive RPGs than that before. I'm worried about the effect it has on people wanting to try out the game.

TOO MANY BITS

We already have a big table where we play, so that's not a problem. We have played Arkham Horror at quite small tables, and I suspect it will be alright with this game as well.

TOTAL SYSTEM CHANGE

Haven't seen enough of the system to know, but it feels like a big step away from WFRP traditions in some ways. We'll have to see if this enhances the game, or if it makes it less appealing to me. I'm undecided, for me the setting and atmosphere has always been the most important parts of WFRP, not the system.

SETTING IS MORE HIGH FANTASY

I don't know enough about the setting to have any comment on that.

NO NEW 2E BOOKS

Sure there are a lot of things that weren't released, but that would have been the case no matter how many books they released for WFRP. You can never ever cover all bases.

THE WORSE MARKETING AND INFO CAMPAIGN. EVAR.

The game isn't going to be released until december. So the marketing campaign has just barely started. It's been less than a week or so since the press release, and during that time FFG were at GenCon, working their asses off. Lining them against the wall now is in my opinion an extreme display of fan entitlement and impatience. And no, this is not the worst marketing and info campaign ever. There are plenty others in the annals of advertising that are magnitude worse than this, and this is not even a campaign yet. I'll give it time before I pass judgement.

/Magnus

MagnusSeter said: